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charlesanakin

Possible terrain limitations?

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Is it possible that terrain and cover will be limited similar to how X-Wing and Armada use pre-sized obstacles? Could we see terrain base sizes and then players are free to mount whatever tree, bush, rock, etc they choose (or is thematic)? This also leads me to wonder how tournaments will be played? Will all tournament tables be the same or will it simply be fine to use different terrains for each table and players just have to deal and adapt? Who will provide the tables? Will their be FFG standards for table builds? 

Ive seen lots of amazing hobbyists with great terrain but we know so little about how FFG views terrain and cover. 

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1 hour ago, Andreu said:

I'm really curious about this too.

Does anyone know how GW deals with this? I guess it will be quite similar.

GW, and most wargames (except Warmahordes who do weird flat template terrain) have different terrain on each board. This is especially true in small club or FLGS events. The boards are numbered and you'll be allocated a table each round so both players have to deal with what's there. At their official events GW have 2-3 different themes of boards, each board will have approximately similar sized and quantity of terrain pieces, but it's not exact. I don't know how FFG will handle it, but I'd be surprised if they're overly proscriptive about it otherwise it puts an impossible burden on small event organisers to build all the terrain needed to comply with a central set of standards. At official National tyoemeventa, I guess they'll mass produce a load of similar terrain and each table will be roughly similar. But differing table set ups is one of the things that keeps the game interesting. Also, official GW events have the terrain set up for you, other systems give you the terrain and you take it in turns setting terrain pieces up within spcertain parameters, like X-Wing obstacle deployment. So some variation on the above is what I'd expect, but as they're new into the war game market, who knows?

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I am going to assume that there will be some type of limitations for tournament level play.  You cannot have it wildly different on every single table.  I assume like Runewars they will have a table that specifies small, medium and large base of the terrain an how many you can use and how many of each those pieces you can field on the table.

However, for other types of play you can do as you will.

 

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Here's what the Runewars tournament rules say:

>>>>>>>>>>>.

"Each player must include four terrain cards of his or her choice and the corresponding punchboard terrain pieces—or custom 3D terrain—in their army. The total capacity of any combination of two chosen terrain cards cannot exceed 6. Players must use the same army for the duration of the tournament."

Also relevant:

"Creating Custom Terrain

Players and organizers may create custom 3D terrain to represent the terrain pieces used during a game as long as the custom terrain footprint fits within the punchboard terrain it is representing. During a game, players place any custom terrain on top of the corresponding punchboard terrain piece after all terrain is placed during setup (see step 3 of “Game Setup” on page 12).

Using Existing Custom Terrain

If an organizer wishes to use existing 3D terrain, he or she must choose pieces with a roughly square or circular footprint and assign them capacities based on the following chart.

Rough Diameter / Base Capacity Value

0 – 3 in. / 0

3 – 5 in. / 2

5 – 7 in. / 4

7 – 9 in. / 6

The organizer should also assign each piece of terrain no more than two keywords based on its physical appearance, clearly labeling the terrain for the tournament. (Terrain keywords can be found in the “Terrain” section of the Runewars Miniatures Game Rules Reference.) The organizer may also need to set X values for these keywords. If a tournament uses existing 3D terrain, when placing terrain during setup, players should choose the total number of terrain pieces listed on the round’s deployment card, regardless of the dangerous and defensive types."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Now, I don't know what exactly all of that means, but since FFG tend to have a lot of overlap in tournament rules, it wouldn't surprise me if Legion rules are similar.

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I hope its similar to other wargames, so each player takes turns placing terrain, and you can have pretty much as much terrain as both players agree on but usually not more than 25% of the table.

ps. I do hope they tweak terrain rules a little to distinguish 'light' and 'heavy' cover. As it doesn't make much sense that a unit of troopers in a concrete bunker only cancels out 1 attack die.

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5 hours ago, Lord Tareq said:

I hope its similar to other wargames, so each player takes turns placing terrain, and you can have pretty much as much terrain as both players agree on but usually not more than 25% of the table.

ps. I do hope they tweak terrain rules a little to distinguish 'light' and 'heavy' cover. As it doesn't make much sense that a unit of troopers in a concrete bunker only cancels out 1 attack die.

We haven't even see the final rules yet.  Everything is speculation.  I suspect we see little until Jan/Feb

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1 hour ago, TurboCooler said:

We haven't even see the final rules yet.  Everything is speculation.  I suspect we see little until Jan/Feb

There's definitely hard and soft cover, they use the barricades and forest to show the difference in the Team Covenant demo video. Soft saves 1 hit, hard saves 2 if memory serves.

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I wonder if Legion will include punchboard terrain like Runewars does, that would clear up any issues for tournament play.  It would surprise me though, as it looks like FFG is going for a grander GW type board aesthetic.

Expect something like, "Roughly 40% of the board should be covered in terrain, comprised of equal parts soft cover and hard cover"   

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14 hours ago, General Zodd said:

There's definitely hard and soft cover, they use the barricades and forest to show the difference in the Team Covenant demo video. Soft saves 1 hit, hard saves 2 if memory serves.

Indeed, I watched the demo on youtube and that cleared up a lot. The only think I don't like is how they handle vehicles. No different armor values, just a lot of wounds and some special rules.

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On 9/16/2017 at 8:51 PM, Hawkstrike said:

Here's what the Runewars tournament rules say:

>>>>>>>>>>>.

"Each player must include four terrain cards of his or her choice and the corresponding punchboard terrain pieces—or custom 3D terrain—in their army. The total capacity of any combination of two chosen terrain cards cannot exceed 6. Players must use the same army for the duration of the tournament."

Also relevant:

"Creating Custom Terrain

Players and organizers may create custom 3D terrain to represent the terrain pieces used during a game as long as the custom terrain footprint fits within the punchboard terrain it is representing. During a game, players place any custom terrain on top of the corresponding punchboard terrain piece after all terrain is placed during setup (see step 3 of “Game Setup” on page 12).

Using Existing Custom Terrain

If an organizer wishes to use existing 3D terrain, he or she must choose pieces with a roughly square or circular footprint and assign them capacities based on the following chart.

Rough Diameter / Base Capacity Value

0 – 3 in. / 0

3 – 5 in. / 2

5 – 7 in. / 4

7 – 9 in. / 6

The organizer should also assign each piece of terrain no more than two keywords based on its physical appearance, clearly labeling the terrain for the tournament. (Terrain keywords can be found in the “Terrain” section of the Runewars Miniatures Game Rules Reference.) The organizer may also need to set X values for these keywords. If a tournament uses existing 3D terrain, when placing terrain during setup, players should choose the total number of terrain pieces listed on the round’s deployment card, regardless of the dangerous and defensive types."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Now, I don't know what exactly all of that means, but since FFG tend to have a lot of overlap in tournament rules, it wouldn't surprise me if Legion rules are similar.

Runewars deployment cards specify three pieces of terrain.  What the above means is that on the large end of things, you can have two piece of terrain with a 7-9" diameter and one piece with a 0-3" diameter.  Next step down would be a 7-9" piece, a 5-7" piece and a 3-5" piece.

In other words, Runewars is a game that is played with relatively few pieces of terrain.

If I had to guess, I'd guess the below for Legion.

  • There will be rules for creating custom terrain pieces, much like there are for Runewars.
  • The included barricades will be considered terrain pieces.
  • Before army deployment, players will take turns placing terrain pieces.  I'm guessing 4 per player, which uses up the barricades included in the core box.

That way, you don't need custom terrain, but making some gives the game a little more variety.  I'd expect official FFG events will just use the barricades (and whatever else might come out in the future).  I could see FFG putting out other terrain kits to add official deployment options.

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There is almost no way I can see that only the barricades will be used for tournament terrain in Legion. It just isn't enough cover for even the 3x3 demo boards, let alone a 3x6 play area!

They had special 3D terrain elements made for their demo boards for a reason... this game was made with "true line of sight" factored in. 

And as such there will be a requirement for 3D terrain in a tournament setting... just like there is in almost every other "proper" Miniture wargame.

And I seriously doubt that the terrain will be "deployed" each game round... would just eat up too much time in a game with what I expect to be 90-120 min game rounds as is.

Most likely the tables will be set up by the TO (tournament organizer) ahead of time and table numbers assigned just like in Warmachine, Infinity, etc.

It will fall on the TO's to ensure that the table density is ok and not set up with too much bias to one side or the other.... but this is also left up to the TO's personal discretion, which means each tournament can vary depending on the TO running it.

We have two local stores here that run Infinity, and the table set ups vary quite a bit from store to store.

There will most likely be some "guidelines" in the core set rules. But I doubt the will be very hard set in nature.

... but I could be wrong! ?

 

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5 hours ago, Palomarus said:

There is almost no way I can see that only the barricades will be used for tournament terrain in Legion. It just isn't enough cover for even the 3x3 demo boards, let alone a 3x6 play area!

They had special 3D terrain elements made for their demo boards for a reason... this game was made with "true line of sight" factored in. 

And as such there will be a requirement for 3D terrain in a tournament setting... just like there is in almost every other "proper" Miniture wargame.

And I seriously doubt that the terrain will be "deployed" each game round... would just eat up too much time in a game with what I expect to be 90-120 min game rounds as is.

Most likely the tables will be set up by the TO (tournament organizer) ahead of time and table numbers assigned just like in Warmachine, Infinity, etc.

It will fall on the TO's to ensure that the table density is ok and not set up with too much bias to one side or the other.... but this is also left up to the TO's personal discretion, which means each tournament can vary depending on the TO running it.

We have two local stores here that run Infinity, and the table set ups vary quite a bit from store to store.

There will most likely be some "guidelines" in the core set rules. But I doubt the will be very hard set in nature.

... but I could be wrong! ?

 

Very possible you're right, but...  FFG tends to be somewhat particular about their organized play.  They're like McDonald's.  The set up is designed so that you get the same experience no matter where you play.  I'm really curious to see how they handle terrain in Legion.  With Runewars, it's very rigorously structured.  I think it'll be at least a little structured for Legion.

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On 9/16/2017 at 2:21 PM, charlesanakin said:

Is it possible that terrain and cover will be limited similar to how X-Wing and Armada use pre-sized obstacles? Could we see terrain base sizes and then players are free to mount whatever tree, bush, rock, etc they choose (or is thematic)? This also leads me to wonder how tournaments will be played? Will all tournament tables be the same or will it simply be fine to use different terrains for each table and players just have to deal and adapt? Who will provide the tables? Will their be FFG standards for table builds? 

Ive seen lots of amazing hobbyists with great terrain but we know so little about how FFG views terrain and cover. 

Not a chance this happens

 

On 9/17/2017 at 0:28 AM, Lord Tareq said:

I hope its similar to other wargames, so each player takes turns placing terrain, and you can have pretty much as much terrain as both players agree on but usually not more than 25% of the table.

ps. I do hope they tweak terrain rules a little to distinguish 'light' and 'heavy' cover. As it doesn't make much sense that a unit of troopers in a concrete bunker only cancels out 1 attack die.

This had already been addressed in the team covenant video and another that I can't remember

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On 9/17/2017 at 0:31 PM, DarkTemplars said:

I'm thinking that cardboard punchouts will be used. Even the Runewars demos from GenCon 2016 didn't use the punchouts. The punchouts make it easier on stores and FFG for logistics when it comes to larger events. 

Nope we already know the full contents of the core set

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This is going to be what I would call a "proper war-game", unlike X-Wing or Armada. Which while both awesome for what they are, if we are being honest they were a way to shift some of the "board game crowd" into miniature gaming.

...perhaps in preparation for this game! ; )

And in the demo's with Covenant and several other places they have commented on this being a "true line of sight" game. Meaning that terrain will need to be 3D in order to block LOS or provide cover. Which I feel is backed up by the fact that they provided 8 barricades in the Core Set are 3D models and not simply card board cut outs. Which they obviously would have been if 2D flat terrain was going to be the direction FFG was going to go with this game.

Let alone the fact that Luke has a "Jump" ability that lets him leap up to height 1 (whether its speed 1 or range 1 distance right now is in some debate) and get on top of terrain. Which would seem kind of silly with flat card board terrain.

The barricades are most likely going to be the "minimum" terrain that will be required for a game of Legion, and are a solid form of "Cover Providing" terrain elements. But in addition you will also need a good amount of additional "LOS Blocking" terrain elements as well such as buildings, rock formations, etc.

Also with regards to Runewars (which I have never played but I am assuming is similar to the old Warhammer Fantasy in terms of weapon types) it is Fantasy based game and I assume has a lot less emphasis focused on ranged combat, and a lot more importance on melee combat. Which takes a lot of the importance of 3D terrain away, as terrain is more of a way to hinder movement and maneuvers, and less about blocking or hindering LOS.

Where Legion is most likely going to be the opposite and more ranged combat focused (aside from light sword wielding space wizards of course!), and every troop type shown so far has at least 1 type of ranged attack. Even Vader has his lightsaber throw... although it admittedly is an add-on, I can't see leaving home without it in my games given his slow speed one movement rate.

Just my 2 cents... but I just can't see 2D terrain being usable in this game. 

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9 minutes ago, Palomarus said:

Let alone the fact that Luke has a "Jump" ability that lets him leap up to height 1 (whether its speed 1 or range 1 distance right now is in some debate) and get on top of terrain.

Just an aside, but I recall in the how-to-play video them taking the ruler, standing it up, pointing to range 1 and  saying "this is how high he can jump."

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31 minutes ago, Blackbird888 said:

Just an aside, but I recall in the how-to-play video them taking the ruler, standing it up, pointing to range 1 and  saying "this is how high he can jump."

I thought I read somewhere else that they said speed 1 instead, casting some doubt ... but cant find it anywhere know... so I stand corrected! ; )

And since range 1 has been identified as 6", that means that there should also be some terrain taller than 6" on the board to block Jedi "Force Leaps" and limit their jumping around the boards unhindered.

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