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Mon no Oni

Interesting "eternal" legality news

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Ok, this has just been announced for Android Netrunner, but it could have consequences for L5R down the road.

In essence, just after the first two cycles are rotated out, a Revised Core Set is going to be printed. This new core set is going to include some cards from the two cycles that are dropped (therefore, reinstating them into legality) but, more important IMO, cards from the original CS that aren't reprinted in the RCS also fall out of legality!

Personally, I'm not against for such a move for L5R in a few years. I never liked the idea of all cards being evergreen with no chance to correct mistakes. First, because at some point we were going to realize that so-and-so card were OP and, while developers could design around that problem for some time, eventually they would be left without design room and would lead to an stagnant playing field. Secondly, from an aesthetical point of view, I didn't like the idea of Champions and other unique characters would continue appearing on the tables years after they were dead in the history.

Frankly, I see no downside to it. "Eternal" legality is not eternal anymore... and I'm OK with that. Call it mono no aware, if you must.

*NOTE: From the info, there are no new cards so you absolutely DON'T need to buy the cards again. Some cards have new artwork, and probably errata will go into the new printings of some of these cards. It simple sets a new standard for what's legal and what's not. If I'm a dedicated player, I prefer seeing some core cards go out (which is happening with the cycles anyways) if that's good for the game.

Edited by Mon no Oni
typos, typos everywhere!

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Honestly I was hoping that FFG would utilize the advancing plot structure of L5R's fiction as a method of creating a cycle not only of expansions, but of core sets as well. Ideally the timetable would be several years for each core just so that it doesn't feel like gouging, but I feel like that could create a really cool evolution of clans over time to reflect both the story and mechanical development over time. Perhaps they could have introduced different formats highlighting different time periods that could be drawn from, somewhat similar to how Wizard's does format rotations with MTG. I realize that's mostly wishlisting, but the point is that I would be totally on-board for a core set rotation after several years if for no other reason than to prolong the health of the game while, simultaneously, servicing the theme of Mono no Aware and the plot itself.

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Never played Netrunner, but seems like a logical move for FFG to get new players into the game. Only downside is that if any of those cards that aren't going to be legal/aren't included in the RCS become legal again down the road, what do the players that bought the RCS do? They'd have to go back and buy the original core sets and expansions to fill in gaps? Seems like if this is the model they're going with, those cards will need to be made permanently illegal, which is limiting in its own way. 

The only thing that really worries  me about this is seeing so many anecdotes from Netrunner, Thrones, and Star Wars players complaining about busted combos and RPS match ups with top decks that have plagued those respective games. I remember when Netrunner came out and became the new hotness, and now it seems like it's alienated a good portion of its player base. Makes me cautious about the future of L5R/any LCG, really. 

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I like the idea that every card will eventually rotate out.  I like the idea of a "revised core" re-release of older, still legal cards IF they are released as a play-set box, so you don't buy 3x cores.

Also - they should release this now so I don't have to buy 3 cores lol

Edited by shosuko

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Well, I don't know about Star Wars as it is a completely different type of game. ANR and AGOT2E are probably more "on-model" to L5R LCG.  There is a complete list of what's going to be on the the Revised CR so some conclusions can be made. Surely ANR players are right now analizing what's in and whats out, but right now I'd say half the cards in the Core Set (including identities, which are the equivalent of strongholds) are out, being replaced by cards of the first two cycles, so the changes are quite extensive. I really don't know what has been the criteria: underpowered cards, overpowered cards... probably a little of each. Personaly I think it would be as silly to irremediably phase out a balanced, thematic and playable card as keeping a problematic card just because one happened to go in a cycle and the other, in the Core.

In any case, I think it is a nice way to remove bugs, rebalance the system, and shake what otherwise could become an stagnant metagame.

Edited by Mon no Oni

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6 minutes ago, Sometimes Y said:

Never played Netrunner, but seems like a logical move for FFG to get new players into the game. Only downside is that if any of those cards that aren't going to be legal/aren't included in the RCS become legal again down the road, what do the players that bought the RCS do? They'd have to go back and buy the original core sets and expansions to fill in gaps? Seems like if this is the model they're going with, those cards will need to be made permanently illegal, which is limiting in its own way. 

I figure that if, 4 years from now, they decide to do a Re-Revised Core Set, then they would just reprint those cards in a legal set.

 

Quote

The only thing that really worries  me about this is seeing so many anecdotes from Netrunner, Thrones, and Star Wars players complaining about busted combos and RPS match ups with top decks that have plagued those respective games. I remember when Netrunner came out and became the new hotness, and now it seems like it's alienated a good portion of its player base. Makes me cautious about the future of L5R/any LCG, really. 

I see it quite differently. Precisely THIS is the kind of thing than can clean those combos and bad matchups. Now they have the chance to rebalance everything.

Edited by Mon no Oni

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4 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I like the idea that every card will eventually rotate out.  I like the idea of a "revised core" re-release of older, still legal cards IF they are released as a play-set box, so you don't buy 3x cores.  Also - they should release this now so I don't have to buy 3 cores lol

That's the thing. You have zero need to buy a revised Core Set. You already have all the cards, there is nothing new there.

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TBH I hope that if there is a L5R RCS in four years, it won't just be the CS - some CS cards + some cycle cards.

I would prefer a "historical approach." Hida Tomunatsu for example has already died. She should not be in the RCS, IMO. If you want to play her, you have to "go back" to her era (the OCS). As a minor character, she is not the best example. But let's say oh I dunno an entire family or Great Clan is dissolved by the Emperor. The successive RCS should not include any characters from said family or Clan.

This would give each full rotation the feeling of a distinct time period.

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Just for instance, (even if we already know that what happened in the old story won't necesarily happen again) let's asume that over the next 3-4 years the first arc has finished and the Scorpion Clan Coup (or equivalent event) is played out. In that case we would need Shoju and Akodo Toturi, and all other the dead people rotated out, as well as new versions of Matsu Tsuko as a Champion, unaligned Toturi, undead Yogo Junzo, etc... in an updated core set.

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I also saw the announcement of Netrunner Core 2.0, and when you look at what is happening it is clever - it is in effect a soft reboot of Netrunner.

They are taking advantage of reissuing the Core to pull out most of the really problematic cards while inserting (and thus immunizing to Rotation) cards from the packs that have passed the test of time. They also in the process are nerfing the biggest issue in ANR - the development of non-interactive play styles (in ANR terms this is why Noise just got terminated). Also, the new Core means a new rulebook which is overdue. 

Regarding AGOT 2e that was effectively a redesign that was BADLY needed (any game where you need a keyword like Moribund has issues). 

So, how does this apply to L5R?

Rotation would not even start until the end of the seventh cycle in the game. Add in the already unveiled system where the story will be partly driven by player input and I think we'll see Deluxe boxes that put these player choices into the game. 

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On one hand, rotation is healthy when done right, on the other I feel like a revised core set would just have them change things for the sake of change. Like the champions changing mechanically, which I feel would be poor.

However, the characters do age and die in the story. We don't want multiple champions running around, other wise we would end up with entire champion based decks in 4-5 years. This could easily be handled by using the CCG's "Soul of ___" idea in a tweaked way.

Lets say Kisada dies (Gloriously and only atop a mountain of Oni/Ninja corpses of course) before the revised core set and Yakamo takes over as champion. In the next core set they would print Hida Yakamo as a functional reprint of Kisada with the "Soul of Hida Kisada" printed, which is explained in the rules to mean that the card is legally the same as the original and you cannot include a "Soul of" in the same deck with its ancestor. So mechanically, the crab champion does not change in terms of core set balance, but the character, the art, and the flavor of the card becomes more current, to allow the game to retain its core concept while also updating flavor.

Just an idea that wouldn't be that hard to work with.

Edited by TheItsyBitsySpider
spelling is not easy sometimes -_-

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11 hours ago, shosuko said:

I like the idea that every card will eventually rotate out.  I like the idea of a "revised core" re-release of older, still legal cards IF they are released as a play-set box, so you don't buy 3x cores.

Also - they should release this now so I don't have to buy 3 cores lol

Well the thing is, though, if you've been following the game from the start - and made the 3x Core buy-in at some point - you will already have a playset of everything in the Revised Core and will have no need to purchase it, making this a non-issue.

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28 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

Well the thing is, though, if you've been following the game from the start - and made the 3x Core buy-in at some point - you will already have a playset of everything in the Revised Core and will have no need to purchase it, making this a non-issue.

Ah - but if I wanted to get into ANR a single core with full play sets would be quite appealing.  I haven't followed that at all.

Further - if they released a playset-core for L5R immediately I'd be thrilled.

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48 minutes ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

On one hand, rotation is healthy when done right, on the other I feel like a revised core set would just have them change things for the sake of change. Like the champions changing mechanically, which I feel would be poor.

However, the characters do age and die in the story. We don't want multiple champions running around, other wise we would end up with entire champion based decks in 4-5 years. This could easily be handled by using the CCG's "Soul of ___" idea in a tweaked way.

Lets say Kisada dies (Gloriously and only atop a mountain of Oni/Ninja corpses of course) before the revised core set and Yakamo takes over as champion. In the next core set they would print Hida Yakamo as a functional reprint of Kisada with the "Soul of Hida Kisada" printed, which is explained in the rules to mean that the card is legally the same as the original and you cannot include a "Soul of" in the same deck with its ancestor. So mechanically, the crab champion does not change in terms of core set balance, but the character, the art, and the flavor of the card becomes more current, to allow the game to retain its core concept while also updating flavor.

Just an idea that wouldn't be that hard to work with.

That seems like it could quickly become too limiting on Clan Champions, if each is just version 2 of the previous champion.  It would solve the problem, but it would mean that we couldn't have Clan Champions with new abilities to show their differences from prior champions.  One solution would simply be to make "Clan Champion" a keyword with a rule that a deck may only contain three Clan Champion cards total, regardless of title.

Another approach would be to simply ask how synergistic will the champions even be together, and how big a problem would all-champion decks even be?  If it's not going to be meta-defining, and people are just doing it for fun and novelty, is it even an issue that needs to be addressed?

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23 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Ah - but if I wanted to get into ANR a single core with full play sets would be quite appealing.  I haven't followed that at all.

Further - if they released a playset-core for L5R immediately I'd be thrilled.

They won't. It just doesn't mesh with their commercial model. I won't go into details because that horse has been beaten to death and beyond.

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21 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

That seems like it could quickly become too limiting on Clan Champions, if each is just version 2 of the previous champion.  It would solve the problem, but it would mean that we couldn't have Clan Champions with new abilities to show their differences from prior champions.  One solution would simply be to make "Clan Champion" a keyword with a rule that a deck may only contain three Clan Champion cards total, regardless of title.

Another approach would be to simply ask how synergistic will the champions even be together, and how big a problem would all-champion decks even be?  If it's not going to be meta-defining, and people are just doing it for fun and novelty, is it even an issue that needs to be addressed?

Not to mention that so far our Champion seems just bad. Thinking that she could be replaced one day with someone who has a more powerful ability could offer some hope.

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I would like to point out that the new revised core set (You can dig up the cards in it if you dig around in the android news area), does NOT contain a full playset of legal cards, but instead has a similar set of 1x, 2x and 3x of various cards as the original core.

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14 minutes ago, Mirith said:

I would like to point out that the new revised core set (You can dig up the cards in it if you dig around in the android news area), does NOT contain a full playset of legal cards, but instead has a similar set of 1x, 2x and 3x of various cards as the original core.

ew  that sucks.  I hoped it would be more enticing to new players, and follow the play set format deluxe boxes do.  

Edited by shosuko

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Sorry I'm advance if I'm missing something, I don't play ANR it GOT.

What it sounds like to me is that the revised core set will include some if the cards that were in the original core set as well as cards that appeared in the cycle packs, which would normally rotate out.

My questions are:

Does the revised core also contain brand new cards or brand new versions of old cards?

Are cards that were in the original core, which do not make it back to the revised core, no longer legal?

Do the cards from the deluxe expansions that were released before the revised core remain legal?

I guess we'll find out in 4 years.

 

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1 minute ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Sorry I'm advance if I'm missing something, I don't play ANR it GOT.

What it sounds like to me is that the revised core set will include some if the cards that were in the original core set as well as cards that appeared in the cycle packs, which would normally rotate out.

My questions are:

Does the revised core also contain brand new cards or brand new versions of old cards?

Are cards that were in the original core, which do not make it back to the revised core, no longer legal?

Do the cards from the deluxe expansions that were released before the revised core remain legal?

I guess we'll find out in 4 years.

 

My answers are

The Revised Core does not contain brand new cards, although there is some new card art on existing cards.

Cards which are no longer in the current core are no longer legal.

Cards from Deluxe expansions remain evergreen.

Based on what I have read around the place.

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