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Anyone think unpainted and game saturation will hurt Legion?

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8 hours ago, kmanweiss said:

Is it cost prohibitive? Despite what people here will tell you, it probably isn't.  But obviously it's not something FFG wants to deal with.

When the prepainted issue for IA came up, the developers themselves said that prepainting is cost prohibitive. I don't think technology has improved to the point where that has changed.

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I pray world leaders can find a solution to the hurt before these forums get any closer to a Final Solution.

Curse that seditious element who don't realize the negative feels generated by talking objectively over a game!!!

 

 

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10 hours ago, tuco74 said:

But it wouldn't. Legion is specifically an attempt to sell to tabletop wargamers. In that market, preassembled/prepainted minis just don't cut it. Assembling (up to a point) and painting minis is a central part of the hobby, wargamers don't see it as an issue or a rip off or added complexity...it's a big part of the reason for enjoying the hobby. Yes, FFG might not bring some of their existing customers to Legion for this reason, but that number will be outnumbered by the wargamers they are looking to attract.

I completely agree. The fact that you have to assemble and paint the minis is exactly why I'll be investing in this game. I'm a painter first, and gamer second.

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On 12.9.2017 at 6:25 AM, Shieldwolf said:

I don't want to paint anymore, but I want this game. Now I just have to wait 5 years for someone to ebay off their copy.

Or you hire a comission painter if you want to play sooner rather than later. Even their lowest standard would still beat prepainted and the cost really isn't that bad when you consider the time saved.

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On 9/11/2017 at 10:17 AM, kmanweiss said:

Would pre-painted, pre-assembled stuff sell better and reach a wider market?  Absolutely. 

You are so wrong here, that it's actually kind of amusing.  After having been proved wrong so many times on this board, you either are surprisingly dense, intentionally obtuse, or simply don't read anything anyone else says.

Pre-painted, pre-assembled stuff would not sell better to a wider market. 

On 9/11/2017 at 10:17 AM, kmanweiss said:

Is it cost prohibitive? 

Yes it is, this again has been proven time and time again.  I can point to the pre-painted and assembled Premium starter pack for Dust that costs three times as much as proof of this.

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On 9/11/2017 at 6:37 PM, ZoBOOMafu said:

I don't think so..  

Painting white not my favorite.. but I am still willing to give it a go..

 

I think Ruleset limitations and Length of game(Time) are more likely bigger deterrents

What do you mean by rule set limitations?

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On 9/11/2017 at 6:03 PM, Blackbird888 said:

When the prepainted issue for IA came up, the developers themselves said that prepainting is cost prohibitive. I don't think technology has improved to the point where that has changed.

Kids toys prove pre-painted works just fine. We will see how long it takes them to come around.  Thanks for supporting the unpainted to the point that I'm no longer interested.  We could probably use kids toys and s save money too. 

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6 hours ago, KrisWall said:

What do you mean by rule set limitations?

Pretty sure he means how flexible they are in covering most situations that come up and how resistant they are to list "abuse"

For an example search up "cover is not meanful enough" and the discussion there

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I just can't understand why they wouldn't make the scale the same as IA? Cross over use of miniatures would be an asset for both games. Seems like a blatant ploy to make one choose between them and not embrace players. Building a relationship with your customer base is as important as loyalty is to a manufacturer.

 

*shrugs*

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2 hours ago, Nihm said:

I just can't understand why they wouldn't make the scale the same as IA? Cross over use of miniatures would be an asset for both games. Seems like a blatant ploy to make one choose between them and not embrace players. Building a relationship with your customer base is as important as loyalty is to a manufacturer.

 

*shrugs*

That's a perfectly valid feeling... especially for someone who plays IA. If that was there target market for the game then they definitely missed the boat.

If on the other hand they are targeting gamers who  do not currently play IA, then it would be a big barrier to entry. Those players would already be way behind the curve and much less likely to pick up Legion. I know that would be my reaction.

Of course I'm overly generalizing here, but that is the way I view it... that they would gladly welcome IA players, but they will be equally happy if you choose to continue with IA and completely ignore Legion.

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2 hours ago, ozmodon said:

Kids toys prove pre-painted works just fine. We will see how long it takes them to come around.  Thanks for supporting the unpainted to the point that I'm no longer interested.  We could probably use kids toys and s save money too. 

Those don't look good, however, and the price scales badly. You need presumably 20 to 60 models of varying size to play legion. That is going to cost you a fortune in toys.

Successful prepainted miniatures games have much lower model counts (see: X-Wing with 2 to 8, so roughly a tenth, Armada, pretty sure Heroclicks, too, though I have no idea about that game as I haven't seen it in Germany at all). Just look at the price difference for X-Wing and Legion at a single model level: 15€ per model for X-Wing, roughly 3€ per model for Legion! Not to mention the quality would need to be higher than for X-Wing, since humanoids and especially faces are a lot harder to paint showing inaccuracies more easily. 

I will keep saying this on these discussions: Hiring a comission painter is not unaffordable at all. Their lowest standards will beat prepainted any time of the day. Legion models will run at 3-8€ for infantry depending on the quality achieved and the experience of the painter. Thats 99-264€ if you want tge entire core set painted. Not cheap, but neither would prepainted be nor is that unreasonable in the hobby space where you already need the disposable income anyways.

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9 hours ago, Ralgon said:

Pretty sure he means how flexible they are in covering most situations that come up and how resistant they are to list "abuse"

For an example search up "cover is not meanful enough" and the discussion there

If their other games are anything to base off of, the rules will be fine.  X-Wing is generally fine.  Armada is generally fine.  Runewars is generally fine.  The various LCGs are generally fine.  Etc, etc.  FFG typically writes clean rules and typically address list 'abuse' issues fairly quickly via FAQ or Errata.  This won't be 40k where the rules allow some really abusive situations (near immortal assassin spam, flyer spam) and are riddled with ambiguities.

I'm unclear on why people are saying cover isn't meaningful enough when we haven't yet seen the full rules and haven't yet played in full games.  Cover may be exactly where it's supposed to be.  We're very much in a wait and see mode right now.

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9 hours ago, Nihm said:

I just can't understand why they wouldn't make the scale the same as IA? Cross over use of miniatures would be an asset for both games. Seems like a blatant ploy to make one choose between them and not embrace players. Building a relationship with your customer base is as important as loyalty is to a manufacturer.

 

*shrugs*

 

Just curious...  how do you envision that this crossover would work?  If you want to use Stormtroopers in Legion, you'll need to buy either a Core Set or the inevitable Stormtrooper Expansion Pack to get the appropriate unit and upgrade cards.  If you're buying Legion product, you'll have Legion models.  You won't need the IA models.  The only way I see being able to use IA models is to copy the unit cards and find an opponent who will allow it.  I live on the east coast of the US.  I've played in dozens of stores north, south and west from where I live.  I have yet to see a place that would let me bring in print outs of unit or upgrade cards.

It sounds like there is a subset of IA players who are confused and angry as to why FFG expects them to pay money to play an entirely new and different game.  It's an entirely new and different game.  That's it.

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10 hours ago, Nihm said:

Cross over use of miniatures would be an asset for both games.

No it wouldn't.  It would only be an asset to those who already play IA.

Best case is you can use IA mini's in a Legion game.  Which has been said many, many times here that you can for 95% of the games you play.  The only time you couldn't would be at some sort of FFG sponsored event, and even most of those are unlikely to actually make a fuss about it.

Worse case is models that aren't even in Legion yet would have some sort of conversion kit, which would in effect require anyone playing Legion to buy heavily into IA.  This would quite frankly kill the game most likely before it even started.  Because who's going to spend hundreds of dollars on a game that requires you to spend even more money on a different game?

So instead they are simply keeping the two games separate officially, and may even be required to do so due to licensing agreements.   They can't sell IA directly due to those agreements so it may be possible and I'd even guess fairly likely that producing a game that was compatible wouldn't fly.

But don't for a second think making the two games compatible is in anyway a benefit for anyone wanting to get into Legion that doesn't already play IA.

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33 minutes ago, MasterZelgadis said:

How exactly did this transform from a "it should be prepainted" thread to a "meh, I have to actually buy the new game to play it" whine-thread? ;) 

I'm pretty sure this is the core IA/scale complaint.  People seem to want to play the new shiny game without having to pay for the new shiny game.

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I'm not referring to game mechanics...

 

I am not saying anything other then it doesn't make sense. 

 

Let's say GW for example.  They don't change the scale of the minis between a box set themed game and the regular codex games. The space marine I bought 20 years ago can still be used. I'm not trying to troll anyone I'm expressing genuine confusion. Tournament games aside it would have been nice to buy the core set and have it still look reasonable on a house game table that you are using for RPG, Skirmish or full out wargame campaign. 

 

I'm still going to buy the game but probably trade off the 34mm guys to someone  who has 28mm 

 

Be nice, play nice and don't bash someone's post for just expressing their thoughts

Edited by Nihm
Spelling error

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On 9/12/2017 at 0:34 AM, KrisWall said:

Agreed.

For context, I've been involved with Warhammer 40k for about 20 years.  I even worked for Games Workshop (the 40k publisher) for several years.  I'm about as entrenched as you can get.  Having said that, I'll happily shelve 40k if Legion holds up.  It's effectively a Star Wars version of 40k with everything I love and (so far) nothing I hate.  The rules will be cleaner and the publisher will support the game with op kits and championships ranging from store level to world level.

What's not to like?

To answer the original questions...

Unpainted - not an issue at all.  Nobody was born a painter.  Where do you think all the 40k players came from?  At some point, they picked up a brush.  If the models had been prepainted, I think the majority of the traditional war gaming community would have dismissed it as a child's game.  I can't remember the last prepainted game I saw that wasn't generally dismissed by everyone I talked to as a child's game.

Game saturation - not an issue at all.  More games generally means more players.  A smaller slice of a bigger pie is generally better than a big slice of a small pie.

Agreed, I will likeley shelve Warmachine in favour of Legion.  I also concur that pre-painted minis are a double edged sword. Pre-painted may bring in new people to the hobbie but alienate others, that being said I re-paint all my x-wing minis as I love the hobbie aspect as much as i love playing, so each to their own.

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