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Shadow345

Anyone think unpainted and game saturation will hurt Legion?

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We already have 3 Star Wars miniatures games from FFG. X-Wing, Armada and Imperial Assault.

As well as a popular new card game with Destiny.

 

Plus the need to assemble and paint Legion.

 

Do you think this will hamper the success of Legion to gain a player base?

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Not really, it fits in a different space, and as much as there has been a flood of tears over scale and compatibility this is something the forums have been asking for for a while (larger ground battles).

 

Unless it really reinvents the wheel with mechanics (which it wont, it'll be an adapted from one of their other systems) i don't see it as a 40k "killer" as others do (that said if it's priced correctly it can certainly eat some of that market), but i see it as having the potential to be on par/better than armada.

As for the other minatures games. None fill this space, same as none fill Destiny's. As for unpainted, there are already upteen threads debating it's pro's, cons and otherwise. It didn't hurt IA, it won't hurt here.

 

Edit: If anything, i think the hardest bump will be getting the sort of player that likes these type of games to get used to the "cards on the table" list as opposed to a spreadsheet.

Edited by Ralgon

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Totally different game than the ones mentioned.  You'll be surprised how many Table Top War gamers that don't play any of those games will start playing Legion.  Just because someone doesn't like building or painting miniatures you have to think some people want that hobby. To each their own though!

Edited by unxbr3akabl3

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I've definitel heard more 40k players excited about this game than X-wing players. I'm an Armada player and the other Armada people are also excited for Legion. I think there are just different types of players and most of those complaining early on this forum weren't the target type of player.

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The fact that the figures are not pre-painted is most likely a plus when it comes to attracting the target audience (miniature wargamers).  There probably will be some loss of market due to the saturation of SW products FFG puts out.  That said, I believe this will possibly be offset by the attraction this game has for wargamers not already invested in X-Wing or Armada.  Though I was a huge fan of Empire as a kid, I wouldn't describe myself as a SW fan at all.  This game has piqued my interest enough to want to get in.  Whether I do or not will be decided by what is slated for release down the track, though.

 

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It's going to exist in a somewhat different space than X-Wing. And that space probably isn't as big. This isn't a 'sold in Barnes and Noble' level game. I'm from the miniature gamer philosophy that the only thing that truly makes miniature games successful are cool ******* models and fun ******* games.  X-Wing has that, space ship models are awesome, the rules facilitate fun and don't get in the way. Warhammer 40K and Age of Sigmar have that, the models are amazing, and the rules seemingly manage to not ruin the fun, even if they are middling to poor from an objective standpoint. It's still to be seen if these unpainted Star Wars minis have that charm, the base set doesn't.

And that being said, businessmen tell me, your most likely customer is one who's already bought from you, and they'll likely buy something similar to what they've bought before. Which is to say, FFG definitely needs the X-Wing crowd to buy this game. Mass defections from 40K just aren't realistic, and with the prices GW charges most 40K fans are going to think twice about throwing hundreds and hundreds more at a new, unproven game. (Or they might already be broke.) But even if pre-painted figures would help sell the game, that's just not financially realistic. FFG's pre-painted Dust figures went for $8 a guy. That price hasn't gone down because machines still can't paint human figures.

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I can see with the last announcement  of X-Wing's next wave and the price that they are already trying to push people out of it and into this. I'm an ex 40k player with thousands of dollars worth of Tyranid just collecting  dust. While I like the look of this game, I  haven't decided if I'll invest my time in it. I'm kind of over the painting 60 models exactly the same phase. I may pick up a few special characters just to paint them. I could be wrapped up in playing an awesome game out of the box like X-wing.  Sadly in not into playing lifeless colorless figures. We shall see, I'm still undecided.

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Legion is a wargame, not a card game or board game. Wargames get painted. Its comparing two completely different things. Wargames aren't for everyone. They take time, patience, and commitment. Some people are better off sticking to board games if the painting or assembly is a game breaker. I dont like puzzles. So i dont buy them. I especially dont sit on the Internet and complain that puzzles would be cool if i didn't have to sort through it and put it together. Its just silly. Im not saying the OP said this, but theres a ton of this mentality floating around here. Know what you're buying. Even if it has shiny Star Wars logos, its still a specific kind of game that requires a specific kind of player whos willing to put the time in to make their army and battlefield their own. 

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Yes, yes it will.

You can argue all you want about there being different games for different niches, but at the end of the day there will be player overlap and at the end of the day, each player has limited game time/budget. Different niches and types of games are all well and good, but when it first launched, we already saw Destiny cannibalizing the Imperial Assault playerbase in various regions, and I'm sure other Star Wars games took a hit as well.

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3 minutes ago, player1750031 said:

Yes, yes it will.

You can argue all you want about there being different games for different niches, but at the end of the day there will be player overlap and at the end of the day, each player has limited game time/budget. Different niches and types of games are all well and good, but when it first launched, we already saw Destiny cannibalizing the Imperial Assault playerbase in various regions, and I'm sure other Star Wars games took a hit as well.

This is all fine. And maybe its absolutely true. But. You are only talking about existing FFG buyers. There is a virtual ****load of wargame players looking for something new. Some were looking for a SW wargame specificly. Some are interested in new game mechanics. So for every FFG current buyer and supporter of other games that decides not to buy into Legion, theres a bunch of non FFG buyers who will now become one. And yes we all have time and budgets. But games require just those things. Wargames require more than other games. When the dust settles, there will be a boardgame community (I have over $3000 in XWing, and I dont plan on stopping), and a wargame community. This game isnt making anyone choose. Its bringing new players in. Like a positive thing. Not this doom and gloom bull**** that clogs these forums. If you have to sit and think..... "do i want to play a SW wargame?"... theanswer is no. And thats fine. Nobody said anyone has to play everything. I bought the IA core box and went... nope. And moved on. So I welcome all the new gamers to FFG! Lets start a community that thrives on moving forward, being friendly, helping others, and discussing our love of Star Wars and/or miniature wargaming.

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21 minutes ago, AldousSnow said:

Lets start a community that thrives on moving forward, being friendly, helping others, and discussing our love of Star Wars and/or miniature wargaming.

Have you internetted before?

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With Legion, Star Wars fans are getting for the first time, a miniatures game which encourages the creative, hobbyist element. Most war-gamers will tell you, creating terrain and wargames scenery is as much fun, if not more fun, that the actual game play. There's something incredibly rewarding about spending time crafting a beautiful set piece, then eventually using it in a game scenario. A realistic gaming environment, with a textured playing surface and an assortment of realistic scenery will bring the game to life in a way you just can't get with the likes of X Wing and Imperial Assault. 

This is effectively Warhammer 40k for Star Wars fans - Something i've wanted for over 20 years - and I can't be the only one.

Edited by galantini

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59 minutes ago, galantini said:

With Legion, Star Wars fans are getting for the first time, a miniatures game which encourages the creative, hobbyist element. Most war-gamers will tell you, creating terrain and wargames scenery is as much fun, if not more fun, that the actual game play. There's something incredibly rewarding about spending time crafting a beautiful set piece, then eventually using it in a game scenario. A realistic gaming environment, with a textured playing surface and an assortment of realistic scenery will bring the game to life in a way you just can't get with the likes of X Wing and Imperial Assault. 

This is effectively Warhammer 40k for Star Wars fans - Something i've wanted for over 20 years - and I can't be the only one.

Agreed.

For context, I've been involved with Warhammer 40k for about 20 years.  I even worked for Games Workshop (the 40k publisher) for several years.  I'm about as entrenched as you can get.  Having said that, I'll happily shelve 40k if Legion holds up.  It's effectively a Star Wars version of 40k with everything I love and (so far) nothing I hate.  The rules will be cleaner and the publisher will support the game with op kits and championships ranging from store level to world level.

What's not to like?

To answer the original questions...

Unpainted - not an issue at all.  Nobody was born a painter.  Where do you think all the 40k players came from?  At some point, they picked up a brush.  If the models had been prepainted, I think the majority of the traditional war gaming community would have dismissed it as a child's game.  I can't remember the last prepainted game I saw that wasn't generally dismissed by everyone I talked to as a child's game.

Game saturation - not an issue at all.  More games generally means more players.  A smaller slice of a bigger pie is generally better than a big slice of a small pie.

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Got to say, if everyone who was skeptical about painting would just watch those tutorial videos by Sorastro, they'd probably feel a lot more confident about trying their hand at painting.

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work" - Thomas Edison

Edited by galantini

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14 hours ago, Shadow345 said:

We already have 3 Star Wars miniatures games from FFG. X-Wing, Armada and Imperial Assault.

As well as a popular new card game with Destiny.

 

Plus the need to assemble and paint Legion.

 

Do you think this will hamper the success of Legion to gain a player base?

I think FFG is taking a direct shot at GW with this product.  FFG had several GW products and they had a decent working relationship that was making money for both parties.  In return, FFG wasn't releasing anything that was in direct competition with GW.

Once GW pulled out of the deal and left FFG hanging with a ton of developed products that they could no longer produce and sell, they saw no reason to play nice.  I'm sure someone had suggested a game like Legion years ago, but due to dealings with GW, they shelved it.  Once the GW deal ended, they dusted this idea off and got busy playtesting and producing the product.

To that end, I don't think FFG is trying to push this product like X-Wing and Armada.  Or even IA for that matter.  IA is primarily a board game.  It was their response to providing a competitive tactical ground combat game without directly competing with GW.  It appeals to that demographic (casually), as well as appealing to board game and SW fans.  It's a mass market item.  X-wing and to a lesser extend Armada was meant to draw people into miniature gaming.  Bring SW fans into a new-to-them gaming niche.  And it worked.  Had it been any other IP, those two games wouldn't have been nearly as successful.  The IP, coupled with good looking, pre-painted miniatures make for some blockbuster games.

I don't think FFG is positioning Legion to be the same sort of thing.  It will attract some new fans, no doubt about it.  But not as many as it could under other circumstances.  I honestly think FFG is just trying to strip away GW marketshare (and other miniature games).  Using the SW IP, they are likely to strip away GW fans (many of which are rather fed up with GW now days), and they are hoping to pull a few people from other games like War Machine from Privateer Press.  I'm sure they believe they can shore up enough fans to keep the game profitable, but I think the bigger picture is just to damage the fan base of other games.

See, even though X-Wing and Armada are not the same kind of game as Warhammer, 40k, or War Machine, they are categorized the same.  If FFG can pull part of their marketshare, X-wing and Armada look better by comparison.  It positions FFG not only as a major player, but as the top dog in miniature gaming across the board.

I've always wondered how much FFG hurts themselves by competing with themselves.  Rebellion, IA, X-Wing, Armada, LCG, Destiny, and now Legion.  Many of these products are EXPENSIVE to keep up with.  Many players of Armada were previous players of X-Wing who gave up X-wing as they couldn't afford both.  But if the entire fanbase of all the games continues to grow, then the cross over losses aren't that big of a deal I suppose.

As for the paint and assemble part.  Again, its due to the target audience.  X-wing and Armada were aimed at bringing new players into the niche.  IA was aimed more at the boardgamers.  Legion isn't aimed at the casual miniature crowd.  It isn't aimed at the boardgaming crowd.  It's aimed at an already existing market.  Is that the best idea?  Who knows.  They obviously think so.  Maybe they believe they are at maximum saturation and that a pre-painted, pre-assembled mini game would cannibalize on X-wing and Armada too much.  Maybe they just want to target a specific crowd and feel this is the best way to do it.

Would pre-painted, pre-assembled stuff sell better and reach a wider market?  Absolutely.  Is it cost prohibitive? Despite what people here will tell you, it probably isn't.  But obviously it's not something FFG wants to deal with.

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17 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

Would pre-painted, pre-assembled stuff sell better and reach a wider market?  Absolutely.

But it wouldn't. Legion is specifically an attempt to sell to tabletop wargamers. In that market, preassembled/prepainted minis just don't cut it. Assembling (up to a point) and painting minis is a central part of the hobby, wargamers don't see it as an issue or a rip off or added complexity...it's a big part of the reason for enjoying the hobby. Yes, FFG might not bring some of their existing customers to Legion for this reason, but that number will be outnumbered by the wargamers they are looking to attract.

Edited by tuco74

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A big problem I've been seeing is people who play IA think they have to stop playing it to play legion or it's some personal attack on them, when in all reality, they're different games all together. You don't have to buy everything Star Wars related ffg releases. I personally enjoy IA, but understand they're different and I can't wait for legion!

Edited by unxbr3akabl3

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3 hours ago, kmanweiss said:

I think FFG is taking a direct shot at GW with this product.  FFG had several GW products and they had a decent working relationship that was making money for both parties.  In return, FFG wasn't releasing anything that was in direct competition with GW.

Once GW pulled out of the deal and left FFG hanging with a ton of developed products that they could no longer produce and sell, they saw no reason to play nice.  I'm sure someone had suggested a game like Legion years ago, but due to dealings with GW, they shelved it.  Once the GW deal ended, they dusted this idea off and got busy playtesting and producing the product.

To that end, I don't think FFG is trying to push this product like X-Wing and Armada.  Or even IA for that matter.  IA is primarily a board game.  It was their response to providing a competitive tactical ground combat game without directly competing with GW.  It appeals to that demographic (casually), as well as appealing to board game and SW fans.  It's a mass market item.  X-wing and to a lesser extend Armada was meant to draw people into miniature gaming.  Bring SW fans into a new-to-them gaming niche.  And it worked.  Had it been any other IP, those two games wouldn't have been nearly as successful.  The IP, coupled with good looking, pre-painted miniatures make for some blockbuster games.

I don't think FFG is positioning Legion to be the same sort of thing.  It will attract some new fans, no doubt about it.  But not as many as it could under other circumstances.  I honestly think FFG is just trying to strip away GW marketshare (and other miniature games).  Using the SW IP, they are likely to strip away GW fans (many of which are rather fed up with GW now days), and they are hoping to pull a few people from other games like War Machine from Privateer Press.  I'm sure they believe they can shore up enough fans to keep the game profitable, but I think the bigger picture is just to damage the fan base of other games.

See, even though X-Wing and Armada are not the same kind of game as Warhammer, 40k, or War Machine, they are categorized the same.  If FFG can pull part of their marketshare, X-wing and Armada look better by comparison.  It positions FFG not only as a major player, but as the top dog in miniature gaming across the board.

I've always wondered how much FFG hurts themselves by competing with themselves.  Rebellion, IA, X-Wing, Armada, LCG, Destiny, and now Legion.  Many of these products are EXPENSIVE to keep up with.  Many players of Armada were previous players of X-Wing who gave up X-wing as they couldn't afford both.  But if the entire fanbase of all the games continues to grow, then the cross over losses aren't that big of a deal I suppose.

As for the paint and assemble part.  Again, its due to the target audience.  X-wing and Armada were aimed at bringing new players into the niche.  IA was aimed more at the boardgamers.  Legion isn't aimed at the casual miniature crowd.  It isn't aimed at the boardgaming crowd.  It's aimed at an already existing market.  Is that the best idea?  Who knows.  They obviously think so.  Maybe they believe they are at maximum saturation and that a pre-painted, pre-assembled mini game would cannibalize on X-wing and Armada too much.  Maybe they just want to target a specific crowd and feel this is the best way to do it.

Would pre-painted, pre-assembled stuff sell better and reach a wider market?  Absolutely.  Is it cost prohibitive? Despite what people here will tell you, it probably isn't.  But obviously it's not something FFG wants to deal with.

They capture market share.  ALL of it hits their profit margins so end of day not really competing with self.  Taking share from competition be it through X-Wing or Armanda or IA or, now, Legion ... 

Wider array of offerings to the gaming and, now, hobby community

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IMO the only way unpainted will hurt this game is if the rules are good enough to attract many x-wing/armada players of the kind that would play but not paint their armies.

 

If there's too much grey Stormtroopers vs. grey Rebels (especially since AFAIK FFG won't require painted armies for tournaments AFAIK), this might piss off the more traditional wargamers.

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If the expectation is that people who like X-wing because of how simple and accessible it is to suddenly start playing legion, then yes, it will have an impact. If you expect your typical miniatures gamer to not care because they are a miniature gamer, then no, it will have no impact.

The truth is, it is Star Wars, which means a lot of non-miniature gamers will pick it up. They will however drop it after a while since they don't have the time/desire/patience for a miniature game. A few however will stick with it.

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I know there's is a lot of excitement in my area for this. I can share my own experience. I started gaming with prepainted games like Heroclix and SWMlargely because of the IPs and the fact they were prepainted. After moving to an area where 40k was what was mostly being played, I started playing 40k. The local players really helped with teaching me how to paint, which made starting much less intimidating. However I only played for about 3 years because of GW's policies and price structure. 

For the last year and a half, I've been exclusively playing X-Wing. With the recent changes GW has made, I was seriously considering getting back into 40k. I have the time and budget for about two games, and was missing the large scale ground combat that 40k provided. I had considered IA, but it wasn't really what I wanted. Legion fits exactly what I want, better than 40k even. It helps that I was introduced to painting through 40k and find it much less intimidating than it used to be. Now I see it has a positive instead of a negative. I can see a lot of others being more willing to give war gaming a try despite the unpainted nature of figures just because of the IP.

Basically, my own experience leads me to believe that Legion does fill a vacant place in the war gaming market. I think the best thing FFG can do to attract players is to make the painting more accessible. It helps that painting Stormtroopers should be really easy!

Edited by Darth 2Face

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4 hours ago, kmanweiss said:

I think FFG is taking a direct shot at GW with this product.  FFG had several GW products and they had a decent working relationship that was making money for both parties.  In return, FFG wasn't releasing anything that was in direct competition with GW.

Once GW pulled out of the deal and left FFG hanging with a ton of developed products that they could no longer produce and sell, they saw no reason to play nice.  I'm sure someone had suggested a game like Legion years ago, but due to dealings with GW, they shelved it.  Once the GW deal ended, they dusted this idea off and got busy playtesting and producing the product.

To that end, I don't think FFG is trying to push this product like X-Wing and Armada.  Or even IA for that matter.  IA is primarily a board game.  It was their response to providing a competitive tactical ground combat game without directly competing with GW.  It appeals to that demographic (casually), as well as appealing to board game and SW fans.  It's a mass market item.  X-wing and to a lesser extend Armada was meant to draw people into miniature gaming.  Bring SW fans into a new-to-them gaming niche.  And it worked.  Had it been any other IP, those two games wouldn't have been nearly as successful.  The IP, coupled with good looking, pre-painted miniatures make for some blockbuster games.

I don't think FFG is positioning Legion to be the same sort of thing.  It will attract some new fans, no doubt about it.  But not as many as it could under other circumstances.  I honestly think FFG is just trying to strip away GW marketshare (and other miniature games).  Using the SW IP, they are likely to strip away GW fans (many of which are rather fed up with GW now days), and they are hoping to pull a few people from other games like War Machine from Privateer Press.  I'm sure they believe they can shore up enough fans to keep the game profitable, but I think the bigger picture is just to damage the fan base of other games.

See, even though X-Wing and Armada are not the same kind of game as Warhammer, 40k, or War Machine, they are categorized the same.  If FFG can pull part of their marketshare, X-wing and Armada look better by comparison.  It positions FFG not only as a major player, but as the top dog in miniature gaming across the board.

I've always wondered how much FFG hurts themselves by competing with themselves.  Rebellion, IA, X-Wing, Armada, LCG, Destiny, and now Legion.  Many of these products are EXPENSIVE to keep up with.  Many players of Armada were previous players of X-Wing who gave up X-wing as they couldn't afford both.  But if the entire fanbase of all the games continues to grow, then the cross over losses aren't that big of a deal I suppose.

As for the paint and assemble part.  Again, its due to the target audience.  X-wing and Armada were aimed at bringing new players into the niche.  IA was aimed more at the boardgamers.  Legion isn't aimed at the casual miniature crowd.  It isn't aimed at the boardgaming crowd.  It's aimed at an already existing market.  Is that the best idea?  Who knows.  They obviously think so.  Maybe they believe they are at maximum saturation and that a pre-painted, pre-assembled mini game would cannibalize on X-wing and Armada too much.  Maybe they just want to target a specific crowd and feel this is the best way to do it.

Would pre-painted, pre-assembled stuff sell better and reach a wider market?  Absolutely.  Is it cost prohibitive? Despite what people here will tell you, it probably isn't.  But obviously it's not something FFG wants to deal with.

Okay, first can we ditch the assumption that big, bad GW pulled the rug out from under poor little FFG on the licensing thing? From what I've heard it was either FFG's choice not to continue to keep paying GW for their licenses, or at most a mutual parting of the ways. RuneWars was the first foray into GW territory, and that came out suspiciously soon after the announcement of the end of the GW/FFG licensing agreement. If you think either RW or Legion was designed from scratch in that timeframe I think you're seriously underestimating the lead in time for this kind of product.

Neither Legion or RW are intended as some weird kind of vendetta against GW, it's just a different sector of the gaming industry that FFG think that have something to offer. Why not?!

So in answer to the OP's question, will unpainted figures hurt Legion's sales? Yes. But then...

- Rebellion hurt its sales by being a traditional 2 player boardgame

- X-Wing hurt its sales by having funny shaped dice

- Armada hurt its sales by having card-based upgrades

- Destiny hurt its sales by being a CCG

- Star Wars the card game hurt its sales by being an LCG

The point I'm making is that there's no such thing as the optimal decision. Every decision will include or alienate a sector of the wider gaming community. I love Star Wars, but I personally wouldn't touch Destiny *or* the LCG with a barge pole, because they're not my thing. Legion is reaching parts of that gaming community that no other product in their range does. That makes sense, right? I know people will be put off by unpainted models that need assembly, but to take that personal opinion and extrapolate that FFG are making a massive mistake is wrong. If you're on the FFG boards and posting, they probably don't need to try very hard to sell you stuff. It's all the people busy posting over on the 40k and Warmachine/Hordes websites they're trying to reach with this.

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