Doubt with squadron vs ship obstruction or another squadron

[Sharego 128]

Hi guys!

I have a doubts with squadrons, if my squadron attack a ship with its yellow dot is on a debris, is it obstructed?

And when squadron are obstructed? When the middle point of the squadron is obstructed by obstacle or ship?

some pictures can be helpful because the re is always discussion about that.

 

Thanks!!!

[Drasnighta 26,832]

The "Yellow dot" for a Squadron isn't the center of the squadron base.  Its the point of the base closest to the target. 

 

For Ships, if your Yellow LOS dot is "On" debris, it doesn't matter...  When you trace the line of sight line - if any portion of that line touches the debris field, then the attack is obstructed - effectively, due to the FAQ, portions of the obstacle that are underneath the models base do not count.

There has to be at least a sliver outside of the base and in the way for it to count.

 

The listed Rules-Exception to this is Squadrons shooting Squadrons, while they are both on an Obstacle, with their bases touching.  They are still considered Obstructed to each other.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Drasnighta

[Tokra 2,147]

The line is sight is obstructed when the line between the squadrons or ships is obstructed by an obstacle. Whatever is under the ship or squadron does not matter and does not count.

 

[RobertK 709]

In case it isn't completely clear, please note this entry in the FAQ (to which Drasnighta and Tokra refer)...

OBSTRUCTED

Q: While a ship is overlapping an obstacle and the attacking hull zone’s traced line of sight does not pass over a visible portion of that obstacle, or another obstacle or ship, is that attack obstructed?

A: No.

Edited September 18, 2017 by RobertK

[ManInTheBox 618]

My slight extension to this question is: if the line of sight is traced over the shield dial and the shield dial is over an obstacle which is protruding from underneath the ship base but not the shield dial (and so, a laser line taken from above would not touch any portion of the obstacle because it is shielded by the dial), is the shot obstructed?

I don't think k so, but I had the whole "shield dial and collision" rule wrong for so long that I need to check.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Its a technical ruling to parse it out:

 

The ruling basically states that you ignore portions of the obstacle that are under the ship.

The Ship does include the Shield Dials and Plastic that frames it.  (That's why Overlaps occur when you overlap shield dials)

[ManInTheBox 618]

Thanks. Good to know I was on the right track.

[Tokra 2,147]

On 26.9.2017 at 3:10 PM, Drasnighta said:

Its a technical ruling to parse it out:

 

The ruling basically states that you ignore portions of the obstacle that are under the ship.

The Ship does include the Shield Dials and Plastic that frames it.  (That's why Overlaps occur when you overlap shield dials)

Not always.

The Shield dial does not count:

• Checking if the ship is out of the map
• Measuring range or distance
• Measuring line of sight

It does count:

• For the purposes of overlapping

 

In the FAQ it is even said:

Quote

Q: While measuring line of sight, if a ship is in the way, do its shield dials and their plastic frames affect line of sight in any way?
A: No. However, when determining line of sight, all of the other parts of a ship’s plastic base can obstruct line of sight.

This means (as far as i understand it) that if an obstacle is under the shield dial when checking the line of sight, the shield dial does not count. And the obstacle under the ship does count for the line of sight. Only the cardboard does count for it (not even the plastic).
For the plastic it is not a big problem. As you can say: if you can see the obstacle on the line of sight it is obstructed. But for the shield dial this is a bit more difficult. You would have to remove the shield number dial to "see" the obstacle.

Little correction. The plastic part from the FAQ means the plastic of the shield dial, not of the ship. The plastic from the ship does count for the LOS (who in gods same came up with this stupid ruling...)

Edited September 28, 2017 by Tokra

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

Just now, Tokra said:

Not always.

The Shield dial does not count:

• Checking if the ship is out of the map
• Measuring range or distance
• Measuring line of sight

It does count:

• For the purposes of overlapping

 

In the FAQ it is even said:

This means (as far as i understand it) that if an obstacle is under the shield dial when checking the line of sight, the shield dial does not count. And the obstacle under the ship does count for the line of sight. Only the cardboard does count for it (not even the plastic).
For the plastic it is not a big problem. As you can say: if you can see the obstacle on the line of sight it is obstructed. But for the shield dial this is a bit more difficult. You would have to remove the shield number dial to "see" the obstacle.

OBSTRUCTED

Q:

While a ship is overlapping an obstacle and the attacking

hull zone’s traced line of sight does not pass over a visible

portion of that obstacle, or another obstacle or ship, is that

attack obstructed?

A:

No

While I guess it could be more explicit, the only reasonable way to read that IMO is looking straight down from above the ship.  Otherwise the obstacle is pretty much always visible, since you can always peer underneath the sides of the ship's base, obviating the ruling entirely.  And since my shield dials aren't transparent (or removed...), any portion of the obstacle under them isn't visible.

[Tokra 2,147]

21 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

While I guess it could be more explicit, the only reasonable way to read that IMO is looking straight down from above the ship.  Otherwise the obstacle is pretty much always visible, since you can always peer underneath the sides of the ship's base, obviating the ruling entirely.  And since my shield dials aren't transparent (or removed...), any portion of the obstacle under them isn't visible.

So you have two parts in the FAQ. The one is saying: "Visible part" the second is saying: "the shield dial does not affect line of sight".

 

And i had to correct me in the earlier post. The plastic of the ship does count, only the plastic from the shield dial does not count.
So much for the "visible part" of the FAQ. The plastic from the ship does block the line of sight. But the plastic from the shield dial and the shield dial itself does not count for the line of sight. And in this case as well not for the obstacles.
This is at least my interpretation, and the way we always did it.

 

[Green Knight 9,746]

Q: So are we checking for overlaps or LoS?

A: LoS

So that would seem to indicate shield dials/plastic shield frame doesn't count.

I'm not convinced, however, as we're talking about tracing LoS across a visible portion of the obstacle.

That seems to imply the opposite: that anything hidden beneath the shield dials is indeed invisible and thus do count.

[Tokra 2,147]

A picture says more than a few words:
I hope it is possible to see the obstacle. If not, i will have to change the background to a white one.

Case 1:

Is this line of sight obstructed or not?
The obstacle is not "visible" and the shield dial from the ISD does not count for obstruction.

But the LOS is obstruced, exactly for this reason (the shield does not count or affect the line of sight in any way). You just have to remove the ISD and check again.

 

Case 2:

Same as the above one. The obstacle is not visible. But again, the shield dial does not affect the line of sight. So the attack would be obstructed.

 

[Tokra 2,147]

On 18.9.2017 at 8:39 PM, Sharego said:

Hi guys!

I have a doubts with squadrons, if my squadron attack a ship with its yellow dot is on a debris, is it obstructed?

And when squadron are obstructed? When the middle point of the squadron is obstructed by obstacle or ship?

some pictures can be helpful because the re is always discussion about that.

 

Thanks!!!

And while i am on it:

LOS 1 is obstructed. LOS 2 is not obstructed.
It does not matter that the yellow point is on the obstacle. You just start to check the LOS from the plastic base of the squadron.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

Just now, Tokra said:

And while i am on it:

LOS 1 is obstructed. LOS 2 is not obstructed.
It does not matter that the yellow point is on the obstacle. You just start to check the LOS from the plastic base of the squadron.

I should've been in bed long ago, so I'm not going to reply at length tonight, but it's worth remembering when making illustrations like this one that LoS to a squadron is drawn not to the center post but to the point on the squadron base which is closest to the ship--closest to the ship, not to the LoS dot to which you're measuring.  This results in a different point on the squadron, and in this case, I think it makes a difference.

Not saying you couldn't make an example that makes your point just as well, but when you're making example graphics like this, it's easy to introduce confusion if you're imprecise.

[Green Knight 9,746]

30 minutes ago, Tokra said:

A picture says more than a few words:
I hope it is possible to see the obstacle. If not, i will have to change the background to a white one.

Case 1:

Is this line of sight obstructed or not?
The obstacle is not "visible" and the shield dial from the ISD does not count for obstruction.

But the LOS is obstruced, exactly for this reason (the shield does not count or affect the line of sight in any way). You just have to remove the ISD and check again.

 

Case 2:

Same as the above one. The obstacle is not visible. But again, the shield dial does not affect the line of sight. So the attack would be obstructed.

 

Or, strangely enough, it could be the other way around:

You don't see the rock and shield dials do not obstruct, so no obstruction.

[Tokra 2,147]

2 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

I should've been in bed long ago, so I'm not going to reply at length tonight, but it's worth remembering when making illustrations like this one that LoS to a squadron is drawn not to the center post but to the point on the squadron base which is closest to the ship--closest to the ship, not to the LoS dot to which you're measuring.  This results in a different point on the squadron, and in this case, I think it makes a difference.

Not saying you couldn't make an example that makes your point just as well, but when you're making example graphics like this, it's easy to introduce confusion if you're imprecise.

Basic math: When i draw a line from the center of a circle to something outside of the cirle, what point do i cross? . If you can find any point on the circle, that is closer to the target than this crossing of the line and the circle, you are good .

In Vassal it is possible to draw a line from the center. And this way you have always the closest point to whatever you draw the line to.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

Just now, Tokra said:

Basic math: When i draw a line from the center of a circle to something outside of the cirle, what point do i cross? . If you can find any point on the circle, that is closer to the target than this crossing of the line and the circle, you are good .

In Vassal it is possible to draw a line from the center. And this way you have always the closest point to whatever you draw the line to.

Accurate but incomplete.

Goddammit, you're going to make me stay awake to illustrate this...

Edited September 28, 2017 by Ardaedhel

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

The spots where the red lines cross the circle are where you're measuring.

The spot where the green line crosses the circle is where you're supposed to be measuring.

Basic math. 

edit:  For posterity, my illustration is incomplete, because you draw the green line to the target hull zone.  But I wasn't going to spend all the time to flesh it out all the way when I'm trying to get to bed. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Ardaedhel

[Ginkapo 9,321]

49 minutes ago, Tokra said:

A picture says more than a few words:
I hope it is possible to see the obstacle. If not, i will have to change the background to a white one.

Case 1:

Is this line of sight obstructed or not?
The obstacle is not "visible" and the shield dial from the ISD does not count for obstruction.

But the LOS is obstruced, exactly for this reason (the shield does not count or affect the line of sight in any way). You just have to remove the ISD and check again.

 

Case 2:

Same as the above one. The obstacle is not visible. But again, the shield dial does not affect the line of sight. So the attack would be obstructed.

 

Pretty sure they are both unobstructed due to the FAQ. The FAQ arose from an email query which had a drawing very similar to the second case. 

[Tokra 2,147]

23 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Or, strangely enough, it could be the other way around:

You don't see the rock and shield dials do not obstruct, so no obstruction.

Without the FAQ it would be different. There is no word about the Shield dial and line of sight. It only came in the FAQ.

 

10 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

The spots where the red lines cross the circle are where you're measuring. (for line of sight)

The spot where the green line crosses the circle is where you're supposed to be measuring. (when checking range)

Basic math. 

But we were talking about the Line of sight and not about the range/distance.
And the line of sight is done from the red lines, and not the green line. And the closest point on the squadron base for the line of sight is on the red line.

The green one is for the range between squadron and ship. And even here you are using the center of the squadron, to get the closest point from the squadron base

 

Ok, correction. Messed it up a bit (but you as well .

Its

Quote

When tracing line of sight to or from a squadron, trace the line using the point of the squadron’s base that is closest to the opposing squadron or hull zone.

So yes, yours is a bit more accurate and correct. I thought it was closest point to the yellow dot.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Tokra

[Green Knight 9,746]

10 minutes ago, Tokra said:

Without the FAQ it would be different. There is no word about the Shield dial and line of sight. It only came in the FAQ.

 

But we were talking about the Line of sight and not about the range/distance.
And the line of sight is done from the red lines, and not the green line. And the closest point on the squadron base for the line of sight is on the red line.

The green one is for the range between squadron and ship. And even here you are using the center of the squadron, to get the closest point from the squadron base

 

Ok, correction. Messed it up a bit (but you as well .

Its

So yes, yours is a bit more accurate and correct. I thought it was closest point to the yellow dot.

Really? You trace Los as you would range, not to the yellow dot of the target hull zone???

[Green Knight 9,746]

13 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Pretty sure they are both unobstructed due to the FAQ. The FAQ arose from an email query which had a drawing very similar to the second case. 

That's what I think the FAQ implies.

And as we can see from Tokra's illustrations, it can create some strange situations, but that's the rules.

[Tokra 2,147]

11 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Pretty sure they are both unobstructed due to the FAQ. The FAQ arose from an email query which had a drawing very similar to the second case. 

If you mean this one:
response-re-obstruction-when-a-ship-overlaps-the-obstacle

Well. Yes (more or less). BUT on this picture the obstacle goes unter the ship. Even if you remove the shield dial, the obstacle would not be visible on the line of sight.
But the answer from Michael is a bit incomplete as well in this case. Either the shield dial does count for line of sight or it does not. It cannot be, that it matters in one case and not in the other.

Better send him my two pictures and wait for the answer .

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Ardaedhel
Double post and this one's all jacked up.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

Just now, Tokra said:

Without the FAQ it would be different. There is no word about the Shield dial and line of sigh

 

But we were talking about the Line of sight and not about the range/distance.
And the line of sight is done from the red lines, and not the green line. And the closest point on the squadron base for the line of sight is on the red line.

The green one is for the range between squadron and ship. And even here you are using the center of the squadron, to get the closest point from the squadron base

 

*sigh*

RRG pg 7 RANGE AND DISTANCE said:

When tracing line of sight to or from a squadron, trace the line using the point of the squadron’s base that is closest to the opposing squadron or hull zone.
 

 

Not LoS dot.

HULL ZONE.

The pink delineates the closest distance from the squadron's base (which is a circle, so the through the closest point passes through the center) to the opposing hull zone.

You then measure LoS from that point--not from the center of the circle--to the yellow dot.

And now I really am going to bed.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Ardaedhel