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Archlyte

Advantage and Triumph as Momentum

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5 hours ago, Cifer said:

Meh. There are already ways of using advantages to improve future actions. I don't think more are needed, particularly not so extremely reliable ones.

Something like this is how I'd do it.  Make it so that the Triumph isn't "banked," per se, but the effect is delayed until the character chooses to trigger it.

Think of the classic trope: two gunslingers face off.  The hero gets the draw first and fires!  ...and the villain is unharmed.  "You missed!"  He taunts the hero, shooting him callously in the side to wound him as he plays with his prey, taking a few jaunty steps forward.  The hero looks up from his wound, smirking.  "Did I?"  And then, because the villain took those jaunty steps, the falling water tower that was damaged by the heroes' shot lands right on top of him.

That's how I think this'd work.  The player dictates something his character set into motion with his Triumph/advantage, and then can trigger the narrative event at any time later that scene.  The effect is determined at the time it's triggered, but it has to be something that the event could possibly cause.  A Triumph is essentially the same as a Destiny Point in many cases, so gaining the ability to trigger a pre-determined narrative shift on the same scale as a Destiny Point without spending one doesn't seem too overpowered.  But I haven't playtested it, so I'm not entirely sure.

But this does get around the problem of having banked symbols be used for crits and weapon qualities and additional autofire hits and things, because the event has already been determined, only the timing is left open.

Edited by Absol197

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17 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

Something like this is how I'd do it.  Make it so that the Triumph isn't "banked," per se, but the effect is delayed until the character chooses to trigger it.

Think of the classic trope: two gunslingers face off.  The hero gets the draw first and fires!  ...and the villain is unharmed.  "You missed!"  He taunts the hero, shooting him callously in the side to wound him as he plays with his prey, taking a few jaunty steps forward.  The hero looks up from his wound, smirking.  "Did I?"  And then, because the villain took those jaunty steps, the falling water tower that was damaged by the heroes' shot lands right on top of him.

That's how I think this'd work.  The player dictates something his character set into motion with his Triumph/advantage, and then can trigger the narrative event at any time later that scene.  The effect is determined at the time it's triggered, but it has to be something that the event could possibly cause.  A Triumph is essentially the same as a Destiny Point in many cases, so gaining the ability to trigger a pre-determined narrative shift on the same scale as a Destiny Point without spending one doesn't seem too overpowered.  But I haven't playtested it, so I'm not entirely sure.

But this does get around the problem of having banked symbols be used for crits and weapon qualities and additional autofire hits and things, because the event has already been determined, only the timing is left open.

My issue with this, is that what you described, with the shootout, doesn't feel like banked triumphs used later.  It felt like he used them in that same action.  "So I want to use my 3 Triumphs to have the nearby water tower land on him as the damage, not a direct shot.  I rolled 10+ damage total, and just for lulz I want it to be via giant water tower, rather than bullet to face"   GM: "Ok, for 3 triumphs, that sounds like a fun way to do it."

This thread kind of reminds me of a particular topic on the O66, about Despair.  The players rolled a Despair on a slicing check, and then later on, the results were revealed to the players, as a silent alarm was triggered.

The players called foul, saying the Despair should've been resolved then, to which the GM said, and the hosts agreed, that the Despair was triggered then, but the effects were felt later.   

To me, this is the best way to even attempt to do this "banking" thing, though personally I'm strongly against it.

At best, I'd allow players to utilize their Triumphs in ways that the payoff isn't until later, but they still have to use the Triumph then.   Such as using a Triumph to toss a tracking device on an enemy as they are fleeing.   Hours later, they get to actually take advantage of that result, by tracking the enemy they tagged.

Edited by KungFuFerret

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16 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Well it's almost like the Wookiee that is somehow still raging a week after taking an unhealed minor critical injury...

We would never allow that to happen in one of our games. The wookie would be healed or he would have to wait to attain further injury to rage. lol

 

As for storing advantages and triumphs, I can see where that might be fun for your group to fiddle with, but it breaks an already fragile system. You are trying to manipulate mechanics in a system designed to be narrative. That sends up a big red flag right away that you are not focused on the right aspect of the game, but as mentioned a few times, to each their own.

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12 hours ago, Absol197 said:

Something like this is how I'd do it.  Make it so that the Triumph isn't "banked," per se, but the effect is delayed until the character chooses to trigger it.

Think of the classic trope: two gunslingers face off.  The hero gets the draw first and fires!  ...and the villain is unharmed.  "You missed!"  He taunts the hero, shooting him callously in the side to wound him as he plays with his prey, taking a few jaunty steps forward.  The hero looks up from his wound, smirking.  "Did I?"  And then, because the villain took those jaunty steps, the falling water tower that was damaged by the heroes' shot lands right on top of him.

That's how I think this'd work.  The player dictates something his character set into motion with his Triumph/advantage, and then can trigger the narrative event at any time later that scene.  The effect is determined at the time it's triggered, but it has to be something that the event could possibly cause.  A Triumph is essentially the same as a Destiny Point in many cases, so gaining the ability to trigger a pre-determined narrative shift on the same scale as a Destiny Point without spending one doesn't seem too overpowered.  But I haven't playtested it, so I'm not entirely sure.

But this does get around the problem of having banked symbols be used for crits and weapon qualities and additional autofire hits and things, because the event has already been determined, only the timing is left open.

I am going for things like what you described in the gunslinger face off, or the battle where the players decide to gamble on a big attack in round 3 when things are looking desperate and they have taken strain and did not choose to use their immediate advantages in order to have the big effect later. What if one of them gets knocked out of the fight in round 2? If that guy who got knocked out was banking bonuses the party was just dealt a big blow and lost the momentum (or initiative as some military scholars would call it) in the battle. The players would have chosen to take that risk instead of only having the choice to plod along at RAW immediate rolls. IN the end they could get a great big victory, or their desperate plan could fail. With ships I think this could be all the more epic.

 

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12 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

My issue with this, is that what you described, with the shootout, doesn't feel like banked triumphs used later.  It felt like he used them in that same action.  "So I want to use my 3 Triumphs to have the nearby water tower land on him as the damage, not a direct shot.  I rolled 10+ damage total, and just for lulz I want it to be via giant water tower, rather than bullet to face"   GM: "Ok, for 3 triumphs, that sounds like a fun way to do it."

This thread kind of reminds me of a particular topic on the O66, about Despair.  The players rolled a Despair on a slicing check, and then later on, the results were revealed to the players, as a silent alarm was triggered.

The players called foul, saying the Despair should've been resolved then, to which the GM said, and the hosts agreed, that the Despair was triggered then, but the effects were felt later.   

To me, this is the best way to even attempt to do this "banking" thing, though personally I'm strongly against it.

At best, I'd allow players to utilize their Triumphs in ways that the payoff isn't until later, but they still have to use the Triumph then.   Such as using a Triumph to toss a tracking device on an enemy as they are fleeing.   Hours later, they get to actually take advantage of that result, by tracking the enemy they tagged.

Yeah, I kind of like this. Sometimes it's hard to come up with a good description of a Despair on the fly as a GM. But making a note of it (and what it was in relation to), I could later throw it up as a resolution of that Despair - like you said: the effects, not the actual Despair itself. Doesn't even have to be that far in the future - the next couple of rounds could do it.

GM: "You've shut the door, but it's not locked. The stormtroopers will be able to get through next round."
MARK: "I'll blast the door controls. Two successes and...uh, a despair."
GM: "No problems, you've locked out the door."
MARK: "What about the despair?"
GM (faking it with an evil grin): "Ah...you'll see..."
MARK: (looks worried)
CARRIE: "Quick, find the controls that extend the bridge!"
GM (inspirational moment): "Now you know what happened with that despair..."
MARK (facepalms): "I think I just blasted it..."

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2 hours ago, Geodes said:

We would never allow that to happen in one of our games. The wookie would be healed or he would have to wait to attain further injury to rage. lol

 

As for storing advantages and triumphs, I can see where that might be fun for your group to fiddle with, but it breaks an already fragile system. You are trying to manipulate mechanics in a system designed to be narrative. That sends up a big red flag right away that you are not focused on the right aspect of the game, but as mentioned a few times, to each their own.

What aspect do you mean? I think there is room to tinker with this system more than with a simple pass fail system because narration is so important to the rules. If you get into trouble you can narrate your way out of it very easily, and with less evidence than in most systems. Anything that isn't going to meet the common sense test is something I will reject regardless of the rules. One player insisted that he could throw grenades at planetary range because the book didn't distinguish between the two range types. In addition to being wrong he was also not ever going to do that in my game because it's nonsense. My focus is always going to be on story and character so I play around with the mechanics because I am always trying to get them to better fit the narrative elements while still being mechanical. Status quo would dictate that you just fiat stuff to happen how you like or don't like, but I kind of find the mechanics a fun diversion on the side. 

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1 hour ago, Daronil said:

Yeah, I kind of like this. Sometimes it's hard to come up with a good description of a Despair on the fly as a GM. But making a note of it (and what it was in relation to), I could later throw it up as a resolution of that Despair - like you said: the effects, not the actual Despair itself. Doesn't even have to be that far in the future - the next couple of rounds could do it.

GM: "You've shut the door, but it's not locked. The stormtroopers will be able to get through next round."
MARK: "I'll blast the door controls. Two successes and...uh, a despair."
GM: "No problems, you've locked out the door."
MARK: "What about the despair?"
GM (faking it with an evil grin): "Ah...you'll see..."
MARK: (looks worried)
CARRIE: "Quick, find the controls that extend the bridge!"
GM (inspirational moment): "Now you know what happened with that despair..."
MARK (facepalms): "I think I just blasted it..."

I had a despair effect happen a full day later in a session a few weeks ago. It was an Underworld check, but yeah I don't see why these things have to be immediate, especially if it would be terrible to the narrative if it did happen. I'm not looking to screw anyone out of a bonus, and if it's combat then it's probably going to be instantaneous. But there are a lot of cool things that could come with delayed gratification. 

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5 hours ago, Archlyte said:

I had a despair effect happen a full day later in a session a few weeks ago. It was an Underworld check, but yeah I don't see why these things have to be immediate, especially if it would be terrible to the narrative if it did happen. I'm not looking to screw anyone out of a bonus, and if it's combat then it's probably going to be instantaneous. But there are a lot of cool things that could come with delayed gratification. 

In our game we had a despair which result materializes nine months after it was rolled. (yes, a male PC seduced a NPC woman, and got success with despair. Disclaimer, it was approved by PC who rolled it.) But the result was decided when it was rolled. IMO there is quite a big difference between banking a triumph or despair, versus its effect materializing later.

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5 hours ago, Archlyte said:

I had a despair effect happen a full day later in a session a few weeks ago. It was an Underworld check, but yeah I don't see why these things have to be immediate, especially if it would be terrible to the narrative if it did happen. I'm not looking to screw anyone out of a bonus, and if it's combat then it's probably going to be instantaneous. But there are a lot of cool things that could come with delayed gratification. 

Could also be that when Obi-Wan took out Dr Evazan and Ponda Baba he rolled a Despair on his Lightsabre check. The GM held onto it and then later used it to "power" the investigation by the stormtroopers; that's how they heard about a Jedi in the cantina and then used their informant to track them to Docking Bay 94. 

So the new PC - played by Harrison, of course - is calmly prepping the ship for takeoff when WHAM! a couple of stormtrooper minion groups burst into the docking bay and open fire! :)

The Despair was rolled earlier, but its effects didn't come into play until later in the game. 

 

Edited by Daronil

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@Daronil and @Kkuja those are great examples and I thank you for sharing them. I was highly entertained by both of them. I think this does show that at least for Triumph and Despair you need to sometimes offset big effects from the immediate moment in the game. You could always put those effects in if you are clever enough, but I don't think these delayed effects are a bad thing on their own. You just can't forget about them! lol

I think based on this I will go ahead and test Momentum in my game tomorrow. Here are my rules for testing:

 

 

  • 1 Strain taken every turn, to include the turn in which stored bonuses are spent, for banking/storing advantages or triumphs. This cannot be reduced to 0 by talents or other means except for spending advantage.
  • stored advantages and triumphs may not be used to activate Talents or Force Powers (I may change this later but for now I am still re-reading through all the talents for this purpose)
  • A maximum of 6 advantage and 1 triumph may be stored 
  • You may bestow advantages/triumphs to a teammate, but you still take the strain until it is spent.
  • Triumph and Advantages may not be carried from one encounter to the next. The end of the encounter causes all stored triumphs and Advantage to be lost. Effects of Triumph/Despair and narrative effects of Advantage/Threat may be delayed past this timeframe.
  • Characters unable to take Strain (Minions/Rivals) take wounds instead of strain for storing bonuses.  

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5 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

Sounds like a lot of math.  Another reason I would not be interested.

I come from a background of Rolemaster, d100 games, and Runequest. I don't mind math and clunk, but I respect your input there. I think this does introduce some bookkeeping.

 

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12 hours ago, Archlyte said:

I had a despair effect happen a full day later in a session a few weeks ago. It was an Underworld check, but yeah I don't see why these things have to be immediate, especially if it would be terrible to the narrative if it did happen. I'm not looking to screw anyone out of a bonus, and if it's combat then it's probably going to be instantaneous. But there are a lot of cool things that could come with delayed gratification. 

I feel the difference is that the effect was immediate, as in it was applied to something within the same encounter in a reasonable fashion.

If the GM had 'saved' it until later, and said "Looks like you may have dropped your tools while running as a result of that despair." then it doesn't make sense. How did Mark's shot to the door cause him to drop his tools later? You suddenly have to insert a butterfly effect to justify something. 

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1 minute ago, Geodes said:

I feel the difference is that the effect was immediate, as in it was applied to something within the same encounter in a reasonable fashion.

If the GM had 'saved' it until later, and said "Looks like you may have dropped your tools while running as a result of that despair." then it doesn't make sense. How did Mark's shot to the door cause him to drop his tools later? You suddenly have to insert a butterfly effect to justify something. 

I agree and having it be disconnected and unknown is not a good idea like you say I believe. Kind of like when you make a big setup for why the bad guys are after the players but they don't find that out, to them it just looks like a sudden nasty encounter inserted into their day. It lacks meaning

 

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Didn't read it all..but op. It sounds like you like this idea and want to try it. So do so. I look forward to seeing if you find a way to balance it out. I'm intrigued myself as my groupnwould end up with fair amounts of excess advantage and just auto heal stress as they run out of ideas for advantage in a fight. I also houseruled that 6 advantage in a single roll can get you the story effect of triumph as well.

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33 minutes ago, thecowley said:

Didn't read it all..but op. It sounds like you like this idea and want to try it. So do so. I look forward to seeing if you find a way to balance it out. I'm intrigued myself as my groupnwould end up with fair amounts of excess advantage and just auto heal stress as they run out of ideas for advantage in a fight. I also houseruled that 6 advantage in a single roll can get you the story effect of triumph as well.

Yeah I started off doubtful and on the fence, sort of did the thread for the fun of the discussion, but I started to want to see if it could work so I will try it out in my game tomorrow. I will post afterwards with the good and bad of what happened. I will try to be as objective as possible in relating the details because if it sucks I want to be open to that. Thanks for the post, I was encouraged by your friendly tone and adventurous nature. :)

 

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On 9/13/2017 at 0:48 AM, Archlyte said:

Ok cool. Would you think it might be better if it required Strain to hold? Or if it required a Destiny Point to use? Also 2P51 could you give me an example of a really bad talent to have go off at will? Thank you for the replies btw :)

 

Consider that one of the uses of a Triumph is to Upgrade a later roll, simply "holding onto" the Triumph and adding it to a later result is a clear rule break.

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Aye, I am of the opinion that results should be spent there and then; though the effects of those results might not be apparent until later. A common thing that I find under rated is the ability get something that would make a proceeding task easier. E.g. "hang on this guy has dropped a coding clylinder? But what is it for?" "Oh an orb. Interesting I guess." "Hmm nothing seems to have happened, but that means we shouldn't linger here!" e.c.t

The biggest problem I find with the system is that banking a Thriumph may mean that those game changing effects are being spent on checks completely unrelated to the original check,  which I guess is alright if thats what you are aiming for, but I tend to be a big fan of fortune being quite fickle, on one encounter it's smooth sailing, on the other everything has gone wrong.

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23 hours ago, Lordbiscuit said:

Aye, I am of the opinion that results should be spent there and then; though the effects of those results might not be apparent until later. A common thing that I find under rated is the ability get something that would make a proceeding task easier. E.g. "hang on this guy has dropped a coding clylinder? But what is it for?" "Oh an orb. Interesting I guess." "Hmm nothing seems to have happened, but that means we shouldn't linger here!" e.c.t

The biggest problem I find with the system is that banking a Thriumph may mean that those game changing effects are being spent on checks completely unrelated to the original check,  which I guess is alright if thats what you are aiming for, but I tend to be a big fan of fortune being quite fickle, on one encounter it's smooth sailing, on the other everything has gone wrong.

Thank you for great input. Yeah I am actually going for that effect as you mentioned, and I agree that it does not really end up with the same dynamic any more as far as destiny points and their RAW use. I don't fudge dice, so to me the random element is mostly intact, but I do like the idea of a sacrifice in order to get a gain. So they take strain every round they are holding those bonuses, in addition to not getting them in the round they were rolled. The get a gain in that they get to consolidate bonuses on a turn, but it cost them both in strain and time. I also think you raise a good question about benefits from a good ability helping a lesser ability. I have yet to see a compelling example of why this would be bad and it seems more to be an objection based in how it violates the skill structure. This is something that I would gladly have though if it's explained well enough. If it makes no sense then I won't allow it, and they will have to either re-use the skill that generated the bonuses to claim them, or have a use that makes sense. 

Edited by Archlyte

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11 hours ago, GM Stark said:

Consider that one of the uses of a Triumph is to Upgrade a later roll, simply "holding onto" the Triumph and adding it to a later result is a clear rule break.

I'm pretty sure I'm breaking quite a few rules when using this :) Yeah and its a good point you bring up about bonuses for disparate skills. Like I said above though I will disallow it if its something ridiculous, and they can eiter try a different explanation or simply re-use the skill that generated the bonuses in the round they came from. 

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On 14/09/2017 at 7:58 PM, Archlyte said:

@Daronil and @Kkuja those are great examples and I thank you for sharing them.

Thank you for kind words. And thank you for for rising this interesting topic.

On 14/09/2017 at 7:58 PM, Archlyte said:

I think based on this I will go ahead and test Momentum in my game tomorrow. Here are my rules for testing:

  • 1 Strain taken every turn, to include the turn in which stored bonuses are spent, for banking/storing advantages or triumphs. This cannot be reduced to 0 by talents or other means except for spending advantage.
  • stored advantages and triumphs may not be used to activate Talents or Force Powers (I may change this later but for now I am still re-reading through all the talents for this purpose)
  • A maximum of 6 advantage and 1 triumph may be stored 
  • You may bestow advantages/triumphs to a teammate, but you still take the strain until it is spent.
  • Triumph and Advantages may not be carried from one encounter to the next. The end of the encounter causes all stored triumphs and Advantage to be lost. Effects of Triumph/Despair and narrative effects of Advantage/Threat may be delayed past this timeframe.
  • Characters unable to take Strain (Minions/Rivals) take wounds instead of strain for storing bonuses.  

My final advice to you is: "Keep it simple". Simpler it is to remember more likely you are likely to remember it. My personal preference is to condence everything to one number or roll (or thing to remember). (If I'd use banking, I'd personally make it so that PCs are able to bank triumps (and advantages?), but are limited to one encounter. No additional math to remember etc.)

And, test it before making any permanent decisions. If it works for you, then use it. 

IMO: make it as simple as possible. Otherwise something will be forgotten.

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2 hours ago, Archlyte said:

I'm pretty sure I'm breaking quite a few rules when using this :) Yeah and its a good point you bring up about bonuses for disparate skills. Like I said above though I will disallow it if its something ridiculous, and they can eiter try a different explanation or simply re-use the skill that generated the bonuses in the round they came from. 

No, you are not breaking rules, you are changing them. ;) After all, FFG SW rules are just a framework of rules to have RPG fun with friends. If you keep your wits with house rules and events, you will be fine.

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So first game tonight with this new house rule and it never got used in the game lol. The players all were excited to use it, but they got into combat and didn't want to lessen attacks or take strain for attacks that didn't hit by banking bonuses. There was really only one actual combat in the session and it was against a single assassin droid. One player did bring up something I didn't think of because he asked if he could bank the advantage from his Initiative roll. I had to stop and think on that one. I will keep updating the thread as I use the rule more and more to talk about the good and bad of it. 

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