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BillyBabel

why would rebels ever agree to the starting unit set up in the expansion?

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One of the first steps is "players must agree whether to use the starting unit list from the base game or rise of the empire" 

If both players are playing to win, I can understand why the empire would pick it. The death star has been buffed quite a bit, and it's delayed, but in exchange they start the game out with an extra probe card, and the ability to build on a remote planet of their choice like it was populous. On top of that he gains 2 tie strikers without losing anything and he loses one at-st for 2 tanks. The empire gets a clear upgrade over the base game, starting with the same everything and gaining 2 tie strikers and 1 storm trooper, and losing 1 at st and having it replace with 2 tanks. 

The rebels on the other hand lose an x-wing and a y-wing for one u-wing. That seems like a terrible trade off. you lose one red die, one black die and one health for a green die. 

This seems like a terrible deal for the rebels. They lose 2 triangle units for 1 triangle unit that does a worse job than the two it replaces. Why would the rebels ever agree to this if they are trying their best to win.

Edited by BillyBabel

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Well that is true,  but you're assuming that the rebels will let you have it a shield Generator there,  they can just sabotage it away, for the first three turns  of the game the Death Star under construction is a giant 4 hit point target for the rebels thus thinning out the rest of the Empire's forces

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unless they just put extra forces there. The forces that start there are a minimum, you can still put more tie fighters, storm troopers etc. Also since he has stuff there he can just keep putting down more shield generators every build phase. It's not that difficult to defend. Also just keep darth vader in reserve to contest and one other character on capture and you have a very easy capture after someone attempts to sabotage. 

Edited by BillyBabel

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Sure you can do it like that but if you choose to do it like that you need to have the leaders to move any of your other forces thus extending the time of the game for the rebels to build their fleets and give the rebels more time to win, plus the rebels get to deploy and choose their base after you place the dust are under construction figure they just put it on the other side of the board and if you don't have the leaders to move there to check because you're too worried about the Death Star then the Empire's already at a disadvantage

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but the empire assigns leaders after the rebels. If the rebels put a bunch of units next to the death star then keep a leader back, if they don't then don't keep a leader back, it's no skin off the empire's nose. The empire is much better off being able to search one less planet and being able to threaten mon calamari, or any of the other major planets near a remote planet. 

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On ‎9‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 4:20 PM, BillyBabel said:

while the shield generator is there from the set up the planet behaves like populous system. 

The Shield Bunker isn't there from set up because there is no Shield Bunker in the list of at-start units. Also, you can't use it to deploy units there on the turn that the Shield Bunker is placed. The earliest you could produce a Shield Bunker is at the end of turn 1, which means you couldn't use it to deploy more units until the end of Turn 2. So to protect your Death Star Under Construction (or DSUC), you're going to have to deploy units from your at-start forces.

So what does that the RotE deployment do to the Empire?

First of all, you have much less starting lift capacity to employ a strategy of area denial to the Rebels. In the standard set-up, you can use each of your 3 star destroyers plus the Death Star as a task force to spread out and leave behind subjugated worlds. In the RotE deployment, the Imperials can set up just 3 task forces, and they are unlikely to be able to move to 4 until turn three.

Second, not only do the Imperials have fewer mobile task forces to employ, but they have a liability to defend: the DSUC. The DSUC is vulnerable to attack, especially on turn two or three. Note how distant most of the remote systems are from most of the possible starting Imperial words. If the Alliance can get some fighters into production on turn one and get a nice draw of "Plan the Assault" or good initial Rebel fleet placement, the Imperials could lose the Death Star. I expect THAT is why the Imperials get a couple of extra fighters in the form of TIE Strikers. It's probably also why the Rebels get one less fighter.

So I think both sides are less capable, overall, at the start of the RotE deployment. The Rebels are a little weaker, and the Empire is slightly more vulnerable. So the choice comes down to how starting planets are situated for each. Also, the presence of the new units in the force pool from the beginning means that any combat that does happen can use the powerful effects of the advanced tactic cards.

 

Edited by RobertK

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I think Robert has put together a nice evaluation of the starting units and what it means.

I have to say, I haven't played the expansion yet, but I tend to ignore the use of the Death Star as the Imps in the base game.  I almost never blow up systems, and it's only good for bullying for the first couple turns.  After that, the risks outweigh the gains of using it.  I think I'd prefer the new startup, and I'd just use the DSUC as bait to make the rebels waste time and effort going after the DSUC.  Let them waste precious actions destroying the DSUC for no gain while I'm marauding around the galaxy.

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You should also take under consideration that under the RotE deployment rules the Rebel is allowed to deploy in the rebel base as well as in a rebel OR neutral system. That is a huge advantage, because now the rebel forces can deploy more or less anywhere. Under the standard rules most of the time the rebel player had the choice between putting his forces in an imperial death zone or out of the action.

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6 hours ago, Shub-Schumann said:

You should also take under consideration that under the RotE deployment rules the Rebel is allowed to deploy in the rebel base as well as in a rebel OR neutral system. That is a huge advantage, because now the rebel forces can deploy more or less anywhere. Under the standard rules most of the time the rebel player had the choice between putting his forces in an imperial death zone or out of the action.

Are you talking about starting placement rules for Rebel units? Because they're the same in base game and in expansion: "Rebel Base" space and/or 1 Rebel or neutral system. (With the exception of DSUC's system in expansion.)

Edited by Bron Ander Haltern

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It's disadvantageous to the Rebels.

They can't take out the DSUC on turn one unless the Empire lets them - the Rebels would have to throw in most of their fleet, even if the Empire didn't reinforce the 4 starting TIEs on set up.  Best case for the Rebels is that they lose half their starting fleet, and now 2 of their objective cards are completely useless.

The "stretched" Empire argument doesn't hold up.  There will always be one weaker starting system for the Imperials even in the base game.  The Rebels don't have the resources to attack more than one; with the new rules, sneak attacks are much harder than before.  The Empire is now positioned to take Utapau or any Rebel starting system (except Mon Calamari in rare games) on turn one.

 

I think the new set up would have been more balanced if the Imperials had to do the DSUC set up on a random remote system rather than picking it; and that they couldn't increase the starting "bodyguard" units to use this as a base to move off from.

Edited by Patriarch

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Have to agree with Patriarch. The ability to place the DSUC and an invasion fleet on Dagobah, for a first turn move to take Utapau or Mustafar (depending on what you draw, and where Rebels place their fleet) is very strong. It cuts out what was a major Rebel grab option that the imps couldn't reach turn 1. Also threatens Naboo (which is important depending on where imps/rebels draw).

Keep in mind, if the rebels make any opening gambits, you know very quickly how much defense you need on DSUC. If they don't... well you don't really care anyway. Honestly keeping the DSUC is less important than taking 2 moves and safe planets from the rebels by the early start position. Not to mention the imps had to drag to Utapau... which cost them 2 fleet moves. Now it's very easy for the empire to have Loyalty in Utapau first turn.

Now maybe that was the point from the designers. Utapau could have been *too good* for the rebels, and it resulted in static first turn grabs. Not sure.

Also if you happen to draw really bad starting spots, you can position DSUC on Yavin or Dathomir to make up for it... and yes one more starting probe matters a lot, especially on a remote system.

We've played a good bit at work, and new start (and a good imp player) does seem more difficult on the rebels. Also... keep in mind the Green dice don't remove hits. So trading in for a green unit is tough with the limited rebel start. And destroying the DSUC doesn't actually award points. ;-)

 

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In my playing group, we have agreed that the Empire will always decides about the initial set-up. If they go with the expansion setup, rebels must do that too. The set up being chosen after we know the five imperial starting systems, and the three rebellion ones, it allows the Empire to plug a "coverage" hole by choosing to over-extend a bit from the start and make the selection of the rebel base more difficult. It is a double-edged sword though...

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