Lilikin

Thoughts on my new list for a new player

21 posts in this topic

++ Standard Army (Waiqar the Undying : Wave 0 (2017)) [200 Points] ++

+ Infantry +

Reanimate Archers [18 Points]: 2x1 Trays

Reanimate Archers [18 Points]: 2x1 Trays

Reanimates [48 Points]: 3x2 Trays, File Leader, Marching Drummer, Necromancer, Raven Tabards

Reanimates [16 Points]: 2x1 Trays

+ Cavalry +

Ankaur Maro [46 Points]: 1 Tray, Fortuna's Dice

+ Siege +

Carrion Lancers [27 Points]: 2x1 Trays

Carrion Lancers [27 Points]: 2x1 Trays

++ Total: [200 Points] ++

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Unfortunately, you can't have File Leader and Necromancer attached to your 3x2 unit as they are both Champion upgrades.  I've found the Necromancer to be fairly lame, so cutting that would save you three points to you use elsewhere.  Other than that it looks cool.  Maro as a solo hero is a bit tricky to get value out of, but that just takes practice.  

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Cheers

Battlescribe and me fail


++ Standard Army (Waiqar the  Undying : Wave 0 (2017)) [199 Points] ++

+ Infantry +

Reanimate Archers [18 Points]: 2x1 Trays

Reanimate Archers [18 Points]: 2x1 Trays

Reanimates [45 Points]: 3x2 Trays, Executioner, Marching Drummer, Raven Tabards

Reanimates [18 Points]: 2x1 Trays, Marching Drummer

+ Cavalry +

Ankaur Maro [46 Points]: 1 Tray, Fortuna's Dice

+ Siege +

Carrion Lancers [27 Points]: 2x1 Trays

Carrion Lancers [27 Points]: 2x1 Trays

Total: [199 Points] 

 

1 point burning a hole cheers

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If you can find enough points to field Destructive Magic on Maro, he turns into a ranged attack killing machine. It gives him brutal, which means his red +2hits modifier toes wicked damage to infantry, or can take out a small group of cavalry in one hit.

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3 hours ago, Lilikin said:

Cheers

Battlescribe and me fail


++ Standard Army (Waiqar the  Undying : Wave 0 (2017)) [199 Points] ++

+ Infantry +

Reanimate Archers [18 Points]: 2x1 Trays

Reanimate Archers [18 Points]: 2x1 Trays

Without combat Ingenuity, your hurting to get surges. Without Rank discipline, your not getting rerolls. Without tempered steel, your not expanding damage. Not sure what these 2 block are designed for. Inunderstand your keeping it simple for a new guy, but then a 2x2 makes infinite more sense, even naked.

3 hours ago, Lilikin said:

Reanimates [45 Points]: 3x2 Trays, Executioner, Marching Drummer, Raven Tabards

Reanimates [18 Points]: 2x1 Trays, Marching Drummer

Why the 2x1 unit? This gets sneezed at and disappears. Buff the 3x2 into a 3x3 to improve survivability.

3 hours ago, Lilikin said:

+ Cavalry +

Ankaur Maro [46 Points]: 1 Tray, Fortuna's Dice

I'd swap for Violent Forces. FD is awesome, but when paired with Violent Forces it's much better. Its also one of the first things I drop from lists when im over points.

3 hours ago, Lilikin said:

+ Siege +

Carrion Lancers [27 Points]: 2x1 Trays

Carrion Lancers [27 Points]: 2x1 Trays

Try putting these into a 2x2 with Master Crafter Weapons amd Combat Ingenuity. It's mucho fun.

3 hours ago, Lilikin said:

Total: [199 Points] 

 

1 point burning a hole cheers

Happens alot, as well as having a "perfect" list at 203. I think thats indicative of good balance.

 

All in all, i love the barebones of your list, just a few minor tweaks here and there.

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Oda204

Violent forces doesn't make sense to me aren't there more reds unstable? than natural which means I get less dice.

Assuming I missed something

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Ok Oda here is my new list with your feedback

 

Skellies looking scary with these


++ Standard Army (Waiqar the  Undying : Wave 0 (2017)) [198 Points] ++

+ Infantry +

Reanimate Archers [32 Points]: 2x2 Trays

Reanimates [64 Points]: 3x3 Trays, Deathcaller, Marching Drummer, Moment of Inspiration, Raven Tabards

+ Cavalry +

Ankaur Maro [46 Points]: 1 Tray, Fortuna's Dice

+ Siege +

Carrion Lancers [56 Points]: 2x2 Trays, Combat Ingenuity, Master Crafted Weapons

Total: 198

Edited by Lilikin

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5 hours ago, Lilikin said:

Oda204

Violent forces doesn't make sense to me aren't there more reds unstable? than natural which means I get less dice.

Assuming I missed something

Reds are 0, 2, or 4 dice.

Stable is 1, or 2. You also gain BRUTAL 1. 

 

Violent forces lets you do the same amount of damage more reliably.

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On ‎9‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 10:38 AM, Wraithist said:

If you can find enough points to field Destructive Magic on Maro, he turns into a ranged attack killing machine. It gives him brutal, which means his red +2hits modifier toes wicked damage to infantry, or can take out a small group of cavalry in one hit.

He means Violent Forces. And yes, violent forces means his +2hit modifier takes out a whole tray of infantry or Oathsworn, as it is 4 hits.

On ‎9‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 0:30 PM, oda204 said:

Without combat Ingenuity, your hurting to get surges. Without Rank discipline, your not getting rerolls. Without tempered steel, your not expanding damage. Not sure what these 2 block are designed for. Inunderstand your keeping it simple for a new guy, but then a 2x2 makes infinite more sense, even naked.

Why the 2x1 unit? This gets sneezed at and disappears. Buff the 3x2 into a 3x3 to improve survivability.

I'd swap for Violent Forces. FD is awesome, but when paired with Violent Forces it's much better. Its also one of the first things I drop from lists when im over points.

Try putting these into a 2x2 with Master Crafter Weapons amd Combat Ingenuity. It's mucho fun.

Happens alot, as well as having a "perfect" list at 203. I think thats indicative of good balance.

 

All in all, i love the barebones of your list, just a few minor tweaks here and there.

I agree, no CI is going to be tough to get any amount of blight to stick. While rerolls are nice, I prefer CI as your odds of getting a surge are decent without rerolls, but even with rerolls needing two lowers odds dramatically.

On ‎9‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 9:56 AM, oda204 said:

Reds are 0, 2, or 4 dice.

Stable is 1, or 2. You also gain BRUTAL 1. 

 

Violent forces lets you do the same amount of damage more reliably.

You never want to roll 0 dice.

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27 minutes ago, Curlycross said:

I agree, no CI is going to be tough to get any amount of blight to stick. While rerolls are nice, I prefer CI as your odds of getting a surge are decent without rerolls, but even with rerolls needing two lowers odds dramatically.

Reanimate Archers w/o CI have a blight potential of 0-2

Reanimate Archers w/ CI have a blight potential of 1-4

Those numbers, to me, make CI the closest thing to an auto-include this game has. The only time I wouldn't consider it a must-take is if I ran a 3x2 intending to maximize damage, which I almost never do.

 

27 minutes ago, Curlycross said:

You never want to roll 0 dice.

More importantly, you CAN'T roll 0 dice. Even if you dial in Maro's respectable double hit or mortal strike modifier, if there are zero dice in your pool the attack is cancelled.

With Violent Forces, you can roll a pair of blanks and still hit for at least 4 damage or a mortal strike.

So... I guess I lied, I think Violent Forces is perhaps even more of an auto-include than CI, at least until Waiqar gets some kind of Rune token manipulation.

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Maro isn't horrible as a champion to use his ability to bring in trays. I attacked on turns with 4 unstable and brought trays on the other. But you might as well put him in a 2x2 of reanimates and save the points.

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literally the only difference in damage output with Maro's normal attack and stable runes attack is the amount of mortal strikes hes going to put out. Which shouldnt be a factor, that should be an added bonus since its a 1/12 chance per die to get one even with 4 dice you might not ever roll one.

It cuts off his access to the 1surge heal, but if you are bringing him for trays you dont bring him on his own anyway you put him in a unit of reanimates.

Also like mentioned before, possibility of 0 dice is bad bad bad. Red runes are fickle, ive had games where we never, ever had a 4rune and most of the turns didnt have any red runes at all.

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2 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

More importantly, you CAN'T roll 0 dice. Even if you dial in Maro's respectable double hit or mortal strike modifier, if there are zero dice in your pool the attack is cancelled.

With Violent Forces, you can roll a pair of blanks and still hit for at least 4 damage or a mortal strike.

So... I guess I lied, I think Violent Forces is perhaps even more of an auto-include than CI, at least until Waiqar gets some kind of Rune token manipulation.

Unless you're bringing him for Necromancy, then Regenerative is huge!

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On 9/21/2017 at 4:56 PM, Vineheart01 said:

literally the only difference in damage output with Maro's normal attack and stable runes attack is the amount of mortal strikes hes going to put out. Which shouldnt be a factor, that should be an added bonus since its a 1/12 chance per die to get one even with 4 dice you might not ever roll one.

It cuts off his access to the 1surge heal, but if you are bringing him for trays you dont bring him on his own anyway you put him in a unit of reanimates.

Also like mentioned before, possibility of 0 dice is bad bad bad. Red runes are fickle, ive had games where we never, ever had a 4rune and most of the turns didnt have any red runes at all.

I disagree.

Normal Maro damage output is 0-10, with average being 4. No dice being rolled, the double hit modifier is never applied.

Violent Forces damage output is 4-12, with the average being 8. Average in this case is determined by the white die having a hit icon on 9/12 sides.

Bring Fortuna's die to make your damage output be 8-12, with average being whatever you want it to be, ya just pick a die side!

 

Brutal 1 on the double hit modifier is huge. I dial that in 90% more often than Mortal Strike, as 90% of the time im shooting things that their armor is low enough I do more wounds from damage pool than MS.

Edited by oda204
Fixing the math

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On 9/21/2017 at 6:29 PM, oda204 said:

I disagree.

Normal Maro damage output is 0-10, with average being 4.

Violent Forces damage output is 6-10, with the average being 8.

 

Brutal 1 on the double hit modifier is huge. I dial that in 90% more often than Mortal Strike, as 90% of the time im shooting things that their armor is low enough I do more wounds from damage pool than MS.

how do you get 6 as the min damage on violent forces? if you roll blanks with maro and have the 2 hit dialed in then you are doing 4 damage, but if you are including the double hit in your min damage for VF maro than normal maro would have min damage of 2 which would also skew your averages...

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You are correct. I have edited my post. Regular Maro did not change, as you don"t use the double hit modifier if you have no dice in your pool. Also, i had to increase VF damage as I did my math badly when counting both double hits on the white die pool.

Edited by oda204
Clarification

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I don't feel your 'averages' are accurate at all.  The median of min/max is not the average, when max is 1/12 chance.  There are 9 hits present on a white die, so that would be what, expected damage .75?  meaning 1.5 with brutal.  Expected damage for Violent forces Maro would be 7, presuming you dialed in 2 hits. 

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1 minute ago, Darthain said:

I don't feel your 'averages' are accurate at all.  The median of min/max is not the average, when max is 1/12 chance.  There are 9 hits present on a white die, so that would be what, expected damage .75?  meaning 1.5 with brutal.  Expected damage for Violent forces Maro would be 7, presuming you dialed in 2 hits. 

Except that 7 isnt a legal result for his damage with Brutal 1. Using pure math doesnt work to predict game mechanics.

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Just now, oda204 said:

Except that 7 isnt a legal result for his damage with Brutal 1. Using pure math doesnt work to predict game mechanics.

It doesn't need to be legal, what it means is 6 or 8 are equally probable in that case.

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