Smoothjedi

2 handed rifle and shield gauntlet

40 posts in this topic

So I have gone down the hunter tree, and am mostly a blaster force user. I am interested in taking a tree with reflect talents, but I'm unsure how to use them reliably. Using a 2 handed blaster doesn't make it practical to have a lightsaber off hand, and I haven't seen any rules for a light saber bayonet like a makeshift force pike to reflect with.

I came across the shield gauntlet, and I'm curious if it would be possible to use it on my off hand. When I'm not shooting the rifle, I shouldn't necessarily have to keep both hands on the weapon. As it is a gauntlet, it seems like I should be able to use my hand for shooting without causing problems.  Does this seem feasible?

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Just out of curiosity, but is there an attachment/mod or whatever that is basically putting a shield like that on a gun?    I mean, since it's mostly energy, there shouldn't be too much weight, but similar to several WW 2 guns that were behind shields, I don't see why you couldn't do that in SW.  I mean they are even see through, so they wouldn't even effect aim.

And just to clarify, I'm specifically referring to some kind of weapon mod/attachment that would project a shield, similar to the ones awayputurwpn linked, or even up to the size of the Gun Gun ones, around the rifle as it's being fired.

I'm guessing the answer is no, but it seems like something that would be doable, given the nature of the technology.

And if it's not something that exists, how would you build it?   Perhaps it gives the weapon some negative trait?   Like unwieldy or whatever, but providing significant protection to the shooter?

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11 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

If you aren't shooting the Rifle in the same Round I see no problem using it and would allow it in my game.

 

Yeah but that's my point. I would think it would be reasonable to shoot the gun, and after I take my shots take my offhand off the weapon and have a shield projected. It's not like 5e D&D where I am worried about possibly taking a reaction shot (or in this game's terms, an OOT incidental), and rounds are lengthy so I think there'd be time.

It don't think it says anything in the description about having to take time to turn the gauntlet on. Holding the gun at the end of my turn like it shows in the picture awayputurwpn posted seems easy to achieve.

Edited by Smoothjedi
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Yeah there's no timing issues for switching hands or "adjusting your grip." This is all done via incidentals. So basically you just need to be 

1) holding the rifle and

2) have two hands available to use the rifle when you attack.

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1 hour ago, Smoothjedi said:

Holding the gun at the end of my turn like it shows in the picture awayputurwpn posted seems easy to achieve.

Though to be technically accurate, the Killian Rangers were trained to use their special blaster rifle weapons (siang lances) with one hand :)

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10 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

Yeah there's no timing issues for switching hands or "adjusting your grip." This is all done via incidentals. So basically you just need to be 

1) holding the rifle and

2) have two hands available to use the rifle when you attack.

Well, as I understand the RAW this is not how Actions and Rounds work. When you choose an Action like shooting a rifle that requires two hands this is your PC's focus for the Round and you can't simultaneity benefit from something that requires a free hand. It's not that you can't figure out a way to justify it in a meta sense it's just not how the Mechanics work. Rifles in this game do more damage and part of the price you pay to dish out that damage is you have to use to hands. Shields also have the same kind of requirement so if you want to benefit from it's affects you have to have a hand to use it the entire Round. So no you cannot by the RAW both attack with a two handed weapon and benefit from an item that requires a hand as well.

 

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After looking into this I realized I mistook the OP reference as just a Shield, not a Shield Gauntlet. So I was both right and wrong, A Shield Gauntlet has no restrictions like this because you aren't "holding" it. A Shield on the other hand (pun intended) actually has to be held to be effective so you'd have to choose which you're going to use in your Turn.

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Yes, that is true. I would rule that you can't hold a shield in one hand and use the rifle with that hands as well. You'd have to spend a maneuver to stow the shield (or an incidental to drop it) before firing the weapon. 

Unless you've got Improved Quick Draw...OOH or a magnetic weapon tether!! You could just drop the shield as an incidental, fire, then *yoink* the shield pops back into your hand.

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19 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Just out of curiosity, but is there an attachment/mod or whatever that is basically putting a shield like that on a gun?

Although I really like this idea, I'm less concerned about the defense and more interested in using reflect. My GM already said a lightsaber bayonette, barring any printed rules we haven't seen, is too unwieldy to use reflect. I can't imagine this shield idea would be better.

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4 minutes ago, Smoothjedi said:

Although I really like this idea, I'm less concerned about the defense and more interested in using reflect. My GM already said a lightsaber bayonette, barring any printed rules we haven't seen, is too unwieldy to use reflect. I can't imagine this shield idea would be better.

That's fine, I was mostly asking as a side question.  Because once I saw your question, in my head, I pictured people with rifles, looking through shield barriers as they shot, the barrel of the rifle sticking out throught the middle of the energy field.  Basically having some portable cover/defense or whatever.   As far as the actual game mechanics of how that plays out, I don't really care what it's called.  I just like the image and was curious if someone had already published it. :)  

 

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Id say that since rifle is two handed you cannot benefit from the shield gauntlet, however carbines are an interesting case in that they can be held and fired one handed at shorter range. So a carbine Id be more flexible with. If you have improved quick draw allowing you to stow the weapon between shots then Id also allow. 

Think of it this way, think of how much freedom of movement you have to reflect (look at the Rebels Sabine moment of greatness with the shield gauntlet she got, also in the clone wars with the Mando police) , now think of soldiers moving with a rifle in combat, would they be able to have that same freedom of movement to reflect when they had both hands on the weapon such that they could use the weapon effectively. I think that there is an attachment that lets you use a two handed rifle one handed but still use ranged (heavy) as the skill, this would free up your hand to use the shield gauntlet effectively.

So sensibly Id say no you cant use two handed weapons with a shield gauntlet to reflect, , but you could argue the case for a four armed race to do it. Of course its all down to GM choice though.

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3 minutes ago, syrath said:

Id say that since rifle is two handed you cannot benefit from the shield gauntlet, however carbines are an interesting case in that they can be held and fired one handed at shorter range. So a carbine Id be more flexible with. If you have improved quick draw allowing you to stow the weapon between shots then Id also allow. 

This assumes that the only thing you're doing in the round is firing your rifle. This isn't how it's described in the rules. Why can't someone fire, defend, and then fire again? It's the same thing as firing from cover. You're not always just pumping blasterfire into the battle. You duck and cover in between volleys. That's what the failure on the Setback dice can represent from cover, and from the shield gauntlet as well. Why can't Reflect benefit from that same concept?

Also Reflect (an out-of-turn incidental) is a Force talent, meaning that one cannot use it unless one is Force sensitive. Unhanding a rifle so that you can reflect a blaster shot with a shield gauntlet shouldn't really be that big a deal for a Force user, IMO. 

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43 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

This assumes that the only thing you're doing in the round is firing your rifle. This isn't how it's described in the rules. Why can't someone fire, defend, and then fire again? It's the same thing as firing from cover. You're not always just pumping blasterfire into the battle. You duck and cover in between volleys. That's what the failure on the Setback dice can represent from cover, and from the shield gauntlet as well. Why can't Reflect benefit from that same concept?

Also Reflect (an out-of-turn incidental) is a Force talent, meaning that one cannot use it unless one is Force sensitive. Unhanding a rifle so that you can reflect a blaster shot with a shield gauntlet shouldn't really be that big a deal for a Force user, IMO. 

This makes the assumption that the shots coming at you are coming at you during a time when you dont have both hands on the weapon as well, they dont just stop while you are using a weapon, and most people using a rifle are holding it with both hands so thst they can utilize it at a moments notice. Generally when someone is shooting at you the last thing you do is take both hands off the weepon to use a shield, you are shooting back. Combat isnt like, okay I take my shot, I now stand with my shield ready while you take yours, now that youve taken your shot ,I can stop using my shield and take my shot. It never works that way. 

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9 minutes ago, syrath said:

This makes the assumption that the shots coming at you are coming at you during a time when you dont have both hands on the weapon as well ...

Combat isnt like, okay I take my shot, I now stand with my shield ready while you take yours, now that youve taken your shot ,I can stop using my shield and take my shot. It never works that way. 

Yeah, I wasn't saying it works that way. And that's not at all what I was assuming. I would have thought that you were replying to someone else, had you not included my post as a quote :)

What I am assuming is that the narrative dice have input into this: success vs. failure determines how ready to defend yourself you were at that given moment in the combat. Hence the reason Setback dice make you more defensible. So, yeah, not assuming that combat is a neat and tidy "I take my turn and now you take yours" environment. But that doesn't mean that you also aren't ducking and firing. I think all of use want to be true to the cinematic nature of Star Wars in this regard.

And the Reflect talent is a Force talent, which belies a certain amount of prescience. So a Jedi-type will know when to put their "shields up," so to speak.

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the force talent is the ability to react to blaster shots with the inhuman speed required (even though its been shown to have the speed of a pitched baseball) The point is that you wouldnt be able to react that fast if you didnt have it in the ready to block position for most of the round. To me if you are shooting you have your hands on your weapon for most of the round waiting for opportunity to shoot, you cannot do both at the same time, unless you are shooting with a one handed weapon and using your shield in the other. Otherwise why not allow dual wielding with a two handed weapon and a single handed weapon as well ( this assumes the same as what you say above that you hold a rifle in both hands then let go with one hand to draw a pistol and fire that off while holding your two handed weapon in one). 

Even when moving in combat you keep your weapon ready to fire, yes you can let go but you arent going to get the benfit of the shield gauntlet (which also would likely have to be turned off while firing as well. This means you arent available to block any and all attacks that may come your way. There is no way you would be as effective as someone holding a pistol and the gauntlet at the ready for the entire turn.

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Well I wasn't able to find anything in the text about turning it on. @syrath, you had a good question earlier- the rifle I'm using is the DDC-MR6 Modular Rifle, which is not a heavy rifle with an encumbrance of 3, same as a carbine I believe.

The gauntlet doesn't really specify where the shield is projected. If it is from the forearm, I see no reason why it would need to be disabled while holding the front of the rifle. In the split second it would take to reflect a bolt, it seems reasonable to take a hand off, swipe at the bolt, and grab it again, especially with a relatively light weapon.

It's much different from trying to use another weapon off hand, because then your hand would be grasping something else. I agree normal shields, which often have cumbersome, seems ridiculous to use off hand with a gun, especially since often you're grasping some sort of handle.

 

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1 hour ago, Smoothjedi said:

Well I wasn't able to find anything in the text about turning it on. @syrath, you had a good question earlier- the rifle I'm using is the DDC-MR6 Modular Rifle, which is not a heavy rifle with an encumbrance of 3, same as a carbine I believe.

The gauntlet doesn't really specify where the shield is projected. If it is from the forearm, I see no reason why it would need to be disabled while holding the front of the rifle. In the split second it would take to reflect a bolt, it seems reasonable to take a hand off, swipe at the bolt, and grab it again, especially with a relatively light weapon.

It's much different from trying to use another weapon off hand, because then your hand would be grasping something else. I agree normal shields, which often have cumbersome, seems ridiculous to use off hand with a gun, especially since often you're grasping some sort of handle.

 

 

Up to your Gm as my original post says but I feel that successfully using a one handed shield along with a two handed weapon is pushing it, and for example how would you expect to reflect an attack coming from the shields off side , so if you left handed the shield and an attack from your right side comes, its just not practical to have it ready to use and have the mobilty and speed to use it. 

Imagine a martial artist who can block only with his left arm, because he is holding something in his right. Now imagine he is holding a two handed rifle, is he going to be able to block as effectively, and this is against a much slower and more telegraphed blow, never mind a blaster bolt. The second he lets go of the weapon he is dropping it which means he is severely limited with countering the blow, never mind two that may come one after the other. If you and your GM are fine with it, cool, as a player Id never try it and as a GM id only allow it with single handed weapons. Even carbines are limited to short range if you offhand something else. Rifles wouldnt be able to be held straight, which is the reason they are two handed to begin with.

Ill tell you what buy a realistically weighted toy rifle and make a lightweight cardboard shield and try holding the gun single handed while moving the shield about such that you can block blaster fire from any direction, if you can turn in any direction in double the  time required while holding the rifle such that you can grab it without it dipping in one hand and ill be convinced. 

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Well, of course it's always up to the GM, but when I'm GM my players ask a lot of questions to do crazy stuff. Although I am initially tempted to say no most of the time, if a good justification can be made that makes sense, I'll usually allow it. It's their job to convince me, and I'm pretty open to an idea if its plausible. That's really what this discussion here is about; is it plausible enough I could make an argument to my GM? We're working on it right now! :)

Spin time just in general would depend a lot on how the weapon is held, more so than whether the weapon is one handed or not. Let me add some pictorial examples of just some random guy.

In the first picture, if this guy suddenly got shot at by a blaster on his right side, he'd probably be screwed if he was wearing a gauntlet on his left. In the second pic where he's  using a rifle/carbine close to his body, he could turn much faster in any direction because although the gun is heavier, its mass is much closer to his axis of rotation, and potentially quickly raise an arm to defend once orientated. Even a long barreled sniper rifle would still not be super hard to spin with if you were holding it against yourself with the barrel pointed up and nearly parallel to your body.

Then again, we're pretty much talking about using magic here, aka the Force, so to a certain extent sweating the physics is moot. 

han-solo.jpg

Harrison-Ford-as-Han-Solo-in-Starwars-Episode-IV.jpg

Edited by Smoothjedi
typos

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28 minutes ago, syrath said:

There is no way you would be as effective as someone holding a pistol and the gauntlet at the ready for the entire turn.

By that logic, you'd be even more effective if you weren't attacking at all for the entire turn. But there's no way to "focus on defense" in this system, beyond taking cover (and the of course the melee-defense maneuver, guarded stance, but we're talking ranged attacks specifically here). There's no "Dodge action" or "total defense" that you have in other systems. Rather, it is assumed that during combat you are doing your utmost not to get hit. 

And for the Jedi-types, Force precognition plays into all that. You're just better at sensing when to duck, when to turn, when to attack.

 

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1 hour ago, awayputurwpn said:

By that logic, you'd be even more effective if you weren't attacking at all for the entire turn. But there's no way to "focus on defense" in this system, beyond taking cover (and the of course the melee-defense maneuver, guarded stance, but we're talking ranged attacks specifically here). There's no "Dodge action" or "total defense" that you have in other systems. Rather, it is assumed that during combat you are doing your utmost not to get hit. 

And for the Jedi-types, Force precognition plays into all that. You're just better at sensing when to duck, when to turn, when to attack.

 

if you want to fall back on the actual rules rifle 2 handed weapon ,shield gauntlet 1 handed weapon 

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