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clanofwolves

So the Silencer?

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I think that it's possible we'll see a good combination (after more card reveals) for the Tie Silencer that puts it at a Tier 1-1.5 ship, but it's more likely Kylo will be Tier 2.  In other words, I think he's good and able to win smaller tournaments but a longer shot to win big ones, 15-20 in the meta analyzer, right about where Poe is,  and I think a very good comparison.

Here's why:   There are just a handful of small base ships that do well and cost in the 40-50 point range, right about where most Kylo builds will end up.   Miranda, Nym, Corran Horn, and to a lesser extent,Poe and Whisper.    All of these ships are very maneuverable, a couple have regen, and all but one (Poe) have more/and or better damage options than a basic three attack dice via abilities, turrets, bombs, and/or munitions. 

Kylo's bringing maneuverability and that's really all in a meta that has moved pretty far beyond that as being a strong element in and of itself.  That means that any list that does it better or doesn't care is going to be able to deal with him.  His pilot ability can be crippling but it's far less reliable on this platform and against the ships you really want to hit with it (usually higher PS).  If you get it on the ship you want, you still need to get the crit, which can only come reliably from building something else into your list (palp, Vader pilot, etc..)

Again, maybe there will be some combination that opens up something for him or the meta shifts to where PS 9 is valuable again but I don't see him breaking into the top tier competitive meta as is and certainly don't agree that he's going to be dominating the meta.

Edited by AlexW

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8 hours ago, Biophysical said:

You don't know what you're talking about.  You might be right if the Silencer didn't have a tech and system slot on top of what the Protectorate has.  It does, however, and that changes things immensely.

Because that tech + system slot compensate for the pilot ability... Kylo's ability + tech + system is still inferior to Fenn's ability. Also he might not have those 2 slots but he has access to mindlink wich basically gives him a PTL without the stress and almost garantee him a focus every round no matter what he does (blocked, stressed, overlapped obstacle... no problem).

It's true the Silencer has access to those upgrades but it cost points to add them. If you want to include them, you have to add the points to the ship's cost, which make the difference between the 2 even more ridiculous.

Lastly there are ways to disagree with someone without being disrespectful. "you don't know what youre talking about" is not an argument and does not add anything meaningful to your post outside of showing a propensity for rudeness...

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1 hour ago, Whippoorwills said:

Yes, semi predator and semi counter measures for 2 points.

How can that not be worth it?

Because its going on an already expensive ship, and as you say, its only a semi predator... ad the rest of the card is green dice reliant, so = void ;)!

Edited by Dwing

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2 minutes ago, Dwing said:

Because its going on an already expensive ship, and as you say, its only a semi predator... ad the rest og the card is green dice reliant, so = void ;)!

I disagree. I think Kylo will be the new wingmate to RAC instead of Whisper/Vader. With the EU on RAC it'll be quite easy to have him out of arc for the title to proc.

And re-rolling all green dice on a bad roll with say focus and/or palp might be a life saver.

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34 minutes ago, Dwing said:

You guys think the title is worth it?

The title is was designed with munitions in mind. The Silencer gets a second chance against 4-5 dice attacks, because if it whiffs, it dies. 
It's probably going to be a real thinker to decide if you put it on your list. I'm leaning towards yes, because if you're playing the Silencer you're already in a tough place and won't have to worry about points - cause there will be no room in your list for a third ship. Might as well put as many into Kylo as possible in case he's your end-game. 

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@Mward1984

I occasionally run Kylo Ren crew on Whisper with Vader and Omega Ace. I think  the target priority deterrent of shoot me and get a condition is not something to shake a stick at. With PTL it would be nice to have the Silencer ability as an action but then you lose the rebel captive style mental games. 

It makes Kylo a weird "closing" act and when paired with Rebel Captive RAC and Palp it presents some tough choices.  

Basically if your opponent isnt shooting at Kylo at all during a game you dont need to be dishing out Dmgd Cockpit or Blinded as much. Half the time RAC Kylo players hold Whisper back from engaging until after RAC has pushed a PS0 through on his own. RAC and Vader pair differently but Vader dies so quick that list is sorta rough to begin with.

With the Kylo Silencer you want to...just keep RAC out of your opponents Arc, and be aggressive with Kylo and "dare" them to shoot him. 

What are they going to do? Not shoot Kylo on Round 2 and allow him free shots?

Or other way around RAC can soak up dmg while Kylo gets "free" shots. Then when RAC is dead and your opponents list is burning they have to deal with PTL Kylo and a decent chance at crits with all the near constant Target Locks and Rerolls he will have access to.

Edited by Boom Owl

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37 minutes ago, Dwing said:

You guys think the title is worth it?

Yup. It's probably worth it for the re-roll alone and the one-use countermeasures is nifty. You're going to be trying to take on enemies one-on-one anyway.

40 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Fair. 
I don't agree that they have efficient ways of throwing tokens around but sure..

I think the PtL version beats the VI version in a one-to-one, and I also think the PtL version is better suited to avoid bombs. I say this point out that Nym ain't going anywhere and anything under PS 10 without double repositioning is going to feel his wrath. I'm in wait-and-see mode on this one, but I'm very pessimistic about it. Imperial once again get the balanced ship(s).

P.S. everyone should be happy that Vader is back in the meta -- he's playing for the worse of the teams, but he's back. 

Well, you have Systems Officer, Fleet Officer, OpSpec, General Hux, coordinate on the Upsilon and (not a token but still) Palp. There are options. And you have tech slot too. 

I agree PTL will probably be better. Or experimental interface and an action ept such as the new evade action. 

14 minutes ago, Whippoorwills said:

I disagree. I think Kylo will be the new wingmate to RAC instead of Whisper/Vader. With the EU on RAC it'll be quite easy to have him out of arc for the title to proc.

And re-rolling all green dice on a bad roll with say focus and/or palp might be a life saver.

Yeah, I can see this. Play cagey with Kylo and try and keep him alive and RAC murder-death the enemy squad so that hopefully Kylo can take on one enemy one-on-one. That would really benefit this ships style I think, particularly the title.

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10 hours ago, BVRCH said:

Why do so many people think he's over-costed? He's basically an Imperial Poe. Poe doesn't have a turret, and only has 6hp. 33pts vs 35pts = 2pts for a systems slot and an extra agility.  Seems pretty fair to me.

One has regen, the other has not. 
Or one works basically for free with intensity every turn, the other does not.

The fire-control system is in this special case not comparable to the astromech slot, but the silencer is on top more expensive instead of cheaper. 

Now the extra agility is fine, but Poe basically rolls each turn two evades thanks to his pilot ability and autothrusters, meanwhile Kylo's 3 Agility dice are literally the same, unless you spend your focus token, meaning you don't have it for offense. Meanwhile Poe's ability has you covered here and you don't need to spend that token, meaning you have it still for your offense AND either your regen or buying intensity. 

So call me sceptical, the only great thing is that Kylo's ability is really not bad to mess with your target priorities, meanwhile Poe is build around the idea of a few upgrades and got cheap upgrades build around him on top as buffs (Intensity and Prime Thrusters). Now there might be some golden hidden tech upgrade with synergies perfectly with the Silencer, but from the looks of it right now. The striker is not in the best position. 

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33 minutes ago, The Inquisitor said:

Well, you have Systems Officer, Fleet Officer, OpSpec, General Hux, coordinate on the Upsilon and (not a token but still) Palp. There are options. And you have tech slot too. 

I agree PTL will probably be better. Or experimental interface and an action ept such as the new evade action. 

Hux, Systems and Fleet are not compatible with the Silencer unless you run Dormitz Major Striden, and then that's your list and I think you lose most match-ups.
It always comes back to the cost of the Silencer.. You're not going to fit enough into your list to compete with a 45-point Kylo. The only other ship that is more than 40 points in competitive Imperial lists is RAC - and that's not a fair comparison. The points just don't work well.. Hopefully I'm wrong. 

 

Edited by Rinzler in a Tie

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Supreme Kylo

With this you can use Major Stridan for range 1-3 of coordinate and systems officer. Turn goes like this, potentially, Major Stridan uses Adv Sensors if necessary (bump or obstacle) to Coordinate Kylo an action (focus) and does a green maneuver for a TL to Kylo. Kylo activates and uses Adv sensors for PTL boost/barrel roll into a green maneuver to clear stress. All actions on Kylo done before he even moves and uses a green to clear the stress from PTL. Might not be the best, but sounds fun. Wampa is a good cheap partner to Kylo's condition and being at PS4 with Stridan allows to choose activation order. 

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1 minute ago, RStan said:

Supreme Kylo

With this you can use Major Stridan for range 1-3 of coordinate and systems officer. Turn goes like this, potentially, Major Stridan uses Adv Sensors if necessary (bump or obstacle) to Coordinate Kylo an action (focus) and does a green maneuver for a TL to Kylo. Kylo activates and uses Adv sensors for PTL boost/barrel roll into a green maneuver to clear stress. All actions on Kylo done before he even moves and uses a green to clear the stress from PTL. Might not be the best, but sounds fun. Wampa is a good cheap partner to Kylo's condition and being at PS4 with Stridan allows to choose activation order. 

But... what are you actually doing?

Live footage of Kylo Ren vs Dengar!

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15 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

The only sensible partner for a ~45pt Kylo seems to be RAC because he brings the crits you need.  But it'll have to be a cheaper RAC than we usually see, and if you strip VI/Engine off then the opponent will just burn RAC down while Kylo swoops about doing nothing much with his 3 red dice.

I think its important to think of the Kylo silencer in the context of the other ship we dont have yet...the gunboat.

At least a lower PS guidance chips gunboat and Cruise Vader should fit in the same list with PTL/AS Kylo. If the gunboat is viable below PS7 that could be a really dangerous combo, even without Palp on the table.

Of course the PS7 Silencer will be a potential game changer with VI if its pilot ability has anything to do with action economy. Even if it doesnt FCS makes up that ground. So depending on cost we may see that silencer fitting into a lot of lists.

This is obviously a rough sketch below but there are upgrade and pilot cards we dont know yet and combos we cant really even consider yet. 

Major Vynder — Alpha-class Star Wing 26
Veteran Instincts 1
Cruise Missiles 3
Guidance Chips 0
Ship Total: 30
   
Darth Vader — TIE Advanced 29
Adaptability 0
Advanced Targeting Computer 1
TIE/x1 0
Ship Total: 30
   
Kylo Ren (TIE Silencer) — TIE Silencer 35
Calculation 1
Fire-Control System 2
First Order Vanguard 2
Ship Total: 40
   
Edited by Boom Owl

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You realise that looks like a completely terrible squad, right?

And the cards & combos you say you don't know yet and can't consider yet won't matter because you won't have any points to spend on them!

Bring Kylo in under 40pts and you get a squad.  39pts Kylo, 26pts OLeader, 35pts Vader/QD.  Push Kylo into the mid-40s and it starts to fall apart.

Kylo, O.Leader, Inquisitor.  That might be your best bet with a 43pt Kylo, though you've no way to force the crits.

Edited by Stay On The Leader

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10 hours ago, BVRCH said:

Why do so many people think he's over-costed? He's basically an Imperial Poe. Poe doesn't have a turret, and only has 6hp. 33pts vs 35pts = 2pts for a systems slot and an extra agility.  Seems pretty fair to me. I know the old astro vs systems argument, and I know he can't regen but Kylo will naturally be harder to hit, and his ability acts as a deterrent at that PS. My money is on it having an even better dial than a T-70, but not a 4 bank..

 

Well before anything else... unless i'm mistaken Poe has never won a major tournament and is at most semi competitive. Imperials are in need of a ship that can compete with the likes of Dengar, Miranda, Nym, Asajj, Lowrisk, Biggs, Dash, etc in term of power lvl to bring them back in the meta (and maybe justify why they had to nerf Palp?). Even if Kylo was as good as Poe, that would still not be enough.

But that's not the case for many reasons:

- Poe has a much better pilot ability. I do not think i need to explain why...

- The title allows him to get rid of TL which is a big thing with all the missiles/torps running around and other abilities relying on TL (Omega Leader... :-) 

- He has access to R2, R5P9 or BB8. Thats better than anything a sensor upgrade can provide at the moment. And that's the #1 reason why hes superior Kylo. With BB8 he basically has pre maneuver barrel roll + focus or evade + another action every round for no stress. With R5P9 he uses the focus he generally does not have to spend on atck/defense to regen 1 shield/turn without the need for a green maneuver. R2D2 is R2D2.

- He is 3 pts cheaper

- He has access to better partners.

10 hours ago, BVRCH said:

I agree, I think his ability is much more suited to the higher PS, with autothrusters, tokens etc he has more choice as to who gains the condition. The upsilon takes damage almost every time its hit, so the choice is in the opponents hands with Upsilon Kylo. To add to what @PhantomFO said; at PS9, if higher PS opponents choose to hit him and gain ISYTDS, then you can have your lower PS squad mates hit and trigger the crit in the same round.

There is 2 major problems with the ability. First it requires to take a hit on a ship that does not want to get hit. Second it's not useful on the round it applies. The reason why the crew version is good is because it allows to apply the effect rapidly. Because it's mounted on a high ps pilot (RAC) you can use the action, trigger it with a crit and prevent your opponent from shooting you back. You can also shut down a high ps pilot almost from the beginning of the game which is a big deal in the current meta. At ps0 Nym is much less of a threat. Same for all other aces.

The pilot ability is slow to apply and unreliable/unpredictable which is a big deal on such an expansive ship. At that price you need an amazing pilot ability for a ship to be competitive.

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@Stay On The Leader

Yes, i just threw it up there to show that Kylo might fit with the gunboat depending on the lower ps pilot costs and the other upgrades or titles we havent seen yet. Obviously vynder would have to get swapped out for his lower cost equivalent there. 

Either way RAC or Palp Shuttle seem like the obvious choices now but who can say how the gunboat alters that.

Edited by Boom Owl

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QHY0eLu.png

Both ships have PTL, Autothrusters, 3 green dice, and an additional bit of action economy (FCS vs free Evade).  You're paying 11 points for +2 hull (immediately negated by the Inquisitor's Evade tokens), +1 Pilot Skill, +1 red dice at R1.

Again: when you load up Kylo Ren as an ace you get a good ship, nobody is arguing with that.  But you paid way too much for it, especially considering how bad it is at defending itself.

 

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12 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Well before anything else... unless i'm mistaken Poe has never won a major tournament and is at most semi competitive. 

Well, not if you don't take World's or System Opens into account!  That said, it's true that he's not quite at that level anymore which is why I think he's a very good comparison for Kylo.  His ability is a lot more consistent, if less impactful and he has regen which, when combined with his ability probably put him on a similar level of durability.  He can be built to be more maneuverable but that build hasn't won anything big that I can recall.    Even with the regen he's still fallen to around Tier 2 at this point.

Edited by AlexW

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The big big difference is Poe tries to keep himself on the table - both with his pilot ability and regen, and these days with Comm Relay/Intensity as well.  The more you invest points in something the more you need it to be 1) keeping itself alive, or 2) compressing it's damage output into the early game so it doesn't matter than it dies.  Kylo does neither.

Soontir turtled up to stay on the table, Miranda regenerates to stay on the table, Corran regenerates to stay on the table, Poe Dameron regenerates to stay on the table, Norra regenerates to stay on the table, Whisper cloaks and double-focuses to stay on the table.  Kylo sits there and takes it, and if he takes it for a couple of turns he's going to die.

No evade.  No regen.  One focus token his best defense.  Dead meat.

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