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clanofwolves

So the Silencer?

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3 hours ago, Mward1984 said:

At that price point it's got to have SOMETHING crazy in it's dial. There's no other way that price makes sense.

As for the PS7 guy? What text we see syncs up almost perfectly with the text of Trick Shot, except with a 2 dice bonus over a 1 dice bonus. Which I'll be honest I think is kind of cute and if it gets an EPT I could see a few really mean combo's you could pull off with that.

Thing is, whilst Kylo is PS9 and can PTL Arc Dodge, the rest of them can't, so either the Silencer isn't supposed to be an arc dodger, or we have another Corran Horn situation where the only ship that works as intended is the most expensive one.

And let's not beat around the bush, to make Kylo Ren good is going to cost a LOT of points. 35 base, Adv. Sensors, Title, PTL, Autothrusters clocks in at 45. That's a HUGE amount of points for something that doesn't have a turret and only 6HP, and no Missile slot either. Plus Kylo's ability doesn't really mesh all that well with his high PS or the fact that the Silencer is built to NEVER get hit.

 

So, if the other Silencers aren't really meant to be Arc Dodgers... what ARE they meant to be?

Why do so many people think he's over-costed? He's basically an Imperial Poe. Poe doesn't have a turret, and only has 6hp. 33pts vs 35pts = 2pts for a systems slot and an extra agility.  Seems pretty fair to me. I know the old astro vs systems argument, and I know he can't regen but Kylo will naturally be harder to hit, and his ability acts as a deterrent at that PS. My money is on it having an even better dial than a T-70, but not a 4 bank..

3 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

Yeah, but his pilot ability actually works here. It's a terrible pilot ability on an Upsilon, because he's PS6 with 1 agility and can't turn around easily. It's too easy for other PS6+ ships to ping-pong the condition around so that it's never within his firing arc. It's much harder to do that against a nimble PS9+ ship with 3 agility and Autothrusters.

I agree, I think his ability is much more suited to the higher PS, with autothrusters, tokens etc he has more choice as to who gains the condition. The upsilon takes damage almost every time its hit, so the choice is in the opponents hands with Upsilon Kylo. To add to what @PhantomFO said; at PS9, if higher PS opponents choose to hit him and gain ISYTDS, then you can have your lower PS squad mates hit and trigger the crit in the same round. 

He can be built out to around 43-46pts to be a really strong ship with your choice of PTL/intensity, Adv. Sensors/FCS, Comm Relay/Primed Thrusters and run a Tie/D or Backdraft, or RAC/Palp to trigger his ability fairly consistently.

Edited by BVRCH

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19 minutes ago, BVRCH said:

Why do so many people think he's over-costed? He's basically an Imperial Poe. Poe doesn't have a turret, and only has 6hp. 33pts vs 35pts = 2pts for a systems slot and an extra agility.  Seems pretty fair to me. I know the old astro vs systems argument, and I know he can't regen but Kylo will naturally be harder to hit, and his ability acts as a deterrent at that PS. My money is on it having an even better dial than a T-70, but not a 4 bank..

I agree, I think his ability is much more suited to the higher PS, with autothrusters, tokens etc he has more choice as to who gains the condition. The upsilon takes damage almost every time its hit, so the choice is in the opponents hands with Upsilon Kylo. To add to what @PhantomFO said; at PS9, if higher PS opponents choose to hit him and gain ISYTDS, then you can have your lower PS squad mates hit and trigger the crit in the same round. 

He can be built out to around 43-46pts to be a really strong ship with your choice of PTL/intensity, Adv. Sensors/FCS, Comm Relay/Primed Thrusters and run a Mangler Tie/D or Backdraft, or RAC/Palp to trigger his ability fairly consistently.

Mangler tie/d is a negative ghost rider. :wacko:

expertise tractor tie/d might work.

 

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51 minutes ago, Thormind said:

 

Another comparison? Kylo is 7 more pts than Fenn for basically 2 extra shield and again an amazingly worst ability. He could be a generic ps9 and there wouldnt be much difference.

You don't know what you're talking about.  You might be right if the Silencer didn't have a tech and system slot on top of what the Protectorate has.  It does, however, and that changes things immensely.

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Im pretty sure stuff like this isnt going to be all that bad against current 2 ship meta lists. But by then bombs will be droppable from anywhere and biggs will have coordinate so.....yea ok sky is falling.

Kylo Ren (TIE Silencer) — TIE Silencer 35
A Score to Settle 0
Fire-Control System 2
First Order Vanguard 2
Ship Total: 39
   
Rear Admiral Chiraneau — VT-49 Decimator 46
Adaptability 0
Emperor Palpatine 8
Rebel Captive 3
Engine Upgrade 4
Ship Total: 61
   

Or better Kylo version

Kylo Ren (TIE Silencer) — TIE Silencer 35
Push the Limit 3
Advanced Sensors 3
First Order Vanguard 2
Ship Total: 43
   
Captain Oicunn — VT-49 Decimator 42
Adaptability 0
Emperor Palpatine 8
Rebel Captive 3
Engine Upgrade 4
Ship Total: 57
 
Edited by Boom Owl

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9 hours ago, BVRCH said:

Why do so many people think he's over-costed? He's basically an Imperial Poe.

With a much worse pilot ability and no access to regen.  And it's not like Poe is top notch.

There's a lot of people who like Kylo who fundamentally overvalue arc-dodging.  Arc-dodging isn't worth much and it hasn't been for a long time.  Soontir wasn't powerful because he arc-dodged, he was powerful because when arc-dodging didn't work he could also say "Focus, Focus, Evade, Palp, Autothrusters, come at me bro".  There's no double focus, there's no Evade, there's probably no Palp... when arc-dodging fails Kylo gets hurt, and if it happens twice he dies.

I like Kylo if you can keep his cost under 40pts.  Invest any more and he's both too attractive a points target and sucks too much oxygen from the rest of your list.

Edited by Stay On The Leader

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6 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

With a much worse pilot ability and no access to regen.  And it's not like Poe is top notch.

There's a lot of people who like Kylo who fundamentally overvalue arc-dodging.  Arc-dodging isn't worth much and it hasn't been for a long time.  Soontir wasn't powerful because he arc-dodged, he was powerful because when arc-dodging didn't work he could also sayo said "Focus, Focus, Evade, Palp, Autothrusters, come at me bro".  There's no double focus, there's no Evade, there's probably no Palp... when arc-dodging fails Kylo gets hurt, and if it happens twice he dies.

I like Kylo if you can keep his cost under 40pts.  Invest any more and he's both too attractive a points target and sucks too much oxygen from the rest of your list.

 

This. Even if he's worth every point, which he fundamentally ISN'T. 40-45 points is objectively a huge wack of points from your list. You are effectively putting half of your points into an archetype that the Meta largely killed off in Wave 8 and put the nail in the coffin of when they overnerfed Palps. It's EXACTLY the same problem that the Defenders and the Starviper had, it simply costs too many points to fit into a decent list.

if you want Kylo Ren, take his crew card on RAC instead. It is unquestionably a better way to put his condition on things because it's proactive instead of passive. YOU the Imperial Player get to choose where that condition goes, AND you can do it before the start of the combat round. It is 100% better than a passive effect that will only go off when you are hit. Which you don't want to be, because you are the least HP for Point effecient small base ship FFG have ever made.

People are NOT going to avoid attacking Kylo just because they might get ISYTDS like they did with Rebel Captive, because in these circumstances they could easily have a WHOLE activation phase to either get out of arcs, SLAMM or otherwise turtle up.

You can't run an aces list with Kylo in it, not just because you wont have the points, but more because you need someone at a low PS to try and get an unsaved crit through on things that Kylo might have MIGHT HAVE conditioned.

 

There are some interesting and good cards in this box (Threat Tracker is a literal wildcard here). But the actual ship itself wont be worth it until we get a First Order Veterans box that gives it a -3 Title and the ability to Boost or Barrel roll when it receives an Evade action, and adds an Evade action onto your action bar.

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I do like Kylo Ren with ASTS.  That keeps his cost down, adds the crit for his pilot ability, and encourages people to engage with him and trigger it earlier in the game.

Kylo with ASTS, FCS and Autothrusters in 39pts and fits in nicely with Omega Leader and Quickdraw/Vader.  That's a decent triple aces squad.

Edited by Stay On The Leader

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8 hours ago, Mward1984 said:

Current popular theory is ACTION: Gain Evade Tokens equal to the number of Obstacles within Range 1 of you. To a Maximum of 2 (since the Silencer only comes with 2 Evades)

If right, you could go Youngster +Debris Whatever, 2 Crack/Juke blacks and Quickdraw with Swarm Leader for something really nasty. In general I could see a card like that being a really good engine for Swarm Leader. Another good example would be a pair of Greens with it and Juke backing up something with Swarm Leader. Plus it's a generally decent way of getting Evade tokens on stuff that doesn't normally have Evade access, like the X-Wing, Y-Wing, Starviper etc.

Think of Keyan Farlander with that and Experimental Interface.

If it caught on, it would also encourage people to consider Seismic Torpedoes more. Although with the nerf to Evade token expenditure it wouldn't be as good as it once was.

Nice in theory, but a TIE fighter could just do an evade action instead of a Debris Whatever action; yes, occasionally 2 evade tokens, but it's not that big a deal.

Where it'll be really nice (much like intensity) if anywhere is giving a ship without the evade action a reliable way to generate evade tokens (note that the TIE silencer doesn't have evade!).

It should be nice and Arc-dodgy, and 6 HP is pretty decent. A 3-ship might in theory work - I think you really must have either 3+ ships in a list or 2 ships where one can reliably double-tap, or some other damage mechanic (bombs, mines, etc).

The elite generic (at PS6 surely it must have an EPT) should probably weight in at 30 points - which is.....kind of a touch too expensive to field three and kit them out. It might work with a Silencer supported by a pair of TIE/sf?

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1 minute ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Nice in theory, but a TIE fighter could just do an evade action instead of a Debris Whatever action; yes, occasionally 2 evade tokens, but it's not that big a deal.

Where it'll be really nice (much like intensity) if anywhere is giving a ship without the evade action a reliable way to generate evade tokens (note that the TIE silencer doesn't have evade!).

It might be good on Jan Ors, hiding behind a rock.

Edited by Stay On The Leader

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Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

It might be good on Jan Ors, hiding behind a rock.

It's just an issue that using your elite upgrade to add options to your action bar (daredevil, expert handling, expose) has historically had the problem that it tends to eliminate the best way to give you the action economy you need to exploit them (intensity, push the limit).

Hiding Jan behind a rock is a good idea, for instance; but if you're doing that my first thought is to reach for trick shot...

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6 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Hiding Jan behind a rock is a good idea, for instance; but if you're doing that my first thought is to reach for trick shot...

Speaking about trick shot, if we're right about that second unique, consider the following.

Let's assume a base cost of 33pts (if we're good little boys over christmas, maybe 32!) and let's say there's an EPT there.

Give it Trick Shot and Adv. Sensors.

36pts.

Sure if you wanted some dice mods you could toss in the title for 38, but that's beginning to get just a touch unweildy now.

 

So, ride up to the largest debris field you can (because you HAVE taken 3 of the largest debris fields haven't you?) TL someone on the other side, and enjoy shooting that turn with 6 attack dice.

But wait there's more!

Maybe the debris token doesn't HAVE to be so large? What if it's small enough that NEXT turn (and the turn after that...) you could Adv. Sensor BR and then do a 1turn so that you are now still facing the thing, but facing 90 degrees to the left or right?

You then spend the rest of the game do-si-doing around this obstacle vomiting out 6 attack dice at range three, like some unholy mobile arc of doom (but no dice mods, unless you took the title) and if people want to shoot you, well, you've got 4 dice (possibly an emergency reroll) to play with.

 

For 36-38 points, I reckon that's not too bad, and much easier to put into a list. Assuming we can find the right sort of debris token to work with it.

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To the people comparing this silencer to the regular old interceptor. 
Kylo ren is 7 points more expensive than soontir fel. 
For that you get 1 hull, 2 shields, a systems slot and a techslot. 

I know that the interceptor is in a bad spot atm due to bombs, but isn't 3 health more (where two of them are shields!) a worthy consideration to the threat of bombs? Depending on how the tech-modifications evolve in the next wave, it might be able to ride off the the threat of bombs. 

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15 minutes ago, ModernPenguin said:

To the people comparing this silencer to the regular old interceptor. 
Kylo ren is 7 points more expensive than soontir fel. 
For that you get 1 hull, 2 shields, a systems slot and a techslot. 

I know that the interceptor is in a bad spot atm due to bombs, but isn't 3 health more (where two of them are shields!) a worthy consideration to the threat of bombs? Depending on how the tech-modifications evolve in the next wave, it might be able to ride off the the threat of bombs. 

Slots don't have a value in and of themselves, though worth noting you also lose a Mod slot (Royal Guard title) .

7pts buys you 3 more hull but you lose a Focus token from his pilot ability that could easily be worth a couple of points of hull, and will frequently be worth much more.

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30 minutes ago, Mward1984 said:

Speaking about trick shot, if we're right about that second unique, consider the following.

Let's assume a base cost of 33pts (if we're good little boys over christmas, maybe 32!) and let's say there's an EPT there.

Give it Trick Shot and Adv. Sensors.

36pts.

Sure if you wanted some dice mods you could toss in the title for 38, but that's beginning to get just a touch unweildy now.

 

So, ride up to the largest debris field you can (because you HAVE taken 3 of the largest debris fields haven't you?) TL someone on the other side, and enjoy shooting that turn with 6 attack dice.

But wait there's more!

Maybe the debris token doesn't HAVE to be so large? What if it's small enough that NEXT turn (and the turn after that...) you could Adv. Sensor BR and then do a 1turn so that you are now still facing the thing, but facing 90 degrees to the left or right?

You then spend the rest of the game do-si-doing around this obstacle vomiting out 6 attack dice at range three, like some unholy mobile arc of doom (but no dice mods, unless you took the title) and if people want to shoot you, well, you've got 4 dice (possibly an emergency reroll) to play with.

 

For 36-38 points, I reckon that's not too bad, and much easier to put into a list. Assuming we can find the right sort of debris token to work with it.

If you're going to do that, My brain says Trick Shot, Collision Detector, Primed Thrusters, First Order Vanguard - that gives you dice modifiers from the title and the ability to boost and barrel roll around in debris with virtually no downside. If his ability is 2 extra attack dice for an obstructed shot then a 6 -dice attack would be brutal (I suspect it might be 'reroll 2 attack dice', though).

At 36 points, that's pretty nice in a debris-laden board.

Alternatively, don't forget the option of an Upsilon Shuttle with a Tactical Jammer; provide your own obstruction.

 

His big problem as an 'ace' is in the token-stacking department.

Poe Dameron's current favourite incarnation that I see is:

  • Poe Dameron (PS9) - Black One, Intensity, BB-8, Primed Thrusters, Autothrusters

That's 41 points, and rolls around with Evade, [Partial] Focus, Autothrusters and the ability to shed Target Locks more or less at will. Firepower is only okay (3 dice with a [Partial] focus), but then aces have always been mobility first, defence second, attack third.

 

Kylo lacks an equally obvious elite talent:

  • Push The Limit is fine, but without the ability to evade....what? You're not going to need a boost and barrel roll every turn, and whilst focus/target locked attacks are nice, they tend to want a tougher platform. Not to mention that if you want 'free' locks, you could have equipped Fire Control System, and in a one-on-one duel the First Order Vanguard title is giving you attack rerolls anyway so you don't really need target locks in the first place.
  • Predator seems a poor choice for the same reason.
  • Intensity.....Poe is amazing because he can get several uses out of a focus token without ever spending it. Kylo not so much. Paired with a Comm Relay you can give him a pseudo-evade-action, but that is an expensive way of doing it (5 points, Elite and Tech slots, and the 2 turns' actions every time you want to 'charge' the comm relay)
  • Veteran Instincts is doubling down on being an arc dodger. Great if your opponent can be outmanoeuvred. Not so great if it's a ludicrously over-modified, double tapping turret.
  • Daredevil is the same.
  • Swarm Leader - kind of demands at least a 30 point investment in a pair of cheap fighters to accompany you and feed evades, and I'm not convinced this is a tough enough platform to support that kind of firepower. Still, it might be worth a look; Kylo plus a mob of TIE/fo aces might work.
  • Wired - wired strikes me as a budget EPT designed to help a cheap ship deal with being stressed. A 40+ point ship can't really afford to cut corners in what's arguably the most powerful upgrade slot.
  • A Score To Settle - Paired with Kylo's ability, that's got potential. [Partial] Focus stacks with [Partial] reroll from the title, it leaves your action free to maneuver or defend, and the free critical pairs well with I'll show you the dark side to PS0 or prevent attacks. It doesn't pair well with Sensor Jammer, though, which seems like the best 'make me more survivable' system upgrade.  It is free, of course.
  • Expertise might be nice. Combined with First Order Vanguard, that's all the attack mods you need taken care of - meaning you can focus the rest of your upgrades and actions on not dying.
  • Lone Wolf is the same - if you can make it a one-on-one fight, then you now have 2 attack rerolls and one defence reroll; that's a fairly good deal for 4 points.

 

  • Kylo Ren - First Order Vanguard, Expertise, Sensor Jammer, Sensor Clusters, Autothrusters

Is going to be a bugger to hit, but he's 49 points - meaning you're much more restricted in your options for support ships; a pair of TIE/fo aces or equivalent and you're pretty much done:

  • Omega Leader - A Score To Settle, Comms Relay
  • Omega Ace - Opportunist, Enhanced Optics (assuming they cost 3 points)

 

 

 

 

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Slots don't have a value in and of themselves, though worth noting you also lose a Mod slot (Royal Guard title) .

7pts buys you 3 more hull but you lose a Focus token from his pilot ability that could easily be worth a couple of points of hull, and will frequently be worth much more.

True they don't. But they add customization, which makes the ship more likely to survive the ever shifting meta.
On the base level, advance sensors makes the ship unblockable, and takes apart a major part of any ace's weakness, blocking. 

While I do agree that soontir's ability is more frequently used, but the ability to potentially draw blinded pilot on your enemies (in a RAC build I could easily see it happen) has been proven to be a better defensive strategy than a focus token. 

If you are frequently being murdered by blocks or bombs, then your ability is frequently useless. 
I'm not saying that the silencer is the next big thing, i'm just saying it does not look dead in the water! 

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You definitely get a lot of ship with the Silencer.  You also spend a lot of points.  The Silencer's biggest problem is that there's already some great ships that do a lot of what it does for quite a bit less.  And those great ships aren't good enough right now either.

And it needs to be double-underlined that the pilot ability is genuinely a bit ****.  Not Fel's Wrath ****, but **** nonetheless.

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8 minutes ago, ModernPenguin said:

While I do agree that soontir's ability is more frequently used, but the ability to potentially draw blinded pilot on your enemies (in a RAC build I could easily see it happen) has been proven to be a better defensive strategy than a focus token. 

Indeed. It's why I think A Score To Settle might be worth a look, as it's about the only way I can see to make his ability "self-contained". (Marksmanship is just too expensive and calculation still eats into your action economy).

In that case I guess advanced sensors is probably the best bet for the systems slot - letting you ignore blocks and/or get focus when Segnor's Looping or K-turning (if they're not white). Fire Control is nice but kind of makes First Order Vanguard feel a bit redundant.

Sensor Clusters might be nice for a tech slot - it doesn't increase your maximum possible evades like an evade token, but being able to turn 2 blanks to evades should take the sting out of most hits. Alternatively, enhanced optics (if it's cheap) - once you've got rerolls from First Order Vanguard, offensive focus from A Score To Settle and defensive focus from Enhanced Optics, you can invest your action entirely in repositioning, making the ship damnably fast on its feet, especially with advanced sensors.

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As an aside and a bit of a laugh, I overhead two XWM players at a LGS yesterday that were joking that the ships name came from the designers handicapping it. One stated, "when you listen for the howl of it's engines in tournaments, all you will hear is silence." Haha! . Sadly for FFG, although both were looking forward to the ship, neither pre-ordered one yesterday and stated they probably wouldn't purchase one. Still no imperial love expressed at that store; they have a load of Imperial stock, multiples of every Imp variant.

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It may not be over costed objectively, but it's pretty much unplayable because of its cost. Imperials cannot afford anything close to 40 points that's not laden with munitions or called RAC.

And PS 9 ain't **** anymore. None of his tricks will save him from Nym's bombs, or Dengar and his double tap - the only thing this may outlast is TLTs and that's thanks to the hull/shields they gave it. 

3-dice and no munitions or gimmicks puts this thing to rest. Just can't keep up with the whipper-snappers of Scum or the undying Rebels. 

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Sensors slow roll will make bombs far easier to avoid provided nonturn speed 1 manuever s

Issue is as everyone pointed out, cost per amount of dice/mods gained 

**** like Dengar or scouts are busted as **** because they severely underpay for the amount of his/crits they rather effortlessly generate 

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The problem in games that measure power of units in points is that it usually doesn't scale consistently. There is a zone where scaling works OKis but when you get to its edges things become iffy.
 

Edited by Hannes Solo

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37 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

And PS 9 ain't **** anymore. 

So you give Kylo VI. With advanced sensors and title, that's not awful although he'd miss PTL. Not like Imperials don't have lots of ways of throwing tokens or extra actions around. 

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Just now, The Inquisitor said:

So you give Kylo VI. With advanced sensors and title, that's not awful although he'd miss PTL. Not like Imperials don't have lots of ways of throwing tokens or extra actions around. 

Fair. 
I don't agree that they have efficient ways of throwing tokens around but sure..

I think the PtL version beats the VI version in a one-to-one, and I also think the PtL version is better suited to avoid bombs. I say this point out that Nym ain't going anywhere and anything under PS 10 without double repositioning is going to feel his wrath. I'm in wait-and-see mode on this one, but I'm very pessimistic about it. Imperial once again get the balanced ship(s).

P.S. everyone should be happy that Vader is back in the meta -- he's playing for the worse of the teams, but he's back. 

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