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Forrest Guardians

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2 minutes ago, taylorcowbell said:

They got some anti-hawthorne/stall-y daqan tech but thats about it.

You and @Vineheart01 both said it's anti Daqan. Can't it be anti-elf, too? After reading about how Wind Rune can be put to such good effect on the Elven archers, I can totally see Vicious Roots making a splash. Besides, the Scions can attack at range next turn, while Oathsworn Cavalry, Leonx Riders, Reanimates, etc. cannot. Seems pretty solid for just 3 points. Not a matter of if you'll use it, but when.

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2 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

You and @Vineheart01 both said it's anti Daqan. Can't it be anti-elf, too? After reading about how Wind Rune can be put to such good effect on the Elven archers, I can totally see Vicious Roots making a splash. Besides, the Scions can attack at range next turn, while Oathsworn Cavalry, Leonx Riders, Reanimates, etc. cannot. Seems pretty solid for just 3 points. Not a matter of if you'll use it, but when.

Yeah I was mainly focusing on the boon removal, and less on the immobilize. But you make a good point about getting them stuck and then ranging later.

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Daqans are the boon stackers though so its double-effective on them, its pretty rare (even without hawthorne) to see daqan units without inspiration tokens.

Isnt immobilize a single movement cancel though, not the entire activation? Said elf archers with wind runes are shifting THREE TIMES so they'd still move alot.
edit: also giving a counter to highly mobile units to an army that doesnt need the counter is kinda silly. FFG and Scum in Xwing all over again "We introduced a good counter to this scum ship....its scum only though"

Edited by Vineheart01

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That's funny - I completely skimmed over the fact that it removes their banes. I mean, it occurred to me that it helps because that Immobilize token means something next round, but it didn't fully register as a Daqan counter. Interesting how our minds work.

3 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Isnt immobilize a single movement cancel though, not the entire activation? Said elf archers with wind runes are shifting THREE TIMES so they'd still move alot.

True. And they wouldn't even need to move, because they have ranged attack as well. So, that was a bad example on my part.

Edited by Parakitor

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The boon killer was the main thing i noticed. Immobilization on daqan is more of a "Why you son of a..." reaction rather than "Crap, welp theyre dead" because it stalls a turn and we're melee so that can hurt.
I have played 2 games where i WASNT daqan, and i've yet to get their 2surge off to get a token that way. Oaths sometimes get 2 surges but more often than not they need to spend one for Tempered Steel to finish a unit off rather than leave a couple models alive. Easy rallies and Hawthorne let us stack the crap out of them tokens though, which lets us spam exhaust cards to our hearts content (or remove blight).

Daqans can just tank the immobilize. Rally into +1def, bam its gone whatever cards i had exhausted are back and i have +1def to help against the impending ranged attacks (we have an init3 rally for a reason). But, i should have been charging this turn, and in a game with 8 turns losing a single round can be the deciding factor quite a lot.

I really dont see it affecting anyone other than Daqans that severely. Everyone else either 1) doesnt stack inspiration or 2) have multiple movements for immobilize to counter so its not a solid turn waster. Had it been R1-5 it could easily mess up alot of Uthuk stuff since they so far have a lot of R1 or R1-2 stuff, but they also have multiple movements.

...

Looked up the Immobilize Bane. So...it actually doesnt even counter wind runes. It can only be spent on actions on the command tool, which 2 of the archers' shifts are not. That...seems kinda silly to me... so its not even remotely an elf counter then.

Immobilize:

When a unit that has an immobilize token reveals either a march (⇩) or shift (⇪) action on his command tool, that token can be spent to cancel that action
 
Edited by Vineheart01

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Clearing Boons is a generally useful aspect of the card, but I think it actually hits harder against Waiqar than Daqan, just for that reason.  Daqan has easy access to Inspiration.   If he's in position Hawthorne can Skill at 2 the following turn to give your unit a token that the Scion shot at previously, when they reveal they clear the Immobilize token.  Waiqar need to plod forward into melee eventually, and this basically guarantees another turn you can shoot at them

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5 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

Looks like anticavalry in general.  Hold wraiths, death knights, oathsworn and threshers while you strip down some rerolls or threat.

It would be, but cavalry often charge from their longest ranges.  This card is only for range 1-3.  The cavalry would have to be in a fairly wonky position to hit them and your opponent will plan charges around this upgrade. 

Also, it does strip Daqan boon-stacks, but if your opponent sees that you have this upgrade, won't they just not boon stack and move in more quickly?  If you do land an immobilize on Daqan, they have the easiest time getting rid of it with a Hawthorne or whatever.  I say this is much meaner on Reanimates who, short of the uncommon Cursed Signets upgrade, will sorta just have to take it.

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52 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Daqans are the boon stackers though so its double-effective on them, its pretty rare (even without hawthorne) to see daqan units without inspiration tokens.

Isnt immobilize a single movement cancel though, not the entire activation? Said elf archers with wind runes are shifting THREE TIMES so they'd still move alot.
edit: also giving a counter to highly mobile units to an army that doesnt need the counter is kinda silly. FFG and Scum in Xwing all over again "We introduced a good counter to this scum ship....its scum only though"

What are the three shifts? I'm only counting two at a time.

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4 minutes ago, Bhelliom said:

What are the three shifts? I'm only counting two at a time.

Primary dial shift, Secondary shift (or windrune), and Support Scion.

For that matter, long as they get 2 surge they can attack -> Surge Shift -> Wind Rune Shift -> Support Scion Shift
Yes theyre bound to being near terrain, thats not a problem when they can perfectly sit around a corner so its really, really hard to charge them w/o touching the terrain.

Edited by Vineheart01

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25 minutes ago, Willange said:

Also, it does strip Daqan boon-stacks, but if your opponent sees that you have this upgrade, won't they just not boon stack and move in more quickly?  If you do land an immobilize on Daqan, they have the easiest time getting rid of it with a Hawthorne or whatever.  I say this is much meaner on Reanimates who, short of the uncommon Cursed Signets upgrade, will sorta just have to take it.

Good point, but when you consider that only one of your units is going to get all their banes removed, it may still be beneficial to stack up Inspiration tokens on your whole army, because some of them will still put those tokens to good use.

22 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

For that matter cavalry tend to just do 4fwd into 2fwd and bump into you, forfeiting a melee attack to rocket across the board and make contact.

That's a really good point. So I'm thinking Vicious Roots is decidedly not anti-cavalry. It's gotta be anti-infantry. Poor Ardus.

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30 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Primary dial shift, Secondary shift (or windrune), and Support Scion.

For that matter, long as they get 2 surge they can attack -> Surge Shift -> Wind Rune Shift -> Support Scion Shift
Yes theyre bound to being near terrain, thats not a problem when they can perfectly sit around a corner so its really, really hard to charge them w/o touching the terrain.

Ahh, of course. Both frontline and support are pretty darn good eh? That 3x2 of archers might be real powerful.

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Yeah both are pretty good.

Only real downside of the heavy for archers is it makes you take a 3x2, which is a lot of offense lost if they DO get caught.

I've thought about experimenting with the support golem but its almost the same price in the end as a deathstar and doesnt hit anywhere near as crazy so i am finding it hard to justify it. On the other hand, perma-stunning sounds juicy.

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26 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Yeah both are pretty good.

Only real downside of the heavy for archers is it makes you take a 3x2, which is a lot of offense lost if they DO get caught.

I've thought about experimenting with the support golem but its almost the same price in the end as a deathstar and doesnt hit anywhere near as crazy so i am finding it hard to justify it. On the other hand, perma-stunning sounds juicy.

Support Golem and Forged in Battle? Great tar pit until turn six, then very respectable Threat 4. No Citadel Weapons Master so only throwing two dice, but he's pretty easy to snipe out anyway.

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I think this is a crazy good card. Two scions with vicious roots will shut down an army. 

1 turn - strip boons and immobilise

Next turn - target unit removes immobilise

turn after - target unit gets charged by scion immobilised again

yet another turn - target unit deals with scion

final horror turn - target unit still has to get rid of final immobilise. 

Do that on two key units and it's game over red rover. 

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In today's episode of "PR Writers Don't Know the Rules"...

Quote

The Scions’ can also take advantage of their high wound threshold with the use of Cursed Signets.  This upgrade allows the Scions to suffer wounds in place of banes. If there are a high number of stable energy runes in play to strengthen the Scion’s defense, this upgrade can keep the saplings fighting while still keeping them at a relatively low risk.

Um... defense won't help at all since Cursed Signets converts boons into wounds, not damage.

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