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awp832

Rules: Yorrick + Baseball bat timing

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If Yorrick draws a Skull token with the baseball bat but also defeats the enemy he was attacking,  what happens exactly?    I think it is this way:

1.  Attack resolves completely, enemy is defeated, Yorrick can trigger his ability.

2.  Baseball bat breaks.

 

IE:  Yorrick can't get the baseball bat right back even if he has the resources, but he can get something else.    Does this seem right?

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Baseball bat is discarded "after the attack resolves". At a guess, that means after ST8 (the end of the skill test, because "an investigator resolves an attack against that enemy by making a combat test against the enemy’s fight value" - Fight Action, RR p. 12), while Yorick's reaction kicks in after ST7 (apply skill test results - which means dealing damage to the enemy and possibly defeating it).

So Yorick (I guess few people are going to use his first name) indeed cannot get back the bat he used if it breaks.

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That's what I was thinking.   How about the case of Guard Dog/Brother Xavier, and the separate case of Beat Cop-2 using his last HP to defeat an enemy?

Aside:  I don't know why I call him Yorick.  I mean I know that I call him that because that's what I always called him in the other Arkham Files games.  I don't know why I decided to call him Yorick instead of William.    But I have never called him William.  

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7 hours ago, Khudzlin said:

So Yorick (I guess few people are going to use his first name) indeed cannot get back the bat he used if it breaks.

That's because not many people know Billy like I do.  He a pretty chill guy.  Grab a six pack head out to the cemetery after hours and just hang with him for a while.  That is if you can handle his monologues about ghouls infiltrating the Supreme Court and the fact that he seems to think the solution to any problem is another lantern.

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Yeah, I was hoping that they would use specific wording on their timing charts that would match up with these types of situations, but I couldn't decide what the case is by analyzing it either.  I also assume that we can't get that bat back, and until we do know it's Grim Ruled that way anyway, heh.

I still like the idea of the baseball bat with him though.  It's cheap, will break and then you can likely get it back afterwards on a subsequent turn.  It might have me playing bandolier so that I can also carry something else as backup.

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The trigger to discard the baseball bat is 'after the attack resolves'. The skill test that is the attack isn't 100% done until after ST.8 but the enemy is actually defeated at step ST.7 when you apply the skill test results and you use poor Yorick's ability 'After you defeat an enemy'. It's the same reason you can't scavenge for an item you committed to a skill test on that same test. In that situation you scavenge at step ST.6 and the cards actually hit the discard pile on step ST.8.

I believe the same logic should apply here, just at slightly different steps.

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One guy in my playgroup is using the knife. Since you discard it as a cost (for the 2nd action), you can get it back just after you defeat the enemy. It's quite funny to see him chuck his knife and get it back repeatedly :lol:

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I think both effect resolve at the end of ST.7, as the baseball bat breaking and the enemy being defeated are both consequences of the skill test, in which case the following comes into effect:

If there are multiple results to be applied during this step, the investigator performing the test applies those results in the order of his or her choice. (Rules Reference page 27)

I would personally not Grim Rule this one.

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13 hours ago, Bronze said:

I still like the idea of the baseball bat with him though.  It's cheap, will break and then you can likely get it back afterwards on a subsequent turn.  It might have me playing bandolier so that I can also carry something else as backup.

I would love to be able to make use of the Bandolier properly. I love the idea of it (with William or Mark) but have yet to actually use it in a game. There are always better cards to play.

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This has nothing to do with the Grim Rule: the bat breaks after the attack resolves, which is at the very end of the skill test (ST8), because the attack is the skill test.

 

Quote

[Action] Fight. You get +2 [Combat] for this attack. This attack deals +1 damage. If a [Skull] or [Tentacles] symbol is revealed during this attack, discard Baseball Bat after the attack resolves.

 

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11 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

This has nothing to do with the Grim Rule: the bat breaks after the attack resolves, which is at the very end of the skill test (ST8), because the attack is the skill test.

 

 

Exactly, after the attack resolves:

Resolve the appropriate consequences (based on the success or failure established during step ST.6) at this time. (Rules Reference page 27 ST.7)

Edited by cheapmate

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2 minutes ago, cheapmate said:

Exactly, after the attack resolves:

Resolve the appropriate consequences (based on the success or failure established during step ST.6) at this time. (Rules Reference page 27 ST.7)

Fight action, page 12.

Quote

To fight an enemy at his or her location, an investigator resolves an attack against that enemy by making a combat test against the enemy’s fight value (see “Skill Tests” on page 18).

The attack is more than its consequences, it's the whole skill test.

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12 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

The attack is more than its consequences, it's the whole skill test.

I always played it so the result (damage in this case) is determined in ST.6 and assigned in ST.7. Whenever the enemy has damage on it equal to its health it is defeated directly, regardless of phase or turn, so it would be defeated and placed in the discard pile before ST.8.

 

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The enemy being assigned damage is indeed a consequence of the attack and happens in ST.7 (and if that damage is enough to defeat it, it goes to the discard pile -or victory display- right then). However, the attack is not fully resolved until ST.8 and that's when Baseball Bat is discarded, per its text.

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32 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

The enemy being assigned damage is indeed a consequence of the attack and happens in ST.7 (and if that damage is enough to defeat it, it goes to the discard pile -or victory display- right then). However, the attack is not fully resolved until ST.8 and that's when Baseball Bat is discarded, per its text.

Sounds plausible and Arkham Horroresque.

Thanks for this, I think I will be using it your way from now on.

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On 9/18/2017 at 5:17 AM, Khudzlin said:

This has nothing to do with the Grim Rule: the bat breaks after the attack resolves, which is at the very end of the skill test (ST8), because the attack is the skill test.

 

 

Don't confuse people.  That is what the Grim Rule is designed for ... when people can't find an appropriate ruling for a card.  Let's not say it has nothing to do with the Grim Rule.  It would apply if there were a ruling that people didn't agree upon.

Perhaps you are right, perhaps you are wrong.  But decisions that are unclear definitely fall under the Grim Rule.

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1 hour ago, Bronze said:

Don't confuse people.  That is what the Grim Rule is designed for ... when people can't find an appropriate ruling for a card.  Let's not say it has nothing to do with the Grim Rule.  It would apply if there were a ruling that people didn't agree upon.

Perhaps you are right, perhaps you are wrong.  But decisions that are unclear definitely fall under the Grim Rule.

Whether or not people agree on the ruling is irrelevant. It is clearly defined. Defeating an enemy happens in Step 7 of a skill test. The Bat breaks after the test resolves, which is Step 8. So the Bat is not in your discard pile when Yorick triggers his ability.

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4 hours ago, Bronze said:

Perhaps you are right, perhaps you are wrong.  But decisions that are unclear definitely fall under the Grim Rule.

The Grim Rule is for when the rules as written are unclear (or the players don't have time to go through them) It's meant to speed up games, not provide real answers. The rules reference is clear and we have all the time time we need. The Grim Rule doesn't apply here.

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Bit late but, when the Blob consumes your melee weapon, you can get this back with his ability, as it is written, "after you perform an attack." and not "after the attack resolves." Is that right?

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46 minutes ago, bern1106 said:

Bit late but, when the Blob consumes your melee weapon, you can get this back with his ability, as it is written, "after you perform an attack." and not "after the attack resolves." Is that right?

No - the descriptions here are basically the same thing.  The attack has to resolve fully before you can have performed it, so they trigger at the same time.  Both are after you resolve Yorick's ability.

 

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3 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

No - the descriptions here are basically the same thing.  The attack has to resolve fully before you can have performed it, so they trigger at the same time.  Both are after you resolve Yorick's ability.

 

Glad to hear that, I played it that way after further thought. Thanks all the same.

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On 9/16/2017 at 5:46 AM, awp832 said:

That's what I was thinking.   How about the case of Guard Dog/Brother Xavier, and the separate case of Beat Cop-2 using his last HP to defeat an enemy?

As established above, you can't Yorick the Bat on the same attack you lose it.

The Beat Cops, if they are discarded or defeated when you initiate their ability (or in other words, pay the cost of discarding Beat Cop 0 or damaging and possibly defeating Beat Cop 2) can be salvaged by Yorick immediately, because you pay  costs to initiate abilities before you resolve their effects.

Guard Dog is a little more complicated, because it's a "when" trigger, which means that it goes off before the damage dealt to the guard dog affects the game state. So the enemy attacks, you assign damage to the guard dog, but before you actually place the damage on the dog, you trigger its ability. The enemy defeated (if appropriate). *After* the enemy has taken the damage and been defeated, you finish damaging the guard dog, which may defeat it, but by then it's too late to trigger Yorick.

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