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6 hours ago, DarthDude said:

11/11 would be my guess.

That'd be some fast shipping.  Used to be it's be 6 weeks from "on the boat" to "in my hands" but that's no longer the case and hasn't been for some time.  Even if it set sail yesterday we wouldn't see it by Ozzy's birthday.  

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29 minutes ago, themensch said:

That'd be some fast shipping.  Used to be it's be 6 weeks from "on the boat" to "in my hands" but that's no longer the case and hasn't been for some time.  Even if it set sail yesterday we wouldn't see it by Ozzy's birthday.  

Nah, 11/11 when status changes to "on the boat". With much luck we will have Genesys in stores by Christmath.

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On 25.10.2017 at 11:15 PM, lyinggod said:

IMHO, pdf's are fine for novels and art books. As something that is referenced frequently, PDF's are very ponderous even when well indexed. I find that physical books are much easier to use for when frequently referenced.

On 26.10.2017 at 8:36 PM, fjw70 said:

If I had to choose between hard copy and pdf then pdf would win. 

As a matter of principle I prefer physical copies, but they naturally take up storage space and can be hard to hunt down if you start buying them too late (I still get furious when thinking about two The Dark Eye dilogy campaigns of which the respective first parts were readily available for many years - in fact AFAIK one still is even now, several years into the next edition - whereas the second parts went out of print long before the edition change announcement and haven't seen a reprint since), so particularly with RPGs it depends in practice on these and a couple more factors whether I collect dead tree editions or am content with digital copies. That said, while I agree that novels read perfectly fine on an e-reader or mobile device, I am of two minds when it comes to artbooks (digital may be more useful, but you can only properly appreciate the pictures as a whole as large prints). Anyway, in terms of convenience I'd say that flipping through rulebooks and sourcebooks physically is quicker whereas adventures are much less of a hassle behind game master screens on a tablet than in paper format.

On 26.10.2017 at 11:27 PM, twincast said:

Asmodee has quite some time to figure things out to get more of my money before I'm forced to look for some other system we can all live with.

Thinking back on my pondering from a few years ago, the most likely candidate by far would then be (so far German-only) Splittermond. Just so you know.

On 27.10.2017 at 9:55 PM, PadreBoniface said:

Heartattack everytime I see a post in this topic...

Sorry. :o:unsure::P

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2 hours ago, twincast said:

As a matter of principle I prefer physical copies, but they naturally take up storage space and can be hard to hunt down if you start buying them too late.

I feel the same way. Every once in a while some one in my group has heard of an old classic RPG that is long out of print or nearly so that they want to play. Then its a search to see the necessary books can be found on anywhere, or (reluctantly) as PDFs on DriveThruRPG. It seems that more often then not, we cant find the books at all until someone stumbles across an old scanned copy. If we get deep into the game, a few players may get a physical copy via Print On Demand. More often then not we find that most of the old scans are very low quality, difficult to read, and definitely not suitable for printing. This makes for a lot of grumbling over being stuck with PDFs. 

I will be the first in my group to get Genesys (Physical copy). if my group likes what they see, then we will have 3-4 more physical copies. They love SW but are not thrilled with the idea of Universal/Tool kit systems. My fault, I showed them HERO and their heads exploded. Now they are hesitantly optimistic on Genesys. If they bite, no one in my group will be using PDFs.

 In case your wondering, if the PDF is available on DriveThru then we require players to have a copy with their name embedded before we will play the game or allow them to use their own copy of a PDF. We do everything we can to support the dev's as we want them to keep making more stuff for our favorite systems. When possible our PoD is also from DriveThruRpg.

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On 10/27/2017 at 11:30 AM, twincast said:

Battlemist and Diskwars came first, many years before. Then came Runebound (quickly revised into the so-called 2nd Edition) and Descent with a plethora of expansions over the next few years. And then came in relatively quick succession so far (on average one new base game per year) Runewars, DungeonQuest 3rd Edition (but not the Revised Edition that followed it), Rune Age, Descent 2nd Edition, BattleLore 2nd Edition, Runebound 3rd Edition, Runewars Miniatures Game, and soon Legacy of Dragonholt, all of which (with the exception of Runebound 3E, naturally, and the upcoming LoD, curiously enough) and currently most of their expansions (fairly arbitrary exceptions so far being those for Rune Age and BattleLore 2E, the Conversion Kit, the Dice Pack and the Lieutenant Packs for Descent 2E, and everything but the Army Expansions and the Essentials Pack for RWMG) getting a little "A Game Set in the Runebound Universe" logo in the bottom right corner of every box/book cover, presumably because Runebound was their first big hit set in Terrinoth. (Other languages' get either Runebound or Terrinoth.)

Never heard of Battlemist or Diskwars. but I believe you.  My first FF game was Runebound many years ago and then Descent. Runebound was first to introduce the iconic characters and the feel of the setting?

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14 hours ago, lyinggod said:

I feel the same way. Every once in a while some one in my group has heard of an old classic RPG that is long out of print or nearly so that they want to play. Then its a search to see the necessary books can be found on anywhere, or (reluctantly) as PDFs on DriveThruRPG. It seems that more often then not, we cant find the books at all until someone stumbles across an old scanned copy. If we get deep into the game, a few players may get a physical copy via Print On Demand. More often then not we find that most of the old scans are very low quality, difficult to read, and definitely not suitable for printing. This makes for a lot of grumbling over being stuck with PDFs. 

I will be the first in my group to get Genesys (Physical copy). if my group likes what they see, then we will have 3-4 more physical copies. They love SW but are not thrilled with the idea of Universal/Tool kit systems. My fault, I showed them HERO and their heads exploded. Now they are hesitantly optimistic on Genesys. If they bite, no one in my group will be using PDFs.

 In case your wondering, if the PDF is available on DriveThru then we require players to have a copy with their name embedded before we will play the game or allow them to use their own copy of a PDF. We do everything we can to support the dev's as we want them to keep making more stuff for our favorite systems. When possible our PoD is also from DriveThruRpg.

I don’t pirate PDFs but if someone at the table asked me to prove I own a pdf then I would find a new table. :)

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1 hour ago, fjw70 said:

I don’t pirate PDFs but if someone at the table asked me to prove I own a pdf then I would find a new table. :)

We have a core group that have been playing together for a long time and agreed to this standard long ago. We trust each other to continue this and don't check each other. However we also, by necessity, play at the local game store and every once in a while someone seeks to join our group. We then inform them of this expectation. Apparently this causes concern among those who might wish to join since we don't end up adding people vary often even when we have the room to actually add a person or two. Either they came by their PDF's illicitly or don't like their integrity questioned (or both). We have even bought PDFs of old publications that came out on DriveThruRPG from the publisher even after we had already gotten a high quality fan scan. 

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To the general response to book vs electrons - I like to have core books and big supplements physically  - hardcover big books. Anything 64 pages or less, I'm fine with PDF, and I often get the PDF of the core books as well - the "search" function is very handy at the table for electronic versions. But, if I don't have the rulebook on my shelf, I don't feel like I own the game, even if I only use PDF in play.

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16 hours ago, lyinggod said:

I will be the first in my group to get Genesys (Physical copy). if my group likes what they see, then we will have 3-4 more physical copies. They love SW but are not thrilled with the idea of Universal/Tool kit systems. My fault, I showed them HERO and their heads exploded. Now they are hesitantly optimistic on Genesys. If they bite, no one in my group will be using PDFs.

 In case your wondering, if the PDF is available on DriveThru then we require players to have a copy with their name embedded before we will play the game or allow them to use their own copy of a PDF. We do everything we can to support the dev's as we want them to keep making more stuff for our favorite systems. When possible our PoD is also from DriveThruRpg.

While I'm definitely all in favor of supporting game designers and publishers, this seems like a pretty extreme stance. The pattern for my group is that usually one person buys a new game that they are excited about, and that person runs the game. If it's a game that we haven't played before, there's no way that every person in my group is going to invest in that game. If it's something that we like and we stick with it, however, we will go ahead and start buying other copies of the game out of convenience. If everyone was required to own a copy of the game, we'd never end up playing anything new. Especially given the fact that our group has a very diverse range of incomes, from engineers to a store clerk. 

In fact, I'm confident that I have purchased more games from having had the chance to test them out first for a while than I would have if sharing books had been banned from my group. 

Additionally, to grow the tabletop RPG hobby, we have to ensure that the barrier to entry is not overly daunting to people. I've introduced probably a dozen or more people to the hobby by letting them jump into a one-shot or guest in an ongoing campaign, and there's no way they would do so if I expected them to buy a book first.

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1 minute ago, politicfish said:

While I'm definitely all in favor of supporting game designers and publishers, this seems like a pretty extreme stance. The pattern for my group is that usually one person buys a new game that they are excited about, and that person runs the game. If it's a game that we haven't played before, there's no way that every person in my group is going to invest in that game. If it's something that we like and we stick with it, however, we will go ahead and start buying other copies of the game out of convenience. If everyone was required to own a copy of the game, we'd never end up playing anything new. Especially given the fact that our group has a very diverse range of incomes, from engineers to a store clerk. 

In fact, I'm confident that I have purchased more games from having had the chance to test them out first for a while than I would have if sharing books had been banned from my group. 

Additionally, to grow the tabletop RPG hobby, we have to ensure that the barrier to entry is not overly daunting to people. I've introduced probably a dozen or more people to the hobby by letting them jump into a one-shot or guest in an ongoing campaign, and there's no way they would do so if I expected them to buy a book first.

I was not clear. We don't require anyone to own their own copy as we approach new systems in much the same way your group does. I was trying to say that the expectation is that if a PDF is used, it must be legal or reasonably unavailable in any other format (physical or via DriveThruRPG).

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2 minutes ago, lyinggod said:

I was not clear. We don't require anyone to own their own copy as we approach new systems in much the same way your group does. I was trying to say that the expectation is that if a PDF is used, it must be legal or reasonably unavailable in any other format (physical or via DriveThruRPG).

Oh, ok gotcha. I thought you were requiring everyone own the game before playing it. Which seemed a little overboard. 

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6 hours ago, TrainedMunkey said:

Never heard of Battlemist or Diskwars. but I believe you.  My first FF game was Runebound many years ago and then Descent. Runebound was first to introduce the iconic characters and the feel of the setting?

Depends on what you mean by iconic characters. Battlemist and Diskwars form the ancient history mentioned in pretty much every Terrinoth product since (origins of Daqan, Waiqar, Uthuk, Runes et al.).

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6 hours ago, lyinggod said:

We have a core group that have been playing together for a long time and agreed to this standard long ago. We trust each other to continue this and don't check each other. However we also, by necessity, play at the local game store and every once in a while someone seeks to join our group. We then inform them of this expectation. Apparently this causes concern among those who might wish to join since we don't end up adding people vary often even when we have the room to actually add a person or two. Either they came by their PDF's illicitly or don't like their integrity questioned (or both). We have even bought PDFs of old publications that came out on DriveThruRPG from the publisher even after we had already gotten a high quality fan scan. 

 I would struggle to see it as questioning of my integrity. We have a similar rule; we support the gaming industry and don't engage in acts of piracy that deprive game companies of the revenue to make theirs a viable business. It's basically the "DBAD" rule, for players.

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30 minutes ago, Endersai said:

 I would struggle to see it as questioning of my integrity. We have a similar rule; we support the gaming industry and don't engage in acts of piracy that deprive game companies of the revenue to make theirs a viable business. It's basically the "DBAD" rule, for players.

We support the industry, but I'd never ask a friend to give proof of his honesty for no other reason than principle. If I had to, he would not be my friend. Get some better friends is my advice, instead of having to require proof of honesty ;)

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1 minute ago, Gallows said:

We support the industry, but I'd never ask a friend to give proof of his honesty for no other reason than principle. If I had to, he would not be my friend. Get some better friends is my advice, instead of having to require proof of honesty ;)

Except he specifically said they were asking it of new people via their FLGS, so...

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3 hours ago, Endersai said:

Except he specifically said they were asking it of new people via their FLGS, so...

 

On 29/10/2017 at 11:15 PM, lyinggod said:

I feel the same way. Every once in a while some one in my group has heard of an old classic RPG that is long out of print or nearly so that they want to play. Then its a search to see the necessary books can be found on anywhere, or (reluctantly) as PDFs on DriveThruRPG. It seems that more often then not, we cant find the books at all until someone stumbles across an old scanned copy. If we get deep into the game, a few players may get a physical copy via Print On Demand. More often then not we find that most of the old scans are very low quality, difficult to read, and definitely not suitable for printing. This makes for a lot of grumbling over being stuck with PDFs. 

I will be the first in my group to get Genesys (Physical copy). if my group likes what they see, then we will have 3-4 more physical copies. They love SW but are not thrilled with the idea of Universal/Tool kit systems. My fault, I showed them HERO and their heads exploded. Now they are hesitantly optimistic on Genesys. If they bite, no one in my group will be using PDFs.

 In case your wondering, if the PDF is available on DriveThru then we require players to have a copy with their name embedded before we will play the game or allow them to use their own copy of a PDF. We do everything we can to support the dev's as we want them to keep making more stuff for our favorite systems. When possible our PoD is also from DriveThruRpg.

Don't see the specific mention of new players in the post I read, although it may be elsewhere in the thread. There isn't much gaming with random people, where I live, so I guess that's why I've never had a problem with it. Still, I'm not going to police people like that. I would certainly tell people my opinion about stealing books in an industry that needs all the support it can get, but that's it. In any case, there is nothing to discuss, because ripping off people making RPGs for our enjoyment is detroying the hobby we love, and I'd express that opinion to people If I got the impression they have a different opinion. :)

Edited by Gallows

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I’ve heard and read the (poor) reasoning that stealing PDFs of Star Wars books is justified because FFG/Disney (I honestly do not care who or why) won’t release PDFs. This mindset appalls me. I have more respect for a thief owning up to that title than one who tries to reasons improper behavior as somehow noble. That’s not to say I approve of stealing as long as you call it what it is, I simply find it even more galling when a person tries to justify stealing PDFs by making themselves the victim, if that makes sense. The point is, don’t steal stuff! 

As an aside, if somebody asked me to prove I owned a PDF I would tell them to get bent and then ask to see receipts for everything they own (probably not, but you get the point ;)). It’s sad that stealing electronic media has become so ubiquitous it’s assumed many people do it. 

Edited by Alderaan Crumbs

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12 hours ago, Gallows said:

 

Don't see the specific mention of new players in the post I read, although it may be elsewhere in the thread. There isn't much gaming with random people, where I live, so I guess that's why I've never had a problem with it. Still, I'm not going to police people like that. I would certainly tell people my opinion about stealing books in an industry that needs all the support it can get, but that's it. In any case, there is nothing to discuss, because ripping off people making RPGs for our enjoyment is detroying the hobby we love, and I'd express that opinion to people If I got the impression they have a different opinion. :)

Its not random people who show up to play once but the occasional person looking for a new group. We don't ask for proof but simply (diplomatically) express our stance on the subject. This was actually mentioned in a previous post to the one you quoted.

1 hour ago, TrainedMunkey said:

I literally own hundreds of RPG PDFs. They are all legal and only about thirty percent of them are watermarked. 

 

23 minutes ago, Alderaan Crumbs said:

I’ve heard and read the (poor) reasoning that stealing PDFs of Star Wars books is justified because FFG/Disney (I honestly do not care who or why) won’t release PDFs. This mindset appalls me. I have more respect for a thief owning up to that title than one who tries to reasons improper behavior as somehow noble. That’s not to say I approve of stealing as long as you call it what it is, I simply find it even more galling when a person tries to justify stealing PDFs by making themselves the victim, if that makes sense. The point is, don’t steal stuff! 

As an aside, if somebody asked me to prove I owned a PDF I would tell them to get bent and then ask to see receipts for everything they own (probably not, but you get the point ;)). It’s sad that stealing electronic media has become so ubiquitous it’s assumed many people do it. 

We are aware that a fair number of PDFs don't have embedded names and therefore we are not draconian about our position on legal PDFs. We present it more as an expectation and then drop the subject. Its not something that has become an issue after someone has joined our group and, no, we don't make them verify ownership via the purchase que on DriveThru or via embedded name.

This subject has gotten a lot more traction then I thought it would when all I was trying to say, perhaps poorly, was that my group discouraged piracy. :o

 

That’s not to say I approve of stealing as long as you call it what it is, I simply find it even more galling when a person tries to justify stealing PDFs by making themselves the victim, if that makes sense. The point is, don’t steal stuff! 

In America, we have a term for this. Its called Socialism. Stealing in the name of Socialism is OK went this term is used to justify one's actions. This not a correct definition of Socialism but simply a redefining of the term (unfortunately). 
This is me venting, please don't let this comment get traction.

Edited by lyinggod

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3 minutes ago, Dragonshadow said:

A large number of posts back, I mentioned that every time I see there's been an update to this thread, I hold my breath and open it in the hope that there will be actual news about the release of Genesys.  Any chance we can steer the focus of the conversation back to the main topic?

Whaaaat? Pffffft! No? :P

(Yeah, that’d be super to get news on the release date) 

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24 minutes ago, lyinggod said:

Its not random people who show up to play once but the occasional person looking for a new group. We don't ask for proof but simply (diplomatically) express our stance on the subject. This was actually mentioned in a previous post to the one you quoted.

 

We are aware that a fair number of PDFs don't have embedded names and therefore we are not draconian about our position on legal PDFs. We present it more as an expectation and then drop the subject. Its not something that has become an issue after someone has joined our group and, no, we don't make them verify ownership via the purchase que on DriveThru or via embedded name.

This subject has gotten a lot more traction then I thought it would when all I was trying to say, perhaps poorly, was that my group discouraged piracy. :o

 

In America, we have a term for this. Its called Socialism. Stealing in the name of Socialism is OK went this term is used to justify one's actions. This not a correct definition of Socialism but simply a redefining of the term (unfortunately). 
This is me venting, please don't let this comment get traction.

I respect that your group has a unified stance against piracy. That’s assuming it’s PDF piracy because swashbuckling piracy with pirates, parrots and booty is awesome and should be encouraged at every table. 

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26 minutes ago, Alderaan Crumbs said:

I respect that your group has a unified stance against piracy. That’s assuming it’s PDF piracy because swashbuckling piracy with pirates, parrots and booty is awesome and should be encouraged at every table. 

This is a great idea. I will recommend to our group the acceptance of piracy for those in who attend, every session, in full regalia including the parrot (and perhaps an authentic peg-leg).

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