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L5R getting heat after SU&SD Review

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10 minutes ago, Daigotsu Steve said:

Sometimes it has to be said. There is a danger is taking these people seriously. Not to say every single instance of this kind of thing is without merit, and that certain conversations aren't worth having, but inserting political agenda and attempting to enforce civic virtues in the comment thread of a review of a card game? Nah.

Everything involving interacting with human behavior is inherently political, because politics is the action of moderating our behavior.

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2 minutes ago, Yogo Gohei said:

None of these people have given any indication, whatsoever, that they are being insulted or offended.  No one that is creating the game / chanting / cosplaying is doing it in a way that is intended to cause offense.  The only Asian person I have seen that was offended by any of this is in the SUSD comment thread, and his issues stem from an apparent deep hatred of the Japanese, and not anything inherent in the card game / pageantry.

If no one is intending to offend, an no one is actually being offended, what is the point of being offended on someone else's behalf?  It's absurd.

I'd agree with your analysis of the individual on the Shut Up & Sit Down board based on his complaints vs. overall use of banzai across the world. He was very...determined in that thread, and could have presented his complaints in a more useful format.

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There is more discussion on the L5R community Facebook group, if people are looking for more voices. The discussion thread is locked though. But it seems more than one person does care. 

Edited by PiebeatsCake
Derp

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"Everything is political" might be a conclusion to which one can argue (i.e., it is arguable), but it certainly is not a fact and neither is it a suitable premise for the conclusion that fantasy settings require interpretation via (whatever) IRL political ideology.

@Gaffa Pendragon is a great example of an immersive RPG setting/game design. (Blue Rose, not so much - although I think it asks its players to go deeper than, say, D&D. But the same is true of, for example, World of Darkness.) I still think L5R is unique in that the CCG created more community identity/solidarity over space and time than anything I have seen with RPGs. That definitely goes for the story game movement.

Edited by Manchu

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1 hour ago, Gaffa said:

Solipism is not exactly a useful refuge to box yourself into, friend. But have fun in your vacation.

Yes. Facts and truth are solipsism. Who is boxing themselves in again?

Explains why you lied about that I said, at least.

Edited by InquisitorM

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28 minutes ago, Gaffa said:

Solipism is not exactly a useful refuge to box yourself into, friend. But have fun in your vacation.

Why would exactly his (InquisitorM's) position be solipsistic? Could you explain?

 

23 minutes ago, Gaffa said:

Everything involving interacting with human behavior is inherently political, because politics is the action of moderating our behavior.

I think you're confusing social sciences with politics. Politics, as it is used in common parlance, concerns specifically the form of government adopted by human societies; as such, it is a subset of social sciences. The usage of the term includes matters concerning specific governments (i.e. historical states and nations), so it is used properly when talking about, for example, whether or not one approves of early 20th century Japan, but it is not used properly when referencing more generic human behaviour (like saying that incest between parents and their offspring is considered a taboo in the vast majority of human societies).

In this particular situation, it seems like some people are supposedly taking the Banzai! chant as an endorsment for Japan's policy. I think what Daigotsu Steve was getting at in his post, the way I understand it, is that it is clear from the context in which the chant happens - which is social but not political - that the meaning itself was also not political; therefore, it seems like any assumption towards a different interpretation is misguided at best.

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1 hour ago, PiebeatsCake said:

There is more discussion on the L5R community Facebook group, if people are looking for more voices. The discussion thread is locked though. But it seems more than one person does care. 

Well the L5R Community Facebook group is full of degenerates, ours is the better discussion from a higher moral ground.  CONTINUE FIRING UNTIL WE BLOT OUT THE SUN!

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1 hour ago, Gaffa said:

I read both threads, here and at Shut Up & Sit Down, in their entirety. I have yet to find accusations of "white knighting" or "virtue signalling" that are not themselves symptoms of name calling in an attempt to just belittle another position.

Fair enough.  Are the accusations necessarily bad, or do positions justify belittling?   If someone is posturing, is it less helpful overall in a given situation to call it out or let it be? An idea without merit left unchecked will not necessarily be seen for what it is.  Some positions are better than others. Some positions deserve to be insulted.  Granted, one wins more flies with honey, but I don't know how many people taking opposed views are trying to make friends in a comments section or thread.

 

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14 hours ago, sndwurks said:

As someone writing pretty much an entire article for my blog about Cultural Appropriation and L5R, I find all this discussion interesting.

The skinny on my opinion? Wong's problem with the Banzai cheer is fair, and he has every right to be upset by it. However, L5R is a game which CELEBRATES Japanese military traditions, and if you have a problem with the Banzai cheer, well... let me tell you about Yobanjin Mura, the Colonies, and just what the Kami did when they arrived in Rokugan... I promise you, there's a LOT more to get upset about and maybe L5R is not a game for you if you do not like samurai.

For the Banzai cheer itself... eh? I am not tied to it precisely. But having something to shout at the start of a tournament does create a powerful sense of community and togetherness with the other people who broke their voices doing so. Do I need it for my organized play? No, but I would miss it if it were not there.

Right?! Let's not even get started on the Rokugani caste system and how samurai are basically merciless, bloodthirsty aristocrats who won't hesitate to murder hapless peasants for looking at them funny (or really just looking at them, period).

...and before everyone jumps down my throat, I love L5R (SO MUCH!) but I think it's important to recognize the *** things about the culture it portrays even if they are 'accurate'. I know I purse my lips a bit at anyone who goes all starry-eyed and romanticizes the setting too much and wants to live there or whatever.

 

EDIT: Just to add, I don't agree with everything that's being said here, but I am so, so pleased with how this discussion is going and how comparatively civil it is. Not once I have seen someone rage about "PC/political correctness" or use the term "snowflake" or bring political affiliation into it. Thanks for still being decent folks, L5R community.

Like, even the folks I disagree with I feel like if I met you in person we'd have no trouble hashing this out over a drink.

Edited by theninthguardian

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5 minutes ago, theninthguardian said:

Right?! Let's not even get started on the Rokugani caste system and how samurai are basically merciless, bloodthirsty aristocrats who won't hesitate to murder hapless peasants for looking at them funny (or really just looking at them, period).

...and before everyone jumps down my throat, I love L5R (SO MUCH!) but I think it's important to recognize the *** things about the culture it portrays even if they are 'accurate'. I know I purse my lips a bit at anyone who goes all starry-eyed and romanticizes the setting too much and wants to live there or whatever.

Oh I agree completely (and I've been playing the RPG in the setting since 2002), but it inhabits a world where a vast majority of people are in fact slaves and we play the oppressors, and the ones who are compassionate towards said people are considered weak, they are a horribly racist and xenophobic people, and everyone dies young.  Remember, 30 is old!

The only thing that even resembles something in a ideal society is that they decided to forgo gender inequalities (for the most part, and that was ret-conned in).

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52 minutes ago, Mirith said:

Oh I agree completely (and I've been playing the RPG in the setting since 2002), but it inhabits a world where a vast majority of people are in fact slaves and we play the oppressors, and the ones who are compassionate towards said people are considered weak, they are a horribly racist and xenophobic people, and everyone dies young.  Remember, 30 is old!

The only thing that even resembles something in a ideal society is that they decided to forgo gender inequalities (for the most part, and that was ret-conned in).

:D:):D:):D:):D:):D:):D:):D:):D:):D:):D:):D:):D:):D:):D:):D

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So for real though... why is this "discussion" still going? For like 3 pages now (and I'm totally guilty of it too) no one has offered something that wasn't one of the 3 already brought up points worded differently;

"Banzi isn't offensive, but it does establish a sense of community!"
"You can't decide what offends people!"
"I just don't like loud noises."

I'm sure FFG has heard about it already and is talking about it internally. Chances are this much heat is going to get it pulled no matter how much some of us like it or don't.

Well there's a fourth "point" but it's to call people "SJW" and other names so I'm not counting it.

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26 minutes ago, llamaman88 said:

So for real though... why is this "discussion" still going? For like 3 pages now (and I'm totally guilty of it too) no one has offered something that wasn't one of the 3 already brought up points worded differently;

"Banzi isn't offensive, but it does establish a sense of community!"
"You can't decide what offends people!"
"I just don't like loud noises."

I'm sure FFG has heard about it already and is talking about it internally. Chances are this much heat is going to get it pulled no matter how much some of us like it or don't.

Well there's a fourth "point" but it's to call people "SJW" and other names so I'm not counting it.

Do you supposed the person who wrote this article included the Appendix B as a way to gain impressions and interactions?  Quintin Smith typically gets 50-100 comments per article, this one is at over 350!  They don't show the article view / like / share count, but I imagine that is much higher than other articles relative to the amount of comments considering how the response on this one dwarfs their other pieces and they cut off comments while it was obviously still receiving a surge of posts.

(appendix b was a lie)

Edited by shosuko

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11 hours ago, Gaffa said:

Everything involving interacting with human behavior is inherently political, because politics is the action of moderating our behavior.

That sounds clever, and you say it with such pithy succinctness as to make it sound like a fact, but it definitely isn't. Parties? Hobby events? Navigating a friendly or romantic relationship? I would say politics is the act of 'governing' human behaviour, which is stronger then simply moderating it. The person at the head of my jiujitsu class moderates the behaviour of our class but he hasn't been voted in and doesn't govern us, nor should he. Politics also has a way bigger scope than simply being definable by a single action.

But yeah, I disagree with that premise entirely and I basically disregard it.

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16 hours ago, llamaman88 said:

So for real though... why is this "discussion" still going? For like 3 pages now (and I'm totally guilty of it too) no one has offered something that wasn't one of the 3 already brought up points worded differently;

"Banzi isn't offensive, but it does establish a sense of community!"
"You can't decide what offends people!"
"I just don't like loud noises."

...or crowds!  Don't forget the dislike of crowds!

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20 hours ago, Manchu said:

"Everything is political" is usually (as here) deployed in near-automatic response to "don't insert your politics into my [fiction/game]."

The sad thing is that the "don't insert your politics into my [fiction/game]!" screech usually* comes in response and opposition to "what if we stop being @ssholes to other people?". Or by people wanting only THEIR politics in the [fiction/game] in question, not everybody else's.

So... yeah.

 

 

* By "usually" I actually mean "always".

Edited by Mirumoto Saito

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26 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Breaking fake-news:

There will be a BAN......zai on chanting UTZ/BANZAI at future L5R events!

Surely someone has used this pun within the last 8 pages.

If not, shame on all of you.

 

You are fired, you will be escorted from the building.

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Wait till the game officially recognizes punning with some new Character or card that specifically rewards the player with the best/worst puns. Say the player recognized by a neutral party as making the best pun gets a bonus in political combat that turn :)

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