viktr

Maul and Last Resort

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Tricky. Abilities are usually resolved fully when they are triggered unless there is an explicit lingering effect.

So, if you deplete Last Resort when Maul has suffered damage equal to his health but has not resolved an activation, the ability does nothing, because Maul is not actually defeated.

It's a little open whether "has suffered damage equal to health" is a singular trigger or can it also be a "state". In this case considering the trigger to exist until Maul is defeated makes sense. (The timing clarification "before that figure is defeated" allows that Last Resort is depleted immediately before Maul gets defeated.)

It seems that you can wait until Maul has resolved an activation, then deplete Last Resort before Maul is defeated, and get its effect.

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that is interesting. 

the conditions look to be technically true any time while he is being sustained by rage. He will have suffered damage equal to his health and will not have been defeated. 

I would say RAW that he might even be able to use it during his last activation. ex: use last resort, move, attack. Then he's defeated. Thoughts?

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35 minutes ago, Fightwookies said:

I would think if you had to use it immediately before becoming defeated it would say so.  Such as:"Use immediately before that figure is defeated."

Or similar to Terminal Protocol, it could have specified that the figure is defeated once the ability resolves.

 

Until now, has there been anything that allows a figure to remain not-defeated? In other words, at the time of writing Last Resort, there was no need to say so. I would think the trigger is suffering damage equal to health. If you chose not to use Last Resort at that time, you've missed your window of opportunity, as Maul will not have just suffered damage equal to health, to satisfy the "when" trigger of the card.

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Actually, that leads us to: It also doesn't say "when you suffer damage and now have suffered damage equal to health". Suffering damage is an event, having suffered damage is a state.

Suffering damage equal to health means you have suffered 0 damage, and in one go suffer damage equal to your Health. It will very rarely happen. And if a figure has suffered any damage, it can no longer suffer damage equal to its health. Some of these mix-ups between suffer and have suffered were fixed from the core in the previous two FAQ's.

 

Edited by a1bert

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2 hours ago, Fightwookies said:

that is interesting. 

the conditions look to be technically true any time while he is being sustained by rage. He will have suffered damage equal to his health and will not have been defeated. 

I would say RAW that he might even be able to use it during his last activation. ex: use last resort, move, attack. Then he's defeated. Thoughts?

I think the same.

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RAW, there's nothing to limit it to his activation either. If an enemy figure moves into an adjacent space, the trigger may still be tecnically valid.

If they don't intend for these shenanigans to be valid, i'd assume we'll see an errata for Last Resort in the near future.

Edited by Fightwookies

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It has been established that there is an implicit immediately in all abilities that use before or after. So, the effect of Last Resort will only happen immediately before the figure is defeated. In my opinion, if the figure isn't defeated when you deplete Last Resort, you either do not get the effect or the mission is dead-locked waiting for you to end resolving Last Resort.

I don't think we need errata. Just a ruling about how to interpret Last Resort is required.

Edited by a1bert

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Would the trigger for the deplete be;

when Maul suffered damage equal to his health.

and then the resolution would not trigger until before he is defeated at the end of his activation?

no need to complicate things further than doing literally what the card says.

the card doesnt specify that the defeat happens immediately after the damage being dealt. We only infer that because it's always been the case prior to Maul being designed.

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On 16/09/2017 at 5:55 PM, a1bert said:

You are mixing suffered and has suffered there.

(I don't think FFG wants to introduce a new concept of having two triggers for one ability, or a different way of making delayed effects.)

 

I don't think I am, at least not intentionally with my wording.

the trigger for the Last Resort deplete is "has suffered"

in my head, the example goes like this;

Rancor attacks an inactivated Maul, with 7 health remaining, and does 7 damage. This is the trigger, and Maul "has suffered" damage equal to his health. Deplete Last Resort. But because Maul has not activated he is not yet defeated.

Then, later, when it comes to Mauls activation, the player takes his actions as normal. But at the end of his activation he is then defeated, and the remaining parts of Last Resort now trigger.

edit, also until FFG officially answer it doesn't matter what we think they want. Only what the interpretation of the current rules as presented gives us for anyone who wants to use these cards in a tournament.

Edited by Majushi

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Like in the recent thread about the interaction between Miracle Worker and Parting Shot, you can't put abilities on hold like that. Each ability is resolved fully before you return to the trigger to resolve other abilities with the same trigger. When you run out of abilities with the same trigger, the play continues, but not otherwise.

When you perform abilities, you have to pay their cost (if any), then perform as much of them as you can.

So, if the latter part of the ability (before being defeated) cannot be performed, it isn't performed, and the play continues. If you wait for it to become true, it never can, because the play doesn't continue until you finish resolving the ability.

Only abilities that trigger off of something happening while you resolve an ability can "interrupt" and then you continue resolving the ability.

 

 

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I asked Todd and got his answer today.

"Yes, Last Resort would deplete immediately. It is triggered by having suffered the damage. “Before that figure is defeated” is a timing clarification, not a trigger condition."

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23 minutes ago, viktr said:

I asked Todd and got his answer today.

"Yes, Last Resort would deplete immediately. It is triggered by having suffered the damage. “Before that figure is defeated” is a timing clarification, not a trigger condition."

So...basically Maul gets a borderline no side-effect Last Resort then? Because he cannot be defeated unless he activates

Maul is at 12/12 dmg

Last Resort triggers, Maul goes kaboom
half-alive Maul: I'm sustained by rage! I will not die just yet!

Maul activates

Maul dies

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1 hour ago, ricope said:

So...basically Maul gets a borderline no side-effect Last Resort then? Because he cannot be defeated unless he activates

Maul is at 12/12 dmg

Last Resort triggers, Maul goes kaboom
half-alive Maul: I'm sustained by rage! I will not die just yet!

Maul activates

Maul dies

Yes, it should work like that.

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On 10/14/2017 at 1:59 AM, ricope said:

So...basically Maul gets a borderline no side-effect Last Resort then? Because he cannot be defeated unless he activates

Maul is at 12/12 dmg

Last Resort triggers, Maul goes kaboom
half-alive Maul: I'm sustained by rage! I will not die just yet!

Maul activates

Maul dies

Which is actually the worse interpretation for Maul. He always gets to activate before he dies, whether he has Last Resort or not. If he could activate after suffering damage equal to his health, then move near enemies, then die, triggering Last Resort, that would be more useful. As it is, Last Resort works pretty much the same on him as it does on any other figure.

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4 hours ago, Stompburger said:

Which is actually the worse interpretation for Maul. He always gets to activate before he dies, whether he has Last Resort or not. If he could activate after suffering damage equal to his health, then move near enemies, then die, triggering Last Resort, that would be more useful. As it is, Last Resort works pretty much the same on him as it does on any other figure.

Except that the other figures would not get another activation in addition to the Last Resort damage...

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1 hour ago, Majushi said:

Except that the other figures would not get another activation in addition to the Last Resort damage...

That's true, but he gets that activation  after he's defeated whether you put Last Resort on him or not. Last Resort doesn't change that.

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8 minutes ago, Stompburger said:

That's true, but he gets that activation  after he's defeated whether you put Last Resort on him or not. Last Resort doesn't change that.

Yeah I feel like your "better" interpretation would be too powerful and unpredictable, that would be a literal bomb scrapped onto Maul and a free explosion deep within enemy territory, which is even better than the 3pt cc Grenadier

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34 minutes ago, gran_orco said:

I cannot understand the utility of "Sustained by Rage". If he dies when I resolve his activation, which is the advantage of not dying when he suffers wounds equal to his health if he is going to die?

It's kinda like the hired guns, if he gets killed off, you're still guaranteed an attack, or in his case, a full activation. Not to mention that you might use command cards or other abilities that give him actions before his death. Eg, Jabba, or officers or Palpatine...


This is way better than him getting killed at the start of a round and not getting a chance to activate.  However you want to make the most of it, otherwise if he already had his activation, he'll be dead immediately.

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