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Jukey

Shifty Elves...too shwifty?

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Talking about derpwood archers with wind rune here. Is it too much? They are currently the most maneuverable, almost fastest unit in the game. When playing near an overgrown terrain they become practically uncatchable. 

It could be argued that their damage output is lacking, but with hunters guile they do 6-9 damage and scoot away. 

I love my elves, but I worry that they become a bit much with wind rune. 

So what's your thoughts? Is wind rune in need of a balance check?

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Yeah I've found them very hard to catch. Try and corner them between the map your units and terrain.

Cavalry with wind rune has a chance.  Good news is they die really quickly when you can catch them.

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You just got to play better ;)

Folk are just getting used to the elves.  You dont need to hit an elf if you can shoot an elf. Latari struggle to generate inspiration  so can be shut down quickly with banes, then if shot at they wilt very rapidly. If you are then coming at them hard from the other side with cavalry whilst conducting a shooting standoff the elves shiftiness wont help them out so much.

Or try putting a large piece of terrain in middle and just in front of their deployment zone, in range of a unit which will fit. gun for the terrain, then slingshot into their back lines.

But if you are trying to close in without thinking it through then you'll never catch them.

 

Edited by Thornoo1

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I have yet to play against elves, as I'm the only one in the area playing them currently, so admittedly, I thoroughly enjoy the shiftiness. It's more of a concern of if a unit that attacks, shifts, reforms, and shifts again, with a surge shift optional as well is really ok for gameplay health.

Flanking is obviously the answer but committing two good sized units to one medium unit means the rest of the elves run wild on whatever else is in your army. 

Its really more wind rune than the elves themselves. It's been an auto include on my reanimate archers for a long time and it's devastating in spearstars and oathsworn. Hopefully new expansions bring new equipment card that makes wind rune less dominant build option.

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1 hour ago, Jukey said:

Its really more wind rune than the elves themselves. It's been an auto include on my reanimate archers for a long time and it's devastating in spearstars and oathsworn. Hopefully new expansions bring new equipment card that makes wind rune less dominant build option.

Wind Rune is really dependent on those green runes though.  Having played orks in 40k for 25 years I can speak from deep experience that building your army around random is not a long term winning strategy.

People will figure out how to beat elves quick enough.  It took a while for Waiqar to start winning against Daqan consistently.

Edited by Thornoo1

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The last match with Jukey involved a block of Carrion Lancers. Our concern was that because of Wind Rune, it was impossible for my lancers to catch them so they had to flee. If I dialed in a reform, he would shift out of charge range. If I moved forward fast, he would then shift again and I would need a reform.

 

I lost 5 wounds on them before I could disengage. Because of wind rune, they were able to come out around from behind terrain and catch a unit that was doing 3 banks and 4 straights. 

 

If if the answer is "run wind runes yourself," then there is a problem.

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Just now, Church14 said:

If if the answer is "run wind runes yourself," then there is a problem.

That's an interesting thought.  What Wind Runes does is break a game mechanic, i.e. a unit's movement is fixed due to its dial. And the way dials have been created so far the move and reform combo doesn't come up a whole lot.

It may be overcome in the near future once rune manipulation becomes more prevalent.  Like I mention above, it's a card that relies upon a random element and if the other player can shift that randomness in a manner which shuts down the likelihood of wind runes working then it no longer becomes an issue.

In my opinion the game is still too young to say that this upgrade is a problem.  I expect once the Daqan Scouts drop we'll be talking about a whole new set of issues.

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10 minutes ago, Thornoo1 said:

That's an interesting thought.  What Wind Runes does is break a game mechanic, i.e. a unit's movement is fixed due to its dial. And the way dials have been created so far the move and reform combo doesn't come up a whole lot.

It may be overcome in the near future once rune manipulation becomes more prevalent.  Like I mention above, it's a card that relies upon a random element and if the other player can shift that randomness in a manner which shuts down the likelihood of wind runes working then it no longer becomes an issue.

In my opinion the game is still too young to say that this upgrade is a problem.  I expect once the Daqan Scouts drop we'll be talking about a whole new set of issues.

Future rune manipulation worries me as now the admirers leaning on wind Rune can do so more reliably ;)

 

It may be a knee jerk reaction, but wind Rune feels too strong at the moment. 

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Wind Rune is definitely a top tier upgrade, if only for, and this is the same thing I said about the Wraiths, you get a free reform action.  At least on units with a white skill.  Reforms that aren't white are typically really inconvenient on dials and end up costing you an entire game turn.  It's action efficiency.

 

With that said, I'd love to see some of your games, sounds like you have a lot of finesse with them already.  In my limited experience with Elves so far, there's only a finite amount of battlefield space, and the Oathsworn have no problem marching 4 with 2 modifier right into me

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The fastest the Deepwood Archers can move is Init 3, and that being their lowest initiative, that's also the fastest they can Wind Rune. They can never take Raven Tabards, so they can't push that to Init 2.

Since Carrion Lancers can Rally/March 3 at Init 3, they seem ideally suited to stopping them in their tracks or, at the very least, keeping them shifting rather than firing. 

Oathsworn and Death Knights are similarly well equipped to crossing enough ground that their shifting shouldn't help much, particularly since Death Knights can do a late initiative march followed by a reform.  Also, as mentioned, Wraiths have the moves needed to catch them but, Wraiths also seem to wither pretty fast when under ranged attack.

The proliferation of archers in general seems like a good argument for including MSU cavalry in most future lists.

I WANT to say that this is a job for the Captivating Hexer, but that obviously requires engaging with infantry, and at the moment Waiqar infantry is about as spry as a rock.

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there must be a balance reason why they cant take a tabard and a champ in the same archer unit.....

Either way, yeah wind runes are crazy good. I almost wish they'd get toned down a little...keyword almost because they actually make golems playable as more than a speedbump lol. 

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10 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

there must be a balance reason why they cant take a tabard and a champ in the same archer unit.....

Either way, yeah wind runes are crazy good. I almost wish they'd get toned down a little...keyword almost because they actually make golems playable as more than a speedbump lol. 

Well, we already know that their second hero will give an extra Champion slot to units that can only be occupied by a Sorceress, so maybe the double Storm Sorceress + Raven Tabards + Simultaneous Orders build is just a bit too crazy.

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6 hours ago, Click5 said:

With that said, I'd love to see some of your games, sounds like you have a lot of finesse with them already.  In my limited experience with Elves so far, there's only a finite amount of battlefield space, and the Oathsworn have no problem marching 4 with 2 modifier right into me

10 years of playing Tau in 40k. The jump shift jump mechanic in that army is very similar to elves in Runwars. Shoot get out of the way keep shooting. 

Simple :D

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2 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

Well, we already know that their second hero will give an extra Champion slot to units that can only be occupied by a Sorceress, so maybe the double Storm Sorceress + Raven Tabards + Simultaneous Orders build is just a bit too crazy.

I bet it's something we haven't seen yet that would make a non sorceress champion and a banner barrier broken.

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50 minutes ago, Thornoo1 said:

10 years of playing Tau in 40k. The jump shift jump mechanic in that army is very similar to elves in Runwars. Shoot get out of the way keep shooting. 

Simple :D

Exactly what I did in my tournament.  Then people got mad at me and said I turtled for shooting an shifting out of range.

Edited by flightmaster101

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58 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

Exactly what I did in my tournament.  Then people got mad at me and said I turtled for shooting an shifting out of range.

so people got mad you played archers the way archers are supposed to be played.....
Archers are suppose to stay at a distance. They carry lighter equipment so they can move faster and keep ahead of the melee. 

Git Gud applies i guess lol.

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2 hours ago, Asmo said:

Ill be trying a Greyhaven Channeller to recast the runes if too many greens appear.

 

I'll be using precise icons to make it a bad day for the grayhaven channeller to have left the office. 

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1 hour ago, Thornoo1 said:

I'll be using precise icons to make it a bad day for the grayhaven channeller to have left the office. 

Lots of people seem to trivialize unit upgrades by mentioning Accuracy but I have never had one show up when I wanted it to, and when it does then it is most likely lowering my damage.

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