Squadronless fleet?

[ImperialCaptain2017 230]

So I've had a lot of trouble with squadron play lately, and I thought that going squadronless might be a possible solution:

Moff Jerjerrod's Squadronless Fleet     
Author: ImperialCaptain2017

Faction: Galactic Empire    
Points: 399/400      
Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery    
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost    
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions    

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
-  Comms Net     ( 2     points) 
= 25 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
-  Moff Jerjerrod     ( 23     points) 
-  Agent Kallus     ( 3     points) 
-  Gunnery Team     ( 7     points) 
-  Quad Laser Turrets     ( 5     points) 
-  Quad Battery Turrets     ( 5     points) 
-  Leading Shots     ( 4     points) 
= 167 total ship cost

Victory II-Class Star Destroyer (85 points)
-  Disposable Capacitors     ( 3     points) 
-  Leading Shots     ( 4     points) 
= 92 total ship cost

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
-  Instigator     ( 4     points) 
-  Ordnance Experts     ( 4     points) 
= 52 total ship cost

Arquitens-class Light Cruiser (54 points)
-  Captain Needa     ( 2     points) 
-  Turbolaser Reroute Circuits     ( 7     points) 
= 63 total ship cost

 

So is this list any good, or is it just not possible to play squadronless without two or more Raiders?

[PT106 2,316]

I think it may be doable, however I feel that flak is lagging here and ISD doesn't have enough hull to survive mass bombers (it should have at least RBD) and there is no way to deal with scatter aces.

For comparison, my squadronless fleet that I flew at Nova was (I thought about doing a separate batrep about it but it seems to be infinitely delayed so here it is):

Mottivator 2
Author: PT106

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 398/400

Commander: Admiral Motti

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
-  Admiral Motti  ( 24  points)
-  Avenger  ( 5  points)
-  Agent Kallus  ( 3  points)
-  Gunnery Team  ( 7  points)
-  Quad Laser Turrets  ( 5  points)
-  Reinforced Blast Doors  ( 5  points)
-  Quad Battery Turrets  ( 5  points)
-  Leading Shots  ( 4  points)
= 178 total ship cost

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
-  External Racks  ( 3  points)
= 47 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
-  Suppressor  ( 4  points)
= 27 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
-  Comms Net  ( 2  points)
= 25 total ship cost

Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)
-  Intel Officer  ( 7  points)
-  Ordnance Experts  ( 4  points)
= 121 total ship cost

Card view link

Flagship ISD has 17 hull and is armed to the teeth as far as flak is concerned. Second ISD is also pretty strong flak-wise (with OE reroll it more or less guarantees 1 hit at close range), Raider ER can also be used for flak and both Gozantis do have a black die that can be CF'd.

 

 

[General6Kracker 4]

This is a pretty descent build, I would recommend to take Agent Kallus and put him on your Raider instead, and add Flechet Torpedoes as well, you still want that front attack hitting ships with your ISD. The Raider will be what you want engaging the Squadrons the most, 2-3 black dice with selective re rolls is amazing! Plus, with the Torpedoes you can activate them if they haven't gone yet. So just fly that Raider straight into them and make sure you can get two attacks! But this will also make it a Target so try to keep it alive until you really need him to engage Squadrons.

[PT106 2,316]

22 minutes ago, General6Kracker said:

I would recommend to take Agent Kallus and put him on your Raider instead

Don't. A raider would die in a single round of coordinated bomber raid on it, so it's likely that Kallus would either die before seeing play at all or would have only a single round of shooting.

On the other hand Kallus+QLT would trigger every time ISD is attacked (in addition to ISD flak attacks that would happen given the presence of a gunnery team). And given ISD health it'll get a lot of attacks.

Edited September 20, 2017 by PT106

[General6Kracker 4]

5 minutes ago, PT106 said:

Don't. A raider would die in a single round of coordinated bomber raid on it, so it's likely that Kallus would either die before seeing play at all or would have only a single round of shooting.

On the other hand Kallus+QLT would trigger every time ISD is attacked (in addition to ISD flak attacks that would happen given the presence of a gunnery team). And given ISD health it'll get a lot of attacks.

Agent Kallus does not trigger with Quad Laser Turrets, it's not an attack it is a counter. If you fly the Raider right, you could activate most of the enemy Squadrons before they even get to activate. If the Raider died from a Squadron attack then it also did it's job keeping Squadrons off of the ISD for another round and hopefully at least probably messed them up enough that 1 attack from the ISD or it's counter could finish them off.

[PT106 2,316]

Just now, General6Kracker said:

Agent Kallus does not trigger with Quad Laser Turrets, it's not an attack it is a counter.

Counter attack is an attack so it does trigger Kallus.

[General6Kracker 4]

Okay I was wrong you are right I looked at the FAQ, that's actually pretty badass.

However I still stand with putting Kallus on the Raider, an extra dice with Flechet Torpedoes would really help lock down Unique squadrons while still doing damage. I would also then give a QLT to the Raider and the ISD so they could both have it. Since enemy Squadrons at distance 1 of Instigator would be engaged with it, they could only attack the Raider if able, so counter and Kallus and Instigator on the Raider would make sure that any Squadrons that could activate and attack would likely be dead before they could do any serious damage to the ISD and then his own QLT would finish them off and his Front arc could focus on attacking ships.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

2 hours ago, General6Kracker said:

Okay I was wrong you are right I looked at the FAQ, that's actually pretty badass.

However I still stand with putting Kallus on the Raider, an extra dice with Flechet Torpedoes would really help lock down Unique squadrons while still doing damage. I would also then give a QLT to the Raider and the ISD so they could both have it. Since enemy Squadrons at distance 1 of Instigator would be engaged with it, they could only attack the Raider if able, so counter and Kallus and Instigator on the Raider would make sure that any Squadrons that could activate and attack would likely be dead before they could do any serious damage to the ISD and then his own QLT would finish them off and his Front arc could focus on attacking ships.

This is all great on paper, but in practice, the Raider dies before it gets that Flechette shot a solid 80% of the time against well-played squadrons, because the squadron phase is a thing. 

There is a very narrow band (between distance 1 and close range) in which the Raider's flak can actually hit the squadrons without being hit first in the squadron phase, and those that will get hit unreciprocated are just going to move out of range during the squadron phase (unless they have an activation pending before the Raider gets its shot, which is just that much worse for you).  And Instigator doesn't help with that, because the only squadrons in Instigator range are also in shooting-Instigator range.

The only way this really works is if you're first player, and you're able to entice your opponent to attack something else that leaves their squadron ball right in front of your obvious pointy death Raider. 

It's not quite as simple as just bring a huge stick and hit them with it first.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

Now, a Rebel squadronless fleet, on the other hand...

Have you heard the good news of our lord and savior Mon Mothma?

[Green Knight 9,746]

4 hours ago, General6Kracker said:

This is a pretty descent build, I would recommend to take Agent Kallus and put him on your Raider instead, and add Flechet Torpedoes as well, you still want that front attack hitting ships with your ISD. The Raider will be what you want engaging the Squadrons the most, 2-3 black dice with selective re rolls is amazing! Plus, with the Torpedoes you can activate them if they haven't gone yet. So just fly that Raider straight into them and make sure you can get two attacks! But this will also make it a Target so try to keep it alive until you really need him to engage Squadrons.

The time where raiders could function as anti-squadron without supporting fighters is long gone - if it even existed.

Raiders are notoriously easy to take down with squadrons, and you need some form of solution to prevent them from being popped before they ever get to shoot. And to prevent enemy squadrons from simply moving away once they've taken a little flak.

1st player last/first w/flechettes do kind of work - except there is a lot of squads than can hurt you bad in the squad phase, rogue or not.

I recently had a game vs ISD BTAvenger + 4 Raider, almost non-existent squads. The raiders popped, one after the other (the 4th got away), then the ISD was a sitting duck. I don't think I lost any squads - they just jumped out to heal on the station as needed, then back in to shoot the next round.

[Ritalbringer 183]

15 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Now, a Rebel squadronless fleet, on the other hand...

Have you heard the good news of our lord and savior Mon Mothma?

Yes, my best list squadronless is under Mon Mothma. Admonition and Foresight as hammer and anvil, winged by cr90 and hh.

[Kendraam 230]

The issue with squadronless fleets is trying to have a solution for Yavaris B-wing triple taps and Jendon/Maarek double taps (twice if either has first/last activation) - MSU is probably the only real option and the Rebels have the best options for this.

A competent player with a decent squadron ball will cause havoc and with high hull squads it takes too long to chew through them with flak alone.

[ImperialCaptain2017 230]

7 hours ago, PT106 said:

Don't. A raider would die in a single round of coordinated bomber raid on it, so it's likely that Kallus would either die before seeing play at all or would have only a single round of shooting.

On the other hand Kallus+QLT would trigger every time ISD is attacked (in addition to ISD flak attacks that would happen given the presence of a gunnery team). And given ISD health it'll get a lot of attacks.

I agree, seeing as the last time I tried a build like this I got about 1 shot with Kallus in the entire game. Anyway, I definitely want to reinforce the ISD's hull with some Defensive Retrofit- not sure yet.

If this list isn't quite ready for squadronless, what would you recommend to add as a few delaying squadrons?

[CaribbeanNinja 6,207]

Cienna and Valen can really be a great minimal pair. 

If you're willing to spend a few more points, Valen and several Lambdas are great and can help with the strategic game. 

I'm currently not a fan of squad-less lists (rebel or imp). I think that time is over.

[GiledPallaeon 2,873]

4 hours ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

Cienna and Valen can really be a great minimal pair. 

If you're willing to spend a few more points, Valen and several Lambdas are great and can help with the strategic game. 

I'm currently not a fan of squad-less lists (rebel or imp). I think that time is over.

I'm not huge on Valen/Rudor, as they require positioning, and often alpha strike, to make sure the attacker (especially fast ones like A-wings, Interceptors, and Defenders) don't bypass Ciena entirely and nuke Valen.

8 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

This is all great on paper, but in practice, the Raider dies before it gets that Flechette shot a solid 80% of the time against well-played squadrons, because the squadron phase is a thing. 

There is a very narrow band (between distance 1 and close range) in which the Raider's flak can actually hit the squadrons without being hit first in the squadron phase, and those that will get hit unreciprocated are just going to move out of range during the squadron phase (unless they have an activation pending before the Raider gets its shot, which is just that much worse for you).  And Instigator doesn't help with that, because the only squadrons in Instigator range are also in shooting-Instigator range.

The only way this really works is if you're first player, and you're able to entice your opponent to attack something else that leaves their squadron ball right in front of your obvious pointy death Raider. 

It's not quite as simple as just bring a huge stick and hit them with it first.

This is why I don't like Instigator on a Raider, particularly one heavily loaded with Kallus, FT, QLT, etc. If you want a Raider loaded for ASq bear, give it Impetuous to give Kallus another salvo, and give it real squadron support to maximize its chances of not being nuked into oblivion. Ideal is having first player and alpha strike/activation advantage, which is a tall, tall order.

[CaribbeanNinja 6,207]

9 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

I'm not huge on Valen/Rudor, as they require positioning, and often alpha strike, to make sure the attacker (especially fast ones like A-wings, Interceptors, and Defenders) don't bypass Ciena entirely and nuke Valen.

This is why I don't like Instigator on a Raider, particularly one heavily loaded with Kallus, FT, QLT, etc. If you want a Raider loaded for ASq bear, give it Impetuous to give Kallus another salvo, and give it real squadron support to maximize its chances of not being nuked into oblivion. Ideal is having first player and alpha strike/activation advantage, which is a tall, tall order.

I agree, which is why I gave them up, but they are the best/least cost duo I believe right now for Imps (Oh how I long for a version of Shara/Tycho.)

As for Raiders...

I totally agree.  Raiders will totally get nuked by squads without squad support.  WITH squad support they are downright astounding.  Flechette Raider with squad support can ruin a heavy squad list's day real fast.

[PT106 2,316]

17 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

As for Raiders...

I totally agree.  Raiders will totally get nuked by squads without squad support. 

I would say it a bit differently - Raiders can be totally nuked without squad support. However sometimes this is exactly what you want, as it'll divert squadron fire from your other ships and may leave squadrons out of position. So, build that Raider cheap, expect to lose it and make it into a threat your opponent can't ignore

As far as squadronless goes, I think that in the current meta there are several fleets that can afford to go squadronless (by either tanking it or evading it), but these are still outlier fleets. However the option exists (as opposed to wave 5 where it was a non-starter). Essentially, the current rule of thumb is - if you're doing a squadronless fleet, there is a high chance you're doing it wrong.

[Drasnighta 26,833]

I half expect to see someone pull out the Kuat-Refit with Leading Shots and Fletchette Torps for Anti-Squad Super-Raider-Bully work.

 

[Ginkapo 9,321]

How do you do 3 out of the following 4:

Kill squadrons?

One shot flotillas?

Kill enemy carriers?

Kill large ships?

[ImperialCaptain2017 230]

3 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

How do you do 3 out of the following 4:

Kill squadrons?

One shot flotillas?

Kill enemy carriers?

Kill large ships?

On my particular fleet, or me as a player?

I can tell you that popping flotillas and carriers isn't that hard for me, but I have a lot of trouble with aces if they're played correctly, and as for large ships, it depends on the game.

Honestly, I'm probably not going to use this fleet. It seems like it might be more trouble than it's worth.

[Ginkapo 9,321]

33 minutes ago, ImperialCaptain2017 said:

On my particular fleet, or me as a player?

I can tell you that popping flotillas and carriers isn't that hard for me, but I have a lot of trouble with aces if they're played correctly, and as for large ships, it depends on the game.

Honestly, I'm probably not going to use this fleet. It seems like it might be more trouble than it's worth.

On this particular fleet.

[thecactusman17 3,192]

On 9/19/2017 at 6:43 PM, PT106 said:

I think it may be doable, however I feel that flak is lagging here and ISD doesn't have enough hull to survive mass bombers (it should have at least RBD) and there is no way to deal with scatter aces.

For comparison, my squadronless fleet that I flew at Nova was (I thought about doing a separate batrep about it but it seems to be infinitely delayed so here it is):

Mottivator 2
Author: PT106

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 398/400

Commander: Admiral Motti

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
-  Admiral Motti  ( 24  points)
-  Avenger  ( 5  points)
-  Agent Kallus  ( 3  points)
-  Gunnery Team  ( 7  points)
-  Quad Laser Turrets  ( 5  points)
-  Reinforced Blast Doors  ( 5  points)
-  Quad Battery Turrets  ( 5  points)
-  Leading Shots  ( 4  points)
= 178 total ship cost

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
-  External Racks  ( 3  points)
= 47 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
-  Suppressor  ( 4  points)
= 27 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
-  Comms Net  ( 2  points)
= 25 total ship cost

Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)
-  Intel Officer  ( 7  points)
-  Ordnance Experts  ( 4  points)
= 121 total ship cost

Card view link

Flagship ISD has 17 hull and is armed to the teeth as far as flak is concerned. Second ISD is also pretty strong flak-wise (with OE reroll it more or less guarantees 1 hit at close range), Raider ER can also be used for flak and both Gozantis do have a black die that can be CF'd.

 

 

5 ships with no squads for almost 400 points. 

That's cute. 

We have to get a rematch in some time though, that was fun!

[Church14 2,495]

I run a non-Mothma, Rebel squadron-less fleet:

3xMC80 Battle Cruiser/Gunnery Team/ Leading Shots/Engine Techs

Rieekan. 

 

It suffers from low deployments (3), but everything is a functional speed 4 and can adjust. Against squads, triple double black flak adds up. Usually, anything 5HP or less is driven off or killed easily. Scatter aces give it trouble. 

 

It does better against heavy-ish bomber lists than I'd expect due to engine techs. double ramming flotillas frees up shots against the bigger carriers. It's especially fun when the flotillas activate and then die ramming you like in Rogue One.

It hasn't faced Yavaris double taps yet

[PT106 2,316]

10 minutes ago, Church14 said:

I run a non-Mothma, Rebel squadron-less fleet:

3xMC80 Battle Cruiser/Gunnery Team/ Leading Shots/Engine Techs

Rieekan. 

 

It suffers from low deployments (3), but everything is a functional speed 4 and can adjust. Against squads, triple double black flak adds up. Usually, anything 5HP or less is driven off or killed easily. Scatter aces give it trouble. 

 

It does better against heavy-ish bomber lists than I'd expect due to engine techs. double ramming flotillas frees up shots against the bigger carriers. It's especially fun when the flotillas activate and then die ramming you like in Rogue One.

It hasn't faced Yavaris double taps yet

Two main problems that I see - black flak means that only one MC80L will be able to flak at a time. MC80L single redirect + weak side shield makes it vulnerable to bombers. Deployment disadvantage + activation disadvantage is extra.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

4 minutes ago, PT106 said:

black flak means that only one MC80L will be able to flak at a time

This is a bigger problem than people take into account.  It requires much more skillful flying on your part to bring all three of those black AA zones to bear on one point than it requires for your opponent to deny you that overlapping flak.  The physical space of those large ships just doesn't lend itself well to providing black flak support to other ships.  It's great for protecting themselves in conjunction with supporting blue flak or defending squadrons, but they can't easily bring it to bear in support of others. 

I  just finished up a game against 2 battlecruisers and 3 GR75s where I had 10 TIE Fighters/Interceptors of various types. I lost 1 vanilla Interceptor because he couldn't overlap the flak.