Aingeru

Deluxes 2.0 (Revised Deluxes)

32 posts in this topic

Hi,

 

with the release of the Core 2.0, it opens the possibility to revision of current factional deluxes.

What do you think about it?
Would it be really necessary? (only troublesome card seems to be Clone chi`p and with the rotation of Parasite that could be also solved)

It could be also a "design parachute" to recover rotated cards for future Rotations.

Best regards

 

Edited by Aingeru
Jargon unification

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I would say there's no reason to expect that right now.

1. Fixing issues in the Core Set that are far and away more problematic for new players is a much more pressing concern.

2. Spin and Genesis cycle were never designed to rotate, so there were some staple cards that ought to stick around.

I think the Revised Core Set was an elegant solution to use each problem to solve the other. I expect things will be stable otherwise for quite some time.

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51 minutes ago, Mep said:

They can always make new deluxe that features old cards once a couple more cycles rotate out.

Yeah, that was what I meant.

As no new cards are released it is an elegant way of recovering not-overpowered necessary cards.

This way small meta-shift could be generated without real economical impact for players.

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They could, and the minimal impact to players who own all the cards was certainly a plus in the Revised Core Set's favor. 

But I genuinely don't think there is any reason to predict that it will happen any time in the foreseeable future.

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I had been trying to find it (but unable).

IF I remember correctly when Rotation was announced (or maybe I am confussing it with Cache Refresh format?), they said it would consist of Core + LATEST VERSION of deluxes + # Cycles

That would hint both the Core 2.0 and Deluxes 2.0

 

EDIT: Found it!

Back November 2014
https://twitter.com/teamcovenant/status/530152234546257920/photo/1

B1t6pMSIYAAPp8P.jpg

 

Edited by Aingeru
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Yes, we've known for years that they *could.* This is nothing whatsoever new or current. 

There is no information that affirmatively indicates they have any plans to update the Deluxes, not remotely like there was for Core 2.0.

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9 hours ago, Grimwalker said:

Yes, we've known for years that they *could.* This is nothing whatsoever new or current. 

There is no information that affirmatively indicates they have any plans to update the Deluxes, not remotely like there was for Core 2.0.

Well, it is not only that "they could", it is that it was foreseen 3 years ago.

Also,  "There is no formal information that negates they have any plans to update the Deluxes "

EDIT: In any case, this post is not for ping/pong-ing whetever FFG is going to update them or not, but to ask the ANetrunner players if they think it would be necessary and their general opinion about it.

 

Edited by Aingeru

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No, it's not necessary or desirable, for the reasons outlined above. The only reason they've done it once is because of specific problems related to Core 1.0/Genesis/Spin. 

"We don't know that they won't" is a deeply silly reason to believe that they will. The "Null Hypothesis" holds until it's actually overturned. 

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I would be really surprised if they don't update them. Their business model seems to be one "big" set per data pack cycle. Creation and Control will be 4 years old by the time the new cycle starts. 

As a business I think they have some difficult choices to make about what to do next. They could focus on "campaign" sets (2 runner, 2 corp per box) for a while and introduce rotation at some point by attaching campaigns to data cycles. That way the campaign rotates out with the cycle. 

If they do that, they could make the deluxes reprint only like the revised core and also associate them with rotation. So maybe Creation and Control "revised" would draw on cards from original C&C plus a selection of cards from rotated out sets. 

That is probably what I would do. Would I like it as a player? I think so. LCGs do need a dynamic card pool with an easy to understand start point for any new player. Core + deluxe enables that.  I certainly like the idea of campaign sets (though I wasn't that impressed by the execution of Terminal Directive) so campaign plus 6 data packs exploring the same setting/story for each cycle feels like it would work.

I think personally if they did do revised deluxes I would prefer them to be single faction rather than runner plus corp in each box. E.g. The Shaper Faction might be 3 new IDs, 33x3 other Shaper Cards and 14 other runner cards: e.g. 3 crim, 3 anarch, 3 mini factions, 5 neutrals. Each of the non-shaper ones being cards that play well with Shapers. 

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3 hours ago, Deleriad said:

[...]As a business I think they have some difficult choices to make about what to do next. They could focus on "campaign" sets (2 runner, 2 corp per box) for a while and introduce rotation at some point by attaching campaigns to data cycles. That way the campaign rotates out with the cycle. 

If they do that, they could make the deluxes reprint only like the revised core and also associate them with rotation. So maybe Creation and Control "revised" would draw on cards from original C&C plus a selection of cards from rotated out sets. [...]

You have brought an important point.

When rotation was announced there were no Campaign expansions, how should they be integrated in Rotation? As deluxe packs (no rotation) or cycle packs?
In the first case, they would increase (progresively) the Card Pool and come back to initial problem.
In the second case, it would imply short-live small cycle (not sure if that is good or bad... at least a bit expensive from my player/customer point of view).

Probably, what you suggest is the better idea, reviewing periodically (one core/deluxe every 2 years?) could shift both the meta and amending problematic cards/iterations.

By the way, even if it was not stated before.
KUDOS to FFG & ANr Design Team, for providing a list of Revised Core and allowing "old" ANr Players to avoid having to buy additional (Revised Core). Thanks (although they do not read this Forum ;))

 

3 hours ago, Deleriad said:

[..]

I think personally if they did do revised deluxes I would prefer them to be single faction rather than runner plus corp in each box. E.g. The Shaper Faction might be 3 new IDs, 33x3 other Shaper Cards and 14 other runner cards: e.g. 3 crim, 3 anarch, 3 mini factions, 5 neutrals. Each of the non-shaper ones being cards that play well with Shapers. 

I personally like the Runner+Corp Deluxes, as I consider Core = Entry level and Deluxe = ¿Learning level?.

As you need both a Runner and Corp decks, with only 1-2 Core + 1 Deluxe, you could play entertaining games (I would avoid for now the "competitive" word)

One of my big concerns was that the preconstructed decks indicated in the deluxes were quite bad, and do not understand why they do not use cards from Core (and Influence points), both as quick decks for non-Org.Play Players and for Starting Players. Hope they amend that in the future.

 

Edited by Aingeru
Orto
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9 hours ago, Aingeru said:

When rotation was announced there were no Campaign expansions, how should they be integrated in Rotation? As deluxe packs (no rotation) or cycle packs?

The defined rotation schedule applies to Data Packs. If it's not a Data Pack, it's not part of the rotation schedule. Core Sets, Deluxe Sets, and Campaign Sets are few enough in number that if they need to rotate, it can be dealt with on an individual, as-needed basis, as has been done with the Core Set. In so many words, they rotate when they're replaced. I don't see any reason they necessarily need to think about that right now, or that Campaign expansions will be numerous enough to defeat the purpose of rotating the Data Packs.

As for the rest, it's all speculation and wishful thinking. There's no reason to anticipate revisions to existing deluxes at the moment.

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Are there that many problem cards from the deluxes that they need to rotate them out?

Also part of rotation is to shrink the card pool. How many deluxes come out before rotation is needed for them? 

I don't see deluxes as a problem yet so I don't see them on the cutting block ... yet. Probably years away from this happening.

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On 19/09/2017 at 3:19 AM, Mep said:

Are there that many problem cards from the deluxes that they need to rotate them out?

Also part of rotation is to shrink the card pool. How many deluxes come out before rotation is needed for them? 

I don't see deluxes as a problem yet so I don't see them on the cutting block ... yet. Probably years away from this happening.

That is why I asked, I do not know if there is some problem with cards in Deluxe packs, but when Rotation was presented it was insisted on keeping the Card Pool between 1280 and 1500 unique cards.
RotationPool.jpg

In fact, in latest communications, FFG  admitted that Rotation has come a bit later for ANetrunner than necessary, although card pool is smaller than initially estimated.

Lets make some numbers:

Before Rotation: Core (113) + Deluxes (4*55) + Cycles (7*120) + Campaign (1*57) = 1230
After Rotation: Core 2.0 (132) + Deluxes (4*55) + Cycles (5*120) + Campaign (1*57) = 1009
Before Next Rotation: Core 2.0 (132) + Deluxes (4*55) + Cycles (7*120) + Campaign (???*57) = 1249 + [(???-1)*57]

Although I like the Campaign ideas and think FFG will use for future (campaign oriented deluxes for L5RLCG), they insert almost half-cycle quantity of cards, consider how impacted meta half the cards from SanSan or Mumbad ...
As comented, larger card pools imply larger design constrains as more iterations has to be tested (and probably accidentally be ovelooked)

As you remark, part of the rotation is to shrink card pool, so I am not suggesting that Deluxes rotate out, but instead if it should advisable that FFG review Deluxes (in Core 2.0 way) to rotate out no longer played cards and as a way of rotating in "staple" cards (from rotated out cycles) for a balanced meta.

In FFG words:

Quote

 

By cycling out older monthly expansions, we address the issues that present themselves with the unchecked growth of a game’s card pool:

  • Rotation encourages new evolutions within the metagame. As older cycles and their core themes and mechanics phase out, their departures open holes within the metagame that will be filled with creative new deck ideas. Power cards will enjoy their time in the spotlight before rotating out, the card pool will remain a more balanced environment, and the restricted and banned lists on our FAQs and Tournament Rules will shrink, rather than grow.
  • Rotation makes it easier for new and potential players to enjoy our games. Our rotation policy restricts the size of our oldest LCGs while maintaining growth, evolution, and a card pool mature enough to feature a wide range of dynamic strategies.
  • Rotation makes us a better partner to our retailers. Rotation limits the number of packs that retailers need to carry on their shelves in order to grow their local communities.
  • Rotation helps us grow our games into new territories and languages, expanding their communities across the world.

 

 

 

Edited by Aingeru
Ortog

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bear in mind those totals were meant to cover other LCGs, too. AGOT will have 8 Deluxe sets, one per faction, when all is said and done. Conquest was on course to have a large stock of Deluxes as well. Anybody's guess what they'll do for L5R.

As far as FFG's comments on the lateness of rotation, certainly they initially anticipated that it might have occurred 4-5 months ago, well in advance of Worlds 2017. With the delays of RCS and Kitara, it wasn't going to come in time for the big event. At the time it wasn't clear how they intended to address this, but it seems now that they've just gone ahead and declared rotation effective as of 10/1, rather than changing the nature of the system. It seems likely that the 2nd cycle following Kitara will still roll off Lunar/SanSan as originally planned.

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Yes, given enough time and deluxe expansions there will be too many cards in the pool again. That however is a happy problem since it means ration worked and netrunner survived long enough to have that problem. As of right now they have to figure out if their current efforts ultimately did anything other than generate a bit of buz.

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I think they did a lot of good with the Core revision. That said, they may have to pull a few more OP cards to get the rest of the way there. Sadly it would mean effectively a ban list but may be needed (in a way Core 2.0 was a sort of ban list). 

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2 hours ago, Joelist said:

I think they did a lot of good with the Core revision. That said, they may have to pull a few more OP cards to get the rest of the way there. Sadly it would mean effectively a ban list but may be needed (in a way Core 2.0 was a sort of ban list). 

It is a way of seeing it I had not thought of, but makes sense.

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On 19/09/2017 at 3:00 AM, Grimwalker said:

The defined rotation schedule applies to Data Packs. If it's not a Data Pack, it's not part of the rotation schedule. Core Sets, Deluxe Sets, and Campaign Sets are few enough in number that if they need to rotate, it can be dealt with on an individual, as-needed basis, as has been done with the Core Set. In so many words, they rotate when they're replaced. I don't see any reason they necessarily need to think about that right now, or that Campaign expansions will be numerous enough to defeat the purpose of rotating the Data Packs.

As for the rest, it's all speculation and wishful thinking. There's no reason to anticipate revisions to existing deluxes at the moment.

 

On 19/09/2017 at 3:19 AM, Mep said:

Are there that many problem cards from the deluxes that they need to rotate them out?

Also part of rotation is to shrink the card pool. How many deluxes come out before rotation is needed for them? 

I don't see deluxes as a problem yet so I don't see them on the cutting block ... yet. Probably years away from this happening.

Unless they release a Banned/Restricted list...

Edited by Aingeru
Remove question mark...

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On 21/09/2017 at 6:57 PM, Grimwalker said:

I don't think that's in any way relevant.

 

On 21/09/2017 at 9:05 PM, Mep said:

It would seem their preferred way to handle trouble cards is through the NAPD MWL.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/9/27/arrest-warrants-issued/

I seems they have changed their preferred ways...

Now (starting 1st October) there will be Restricted cards in deluxes (and newbie Shaper deck in core 2.0 will be ILLEGAL... Aesop+MOpus...)

EDIT: By the way, Core 2.0 appears now in UPCOMING as  "In Development"

Edited by Aingeru

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On 27-9-2017 at 7:52 PM, Aingeru said:

 (and newbie Shaper deck in core 2.0 will be ILLEGAL... Aesop+MOpus...)

This has to be a mistake, right? The designers cannot have nerfed their own deck before the Revised Core is even released?

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2 hours ago, cheapmate said:

This has to be a mistake, right? The designers cannot have nerfed their own deck before the Revised Core is even released?

Do not know but according to provided docs:

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/00/9c/009c2fa5-a0c2-402a-acf3-6e051613e4ca/adn49_cardlist.pdf

Shaper: Aesop + MOpus

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/6c/cc/6ccc65fe-3fc8-467c-ac4d-5dca161a66ff/upcoming_adn_mwl_v20.pdf

Restricted: Aesop & MOpus

 

If I got it wrong, please, do not hesitate to correct me...

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