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beefcake4000

Is HOTE going to fix the balance? Sentry droids Vs Weequays

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Won't speak for the rest of you but I know I'm really hoping that HOTE balances our competitive meta until we see something other than hunters and Jedi Luke doing well again. The problem I have though is that when I look at the new stuff I'm just not sure I'm seeing any great thought going into it... Consider sentry droids for example.... 

Generic sentries (6pts) vs E-Weequays (7 points), given that Weequays are renowned as the new hotness and this is documented beyond a joke surely they should become the new benchmark... yet consider this. 

They both get the same dice, they can both have the same free +2 range one way or another yet consider what the weequays get for 1 extra point... 

1 extra health per model (which is a big one too since it takes you from 5-6), better surges (+2 range rather than +1, +2 damage/+1, pierce rather than the other way around), the ability to force a reroll on attacker or defender rather than just attacker, and access to hunter cards which are head and shoulders above the rest right now and a hide action that gives you an obvious thing to do in turn 1. So what am I missing? The droid cards aren't bad but were a bit of a flop overall really, guardian cards are rubbish and though there are some good trooper cards point for point they can't compete with hunter cards... so it just looks all bad at the moment to me. 

I keep thinking that the solution would sit with someone like Sorin who could synergise beautifully with the new droids but when you compare what he brings against what scum have access to in the care package and Jaba its the same as comparing weequays and droids, similar but still nowhere near points efficient. 

I've got great hope for this wave... but I'd love someone to argue with me by showing me how some of the new stuff is just as much of an auto-include as the current scum hunter options. 

 

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a) An eWeequay is 3.5 points, a rSentry is 3 points. Therefore eWeequays should be around 17% better than the rSentrys. I doubt that.

b) A dead eWeequay is even 4 points for 6 damage dealt, a dead rSentry is 3 points for 5 damage dealt . 6 / 4 = 1.5 but 5 / 3 = 1.667 This one goes to the Sentrys.

c) Sentrys are imperial droids. Cards with re-draw (Targeting Network / Shared Experience) combined with Zillo = Tears of joy.

d) Versatility. The choice between Multi-Fire and Charged Shot is just great. Multi-Fire with Targeting Computer is even greater.

e) I've seen Grenadiers dealing 20+ damage so often ... who needs an Assassinate then?

f) No matter what everyone else says, Reinforcements are still good. They are just not overpowered anymore.

g) Sentrys are great targets for Vader's Finest, Cross-Training, Survivalist, Scavenged Weaponry, ...

h) ... and for Sorin. Sorin is as good as the number of focus he deals per round. This depends on the number of targets he has. 5+ focus per round and he is worth his points. 4 units of regular Sentrys are just 24 points! Add Sorin and Officers/Zillo to taste ...

i) THESE ARE JUST THE REGULARS! Regulars are for campaign, elites are for skirmish. I'm really excited for the elite Sentrys.

Edited by DerBaer

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I'm thinking the other way around. If the sentry droids get that much better than the eweequays, we're in for a nice power creep again :(

Hopefully, they'll be as good as, not better...

DerBaer and MadFuhrer like this

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34 minutes ago, DerBaer said:

h) ... and for Sorin. Sorin is as good as the number of focus he deals per round. This depends on the number of targets he has. 5+ focus per round and he is worth his points. 4 units of regular Sentrys are just 24 points! Add Sorin and Officers/Zillo to taste ...

Oh, and I forgot ... with Multi-Fire it's 2 focus per droid. So we're having potentially 16 focus per round dealt in this combination!

Edited by DerBaer

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I don't like the regulars. All good trooper-like units need +2 damage surge. Just my opinion.

The elite Sentrys...those are the ones that will make u buy 2 boxes. I hope so...

Edited by viktr

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3 hours ago, DerBaer said:

Oh, and I forgot ... with Multi-Fire it's 2 focus per droid. So we're having potentially 16 focus per round dealt in this combination!

I'm surprised that I haven't seen more Sorin lists. I'm going to have to give him a whirl as his ability combined with Advanced Comm is sick! 

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29 minutes ago, nickv2002 said:

We know the Elites cost 10 so I'm pretty sure they're going to be awesome because of that. ;)

I wouldn't hold my breath too much for that

Take a look at some of the existing units: rSnow vs. eSnow, rHK vs. eHK, rWookiee vs. eWookiee, rHired Gun vs. eHired Guns

Most of the time people tend to use regulars only because the elites are simply not worth the extra cost (HG, Wookiees, HK) and other times the whole thing doesn't see competitive play (Snowtroopers)

I'd guestimate Sentry Droids power level from regular -> elite are somewhere between Stormtrooper/Snowtroopers & HK

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Just now, ricope said:

I wouldn't hold my breath too much for that

Take a look at some of the existing units: rSnow vs. eSnow, rHK vs. eHK, rWookiee vs. eWookiee, rHired Gun vs. eHired Guns

Most of the time people tend to use regulars only because the elites are simply not worth the extra cost (HG, Wookiees, HK) and other times the whole thing doesn't see competitive play (Snowtroopers)

I'd guestimate Sentry Droids power level from regular -> elite are somewhere between Stormtrooper/Snowtroopers & HK

The examples you cite are from a different era (Hoth and earlier), everything afterwards has been better balanced.

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sentry droids have access to zillo, so don't forget about that when considering the 5 health. troopers should get a few nice new command cards (like the one they already revealed that lets you distribute power tokens amongst the members of that group), so that will help too. and 4 consistent attacks from 2 droids can be pretty nice. What about sentry droids w/ Elite Jawa?

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I still think the biggest problem imps have now is card draw. Both scum and Rebs can make builds which reliably draw every card by turn 3, imps just can't compete with this so it makes it difficult when people talk about amazing card combos.  

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14 hours ago, DerBaer said:

Oh, and I forgot ... with Multi-Fire it's 2 focus per droid. So we're having potentially 16 focus per round dealt in this combination!

I think we both know you are being unbelievably optimistic here. But it would be good! 

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No, regular sentry droids I've played several times and they are pretty poor. The elite better be AMAZING for 10 pts.

i don't think much will change unless the maps begin to favor Melee units. Then folks like Vader, ePigs, Jedi, etc 

will get their day in the sun

if you're looking at competitive play only, the regular sentry droid are bantha fodder

Edited by buckero0
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Are there any three point squad units that can stand up to a four-point unit that is any good (aka leave those Trandos in the box)? Across the whole game there has been little to no comparison between a three-point Squad unit and a 4-point squad unit, just like there has been no comparison of a 2 point unit to a 3 point unit.

Let's the least compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges

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4 hours ago, ThatJakeGuy said:

Are there any three point squad units that can stand up to a four-point unit that is any good (aka leave those Trandos in the box)? Across the whole game there has been little to no comparison between a three-point Squad unit and a 4-point squad unit, just like there has been no comparison of a 2 point unit to a 3 point unit.

Let's the least compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges

Realistically shouldn't a 4pt model be proportionally better (as in slightly) better than a 3 point model.... isn't it a massive problem that there appears to be a stupendous gulf between the apple and the orange when in terms of list design (points wise) its not so much an apple/orange scenario and more of a green apple vs red apple... 

To be clearer I'm not disagreeing that E-weequays and r-sentries are apples and organges, I think you're dead right... but that's the problem. What 4 point model are we looking at that is on balance with a weequay? *edit* that's not from Jabba's realm.... 

Edited by beefcake4000

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Looking at some benchmarks for comparison isn't a bad idea, but there are many factors. eWeequays cost 7, but are worth 8 points. eSnowtroopers cost 10 points but are only worth 9. Let us for a moment disregard the fact that these two units cannot readily be compared (even when troopers were the thing, eSnowtroopers only saw slight play). Is it better to have fewer VPs in your squad? Or is it better to have more points available, but bloat your VPs?

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It's been my experience with this game that generally speaking, a given unit will only be Skirmish-viable as either the regular or the elite, but not both.

This is probably for campaign purposes, because the units need some sort of way to scale up with the threat that is at the Imperial Player's disposal, to combat the heroes.  In some cases you could make arguments for using the "not viable" version of a particular unit, but again, I'm drawing on my own observations here.

Regular HK's, but nobody really runs the elites

Elite Stormtroopers, but nobody really runs the regulars

Elite Tuskens, but nobody really runs Tuskens

You get the idea.

So for the Sentry Droids, I think it's a wait and see.  Trooper and Droid is an interesting combo.  Gives you access to Shared Experience to provide some Focus potential that the Empire generally lacks.  Trooper opens up some staples like Grenadier or Call the Vanguard.

Introducing new trait combinations sounds like a good way to keep new combos and innovations going, and I would hope that was the intent of the design here. I would have probably preferred they call the Sentry Droids "Dark Troopers", because that's all I see when I look at them, but whatever, it's fine.  Now THAT is a campaign box I'd love to see.  The minis are basically the different phase models, the final boss, Commando Kyle Katarn, throw in a couple of new Rebel Heroes, off on a support mission type narrative.  It sells itself.  But let's not go off topic on wishlisting.

So here's hoping that elite Sentry Droid has some staying power for Skirmish.  Any time they want to unload that crate from the boat, I'll be there, waiting to trample any stevedore that gets in my way.

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"Is HOTE going to fix the balance? Sentry droids Vs Weequays"

The more I think about it, the more I think this is the wrong question. I think HotE will bring balance, but not via the Sentrys.

Let me explain: I tend to have 2 categories for deployment cards. The first one is "tools" including classic "support" (healing (like MHD), damage buffs (like focus or Call the Shots), defense buffs (like Protector) and movement buffs (like Order)). This category includes Upgrade cards like Beast Tamer, Zillo, Rebel High Command. "Tools" also include "cannon fodder" and other cheap figures, so all guys, that just sit on terminals, open doors, carry crates around, all that stuff (Alliance Smuggler, Hired Guns, rJets, ...).

The other category is "meat". This includes all those figures that kill (and be killed). In the trooper meta these were eStormtroopers, in the hunter meta these are the eWeequays and the Power Rangers.

But HotE expands the "meat" category in a new direction: "center pieces". These are the new Han, the new Vader, the new IG (and Jedi Luke). I think that those will define the upcoming meta. They cannot be allied, so e.g. you absolutely have to play Empire, if you want to include Hater Vader. They are all really great figures playwise. Everyone wants to play them, because they are iconic for Star Wars. And they make you rethink list building.

So "Is HOTE going to fix the balance?" ... I think this is more than likely, but " Sentry droids Vs Weequays" will not be the main reason for that.

Edited by DerBaer

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Regular sentry droids will not add much to the skirmish game. Nobody knows a bout the elite. I do hope HOTE brings some similar in power units though. 

I hope the riot squad is usable, I know Drowkotta, Han and Vader will be usable. I know the ADTP is a great addition as well. I hope the elite sentries are great. Someone mentioned 10 cost 9 health and rapid fire with +2 surge and acc. That would be a winner in my book. 9 health and rapid fire makes them better than a lot of the heroes in the game right now from a purely offense/defense comparison

 

balance wise this doesn't do anything but bring the imperial side up a bit. EJawa can take the sentry droids in a droid list already mixing droids, eQuay and focus figures like 3PO and Gideon

Edited by buckero0
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