XTrueFinale

Rotation still challenging to bring in new players

39 posts in this topic

In a way it's kind off great for them to use the Rotation opportunity to also kick some cards from the core and revive some back from the dead.

However the challenge in my opinion is still trying to get new players on board, given the amount of cards they will still need to collect to keep up.

Also typical to LCG core sets, even the new core still has singles of cards. I think this is a missed opportunity to give any starting a full play set of cards in 1 just in box. I personally have every pack to date including triple cores, and I may have considered getting the new core set , though not practical, if hey I'm getting a full play set of the cards with new artwork.

I think either unless old data cycle packs somehow go down in price or they come up with consolidating past data cycles into one deluxe boxed at a cost-effective price, no matter how many of us like this game, it's going to be intimidating to get new players to jump on board

TCGs on the other hand, regardless of the theme, even though more expensive to 'collect' in the long term, offers an easy buy a starter box deck or 2 and some boosters and off you go...

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I stepped out from Netrunner back in late 2015. I would have jumped back in with this if it was version 2.0, but if I still have to buy 5 card cycles, then I'm gonna pass. It's a shame, too, because I really did love the game, and I miss it. But I live in a campus town, which is very transient. It's extremely hard to get people to buy into an LCG when they have to buy multiple card cycles when they enter in order to be competitive. That's what kills LCG's every time in this area. College students can't afford to drop that kind of cash on a game they are not already experts at playing. So I'm not going to waste my time with L5R for these reasons. That, and my wife and I don't have complete deckbuilding flexibility unless we buy 6 core sets instead of just 3. That's not going to happen. One of the things we loved about Netrunner is that it was built for 2 players, not 1.

Marinealver likes this

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I think the average player they're hoping to attract, at this point, is not the completionist. Completionism is tempting in the short-term, when the game is still new and it's reasonable. In the long-term, I don't think it's going to be expected. They suggest starting with one core, then jumping into either Terminal Directive and/or the boxes for your faction(s). That will give you a playable deck already. After that, you see cards you like, you figure out what pack they're in, and you buy it. Rinse and repeat until you have a decent collection; not everything, but plenty to build what you want with.

I've been out for a few cycles, and I'm tempted to get back in. The new core delights me; it fixes a lot of the problems of the old core, and I don't actually have to buy it; I have all those cards. I'll go onto netrunnerdb.com, start messing around, see what deckbuilding looks like post-new-core. I think it's unlikely I'll need more than a few packs to get what I need to make a couple fun decks.

feydruatha likes this

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Looks like they should have rotated more cards out instead of just the two cycles. Then again the number of deluxe expansions that would be needed if you are a completionist is a lot. I do think the way they described buying cards and how deluxe expansions are really about specific factions and cycle packs, specific cards was interesting for its honest-ness. 

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They've sold too many products recently, Terminal Directive was only a few months back, to do a full reboot.

What they really really really screwed up on was not bring out a new core set with full play sets and a good variety of cards from more than just the old core and first two cycles. The new core could have been something for new players to buy and jump right into netrunner. Now it is something to buy 3 of, on top of everything else. Huge barrier and huge fail. 

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They provide complete play sets in all of their other netrunner products. There is nothing tiresome about the introduction to the game being a complete set nor is their nothing tiresome about holding them to that standard. No one has any desire to buy 3 of their next deluxe box set.

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Exactly Mep that is what I'm trying to say, I think it's a missed opportunity to make it easy for new players to get into an already long running and existing game.  I'm sure some of us who has been playing since the game's conception couldn't care less about the core 2.0, so therefore isn't core 2.0's target market new players? So wouldn't it make sense to design the product as convenient as possible for new players to get into the game and hit the ground running after buying core 2.0 instead of thinking gee, do I need to buy more core sets on top of those other expansion? It's looking to get pricey as game to get into and play, maybe I'll pass on this game...

Daigotsu Steve likes this

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The new Core design is just fine. It allows the creation of complete Runner and Corp decks, and that is what new players look for. You can easily create a complete Runner deck from any Runner faction and a complete Corp deck of any Corp faction to oppose it. With 7 factions plus neutrals there are limits to the card count they can have while keeping the price point. Doing what you're calling complete would mean a 409 card Core set. Or in other words the Core would cost in the $70-75 range. All this just to appease the tiny fraction of the player base who feel they just HAVE to have three of everything. 

Frankly the reaction I'm seeing everywhere is the exact opposite of this negativity - it is players who had given up the game seeing the set and expressing interest in getting back in. The reaction has been overwhelmingly positive to which cards got booted and also to the cards saved from rotation by being splashed into the new Core. 

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You want three of everything just buy three. You want one you can buy one. 

I bought one of the new destiny 2 player sets and am very happy with it. Maybe I buy a second, maybe I don't. I like the option. 

The thing you jokers don't want to here is the $120 card set you are asking for is a ridiculous product. assuming it sold at the same rate as a standard set you would be moving 1/3 of the copies. Totally killing the econimies of scale the small starters benefit from. 

The only reason the $40 price point is an option is the ability to sell 1-3 copies to each consumer.

 

and to think some of you try to play corp.

Daigotsu Steve likes this

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Some of us are in the know and like to play runner and know what the corp is up to. To be real here, those cards do not cost a lot to print and including a full set of cards would barely budge the production costs. So we can stop pretending that is an actual problem. Also positivity about the rotation has absolutely nothing to do with FFG not selling a complete core set. Two very separate issues. I started netrunner about 6 months ago and I can tell you I was very put off when I found out I needed to buy another core set. Just another core set, the rest of them is just one ofs. It is confusing, frustrating and feels like they are ripping people off. It is just a poor way to introduce people to the game, like the two player Destiny box not even having a full deck included. It's the assumption you are getting complete game in one box only to find out later that you only bought half a game. Destiny is harder because those dice are not nearly as cheap to make as cards and there is good value in the number of dice in that box, but the optics are still there and a lot of people are upset by it.

Franky, it is just a piss poor way to introduce someone new to the game. Now people who have played a while and have all the cards simply do not think along those lines or even care. They are just excited about rotation without realizing FFG screwed up and could have done a great job of introducing new people to the game. Seriously, they didn't have much development costs in this new core and cards don't cost much to print. A $45 box with a full set would have been a much better way to grow the game.

Maybe in Core Set 4.0 where Chaos Theory is in the art work for Clone Retirement they'll have this one figured out - Don't introduce people to the game by making them feel ripped off.

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When factoring in the costs of product weight on shipping and storage costs, $45 is naively optimistic. At a minimum it would probably be $60, but we're both guessing. "The components of the product are cheap, therefore enhancements could be added at cost" is a deeply naïve proposition. 

But even if it came in as cheaply as $60, which I suspect is still optimistic, you'd be reducing overall sales. There is an economic reality that price points influence demand. More people will buy a less expensive product even if it doesn't have everything in the more expensive product, even if the more expensive one is pound-for-pound a better value. It's a balancing act.

feydruatha and Joelist like this

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3 hours ago, Grimwalker said:

When factoring in the costs of product weight on shipping and storage costs, $45 is naively optimistic. At a minimum it would probably be $60, but we're both guessing. "The components of the product are cheap, therefore enhancements could be added at cost" is a deeply naïve proposition. 

But even if it came in as cheaply as $60, which I suspect is still optimistic, you'd be reducing overall sales. There is an economic reality that price points influence demand. More people will buy a less expensive product even if it doesn't have everything in the more expensive product, even if the more expensive one is pound-for-pound a better value. It's a balancing act.

Considering that you're going from 247 cards to 409, the idea that they can just add 162 cards for $5 is laughable.  That's why I ballparked it at $70 - cards are not as cheap to print as supposed by some because it is more involved than just calling up a card on a computer and hitting Print. Runs have to be setup, QA has to be factored in, and also in this case packaging has to be changed as 409 cards is going to need a Terminal Directive sized box. Shipping costs more because (as noted) it will weight more and so on. 

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6 hours ago, Grimwalker said:

But even if it came in as cheaply as $60, which I suspect is still optimistic, you'd be reducing overall sales....

I beg to differ. You'd have more people buying and playing the game, as it's more likely that I would be one of them.

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8 minutes ago, Wh0isTh3D0ct0r said:

I beg to differ. You'd have more people buying and playing the game, as it's more likely that I would be one of them.

So you don't play a great game like Netrunner, because you don't get 3 copies of each card in the Core set?

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7 hours ago, Grimwalker said:

When factoring in the costs of product weight on shipping and storage costs, $45 is naively optimistic. At a minimum it would probably be $60, but we're both guessing. "The components of the product are cheap, therefore enhancements could be added at cost" is a deeply naïve proposition. 

But even if it came in as cheaply as $60, which I suspect is still optimistic, you'd be reducing overall sales. There is an economic reality that price points influence demand. More people will buy a less expensive product even if it doesn't have everything in the more expensive product, even if the more expensive one is pound-for-pound a better value. It's a balancing act.

Yeah, these things just don't cost that much. When I said it would increase their costs by maybe $5 that is actually a very good number, including the shipping. Plaid Hat offers their Ashes which has more cards and a bunch of dice at $50 and about $40 online. Far better value than Netrunner coming in at $120 for a full set. That is the problem, they have to compete with other companies now that simply don't pull the multiple core BS. This is an intro for new players and they should make the game accessible from the start. With a little bit of research many people just pass. Price point entry into this game is a huge barrier which is one of the reasons rotation was called for. This core set doesn't help solve this problem in anyway. It is a fail on FFG's part.

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2 hours ago, Wh0isTh3D0ct0r said:

I beg to differ. You'd have more people buying and playing the game, as it's more likely that I would be one of them.

My claim is based on comments from people from the company citing sales data.

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2 hours ago, Mep said:

Yeah, these things just don't cost that much. When I said it would increase their costs by maybe $5 that is actually a very good number, including the shipping. Plaid Hat offers their Ashes which has more cards and a bunch of dice at $50 and about $40 online. Far better value than Netrunner coming in at $120 for a full set. That is the problem, they have to compete with other companies now that simply don't pull the multiple core BS. This is an intro for new players and they should make the game accessible from the start. With a little bit of research many people just pass. Price point entry into this game is a huge barrier which is one of the reasons rotation was called for. This core set doesn't help solve this problem in anyway. It is a fail on FFG's part.

The core set is deliberately designed to come in at a $40 "appetizer" price point rather than a $60 "main course." 

The only reason to complain is if you ordered the appetizer expecting a full meal, when in reality it's silly to complain that it doesn't come with sides and a drink.

And, incidentally, the core set of Ashes has about the same number of actual cards as the new Revised Core Set. It's just that Netrunner gives a greater variety of cards, and thus more out-of-the box deckbuilding options.

Brekekekiwi likes this

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Agreed, the price point is very important and going more than $50 is a mistake. They can still offer a full set of cards at that price point without taking a hit. Those cards cost in the neighborhood of 1-2 cents each to make. More money is probably spent on the box than the cards. No one, and I mean no one, new to a game expects the core to be anything less than a full meal until they find out otherwise. Then they feel price gouge and walk away. Shameless money grabs really don't work as well as you might think. This is a problem and why this game won't grow the way it should. They really want the core to be a great experience and make all their money on the expansion and data packs.

Edited by Mep

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I'm obviously not going to convince you; you've got your mind made up even though nothing you've said is factual. You're simply projecting your own experience and preferences as though they were universal.

Brekekekiwi and cheapmate like this

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14 hours ago, Grimwalker said:

I'm obviously not going to convince you; you've got your mind made up even though nothing you've said is factual. You're simply projecting your own experience and preferences as though they were universal.

Yeah, actually, card games have been around a long time and their manufacturing costs are well known, even if you do not know them. You are projecting your own ignorance and believing everyone must also have no clue as well. This is simply not true. The truth is for that extra $80 you are getting two more boxes and about $3-4 worth of cards, sans duplicates. The boxes are nice and have value and having 9 copies of some of the cards does have some value but $80 of value? You seem to think so, That part is opinion and we can each have our own opinion on the value but they can IN FACT, produce a full play set for the core and still easily hit a good price point. Even uneducated drug dealers know you give the first one for free and they do extremely well for themselves. FFG is trying way too hard to make money off the introductory set when there is a lot of money to be made after that set.

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On 9/13/2017 at 2:12 PM, cheapmate said:

So you don't play a great game like Netrunner, because you don't get 3 copies of each card in the Core set?

What part of "more likely" do you not understand? When did I ever say that having to buy 3 copies of a core was the only reason I wasn't buying back into the game?

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55 minutes ago, Wh0isTh3D0ct0r said:

What part of "more likely" do you not understand?

"Uhh... Core concept?"

Seriously though, apologies for any assumptions made.

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On 9/13/2017 at 11:06 AM, Joelist said:

packaging has to be changed as 409 cards is going to need a Terminal Directive sized box. 

Or just a better insert.  There's so much unused space in both Netrunner core set and Terminal Directive.  Both could easily come in smaller boxes.  But shelf presence is a big thing too.

 

I sent my brother a copy of Netrunner a while back plus another 300-ish cards I had duplicates of from extra core sets and draft packs, and one of the deluxe expansions. It all fit in the box just fine.

Edited by benstylus

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Go7gaming sells inserts for the both the core box and terminal directive. They can both hold a couple thousand cards. There is no space problem with these boxes. I can not explain why terminal directive is such a big box other than FFG is providing another box to store cards in (not a bad thing). The core box is big since it holds cardboard for the tokens and fits their stand manufacturing size. Those boxes probably cost as much to produce as the 1-2 cent/card they contain. FFG's boxes are actually quite nice for card storage and provides some value for these products.

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