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GILLIES291

Time to Reverse the Palpatine Nerf?

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H3LL NO.

 

Why do people keep asking for this? It's riddiculous. FFG, please, force us to run a lambda shuttle in every f'ing list again!

 

Palp was a broken card. Now it's just very strong- a solid chunk of imp lists in nationals+ top cuts run Palpatine. Mostly on RAC, but ve had a palp shuttle in top32 at US nationals literally last weekend.

 

With that stupid BS NPE gone, they can finally give some new toys to imps- it just takes time.

 

As far as rebels and scum having some broken stuff, it's just a matter of nerfing the strongest lists. Then will we have balance.

 

Edited by Elavion

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58 minutes ago, PT106 said:

I'm an Imperial player and I would hate to see Palpatine nerf to be reversed, as it would effectively nerf all future Imperial ships in the lists that do not bring Palpatine (the same way Biggs currently limits Rebel ships design space). I think that the nerf was correct in identifying and fixing a problem and the only possible change to Palp card is a cost change (however it is very unlikely to happen for obvious reasons).

The idea that before the nerf every Imperial squad was a Palp squad is a myth that I've already debunked in other posts, so I'll just say: it's a myth, in that it's not true, in that it's false, in that it's a misconstruction, in that it's a lie. If anything, the backup of a pre-nerf Palpatine would give Empire the room to field ships that are not the three it currently fields. There was more diversity back then, both within and outside the Palp Aces archetype.

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3 minutes ago, Mward1984 said:

I *still* to this day don't know what the point of the nerf that disallowed you to spend more than one evade token per defence roll was. Did one of the game devs just REALLY REALLY REALLY HATE Laetin Ashera?

Just a theory, but probably something to do with Jan Ors crew and recon specialist combined with certain ships that would lead to game breaking shenanigans. Or it was to keep a lid on attani.

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"Let's get imperials back on track by restricting list building in such a way that they can only be competitive when they take 1 specific upgrade, which only 3 specific ships have access to! Yay!"

 

Or, here's a novel idea- how about we fix the other issue cards in the other factions so they can enjoy parity similar to what the imperial faction is now?

Edited by Kdubb

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6 minutes ago, Kumagoro said:

The idea that before the nerf every Imperial squad was a Palp squad is a myth.

I never stated that. What I stated is that the absence of Palp nerf would lead to nerfing of the future Imperial ships so they wouldn't be too powerful with Palpatine on the board.

 

6 minutes ago, Kumagoro said:

If anything, the backup of a pre-nerf Palpatine would give Empire the room to field ships that are not the three it currently fields. There was more diversity back then, both within and outside the Palp Aces archetype.

Three? Really? Tie/SF, Tie Defender, Decimator, Tie Advanced, Tie/AP, Tie/FO,  Tie Bomber, Lambda shuttle, Tie Agressor. Should be more then three.

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10 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Just a theory, but probably something to do with Jan Ors crew and recon specialist combined with certain ships that would lead to game breaking shenanigans. Or it was to keep a lid on attani.

 

Jan Ors only works once per round though. Yeah a PTL A-Wing can double Evade by focusing + evading, but none of his buddies can, and at the end of the day outside of that one Cruise/Procket shot, when was the last time you saw an A-Wing contributing in this game?

 

It literally made Lando (crew) completely useless, not just mostly useless/uncompetitive but a complete waste of cardboard, and that was a card designed by Championship Winner as well.

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11 minutes ago, Mward1984 said:

 

So, would it just be the Stress Limitation for the X7 nerf, or does that include the No Bumps and No Overlapping Asteroids part? Conversely, what about the reverse?

I've often felt a lot of the attempts to put the Genie that is the Jump back into the bottle by FFG have been very hamfisted and often nerfed other things more than their targets.

I *still* to this day don't know what the point of the nerf that disallowed you to spend more than one evade token per defence roll was. Did one of the game devs just REALLY REALLY REALLY HATE Laetin Ashera?

For the x7 nerf, I have always been of the opinion that it went one step too far. I believe it should have been either made a free action, or given the overlaping clause. While discarding either could work, I feel removing the free action wording (thus removing the vulnerablity to stess) is a little more in spirit for the idea behind it and ensures that stressgivers aren't the answer to everything.

Yeah, the attempts to nerf the Jumpmaster haven't been all that great, but at least something was tried. We don't even have that in the Empire's time of need.

I sort of see the reasoning behind the one evade a turn rule. 

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My main reason for wanting to see a reversal is so we can get more glorious Hipposhuttlebuses back in this game. 

My main reason for not wanting to see the reversal is so the Empire can get actual upgrades and fixes for it's rapidly aging armada: Lambda (no update), Firespray (no update), tie fighters (no update), advanced and interceptors (updates that were 2 metas late when they came and still not enough), phantom (give us great names pilots, a title, and a reason to take somthing other than ACD).

 

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3 minutes ago, Rakky Wistol said:

My main reason for wanting to see a reversal is so we can get more glorious Hipposhuttlebuses back in this game. 

My main reason for not wanting to see the reversal is so the Empire can get actual upgrades and fixes for it's rapidly aging armada: Lambda (no update), Firespray (no update), tie fighters (no update), advanced and interceptors (updates that were 2 metas late when they came and still not enough), phantom (give us great names pilots, a title, and a reason to take somthing other than ACD).

 

 

Some of those are at least getting used. The Imp. Firespray needs a buff for sure though, as does the Interceptor, but if they're gonna get one it's going to be through other expansions instead of a dedicated Veterans/Heroes/Aces box. Like how Autothrusters was.

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Outside of VI+ACD Whisper and new experiements with PS 11 alpha strike Vader what on that list is getting used?

 

lambdas: palp carriers only.  Pretty much ever.  Vader crew buzzsaws a little before that. Never been updated.

Tie fighter: has fallen so far down the ranks of efficiency that the swarm is dead. Never been updated.

Firespray: imperial version has been a joke since release.  Wave 2 saw some use.  Never been updated. 

Interceptor: Soontir and Canor are dead. Even before the powercreep no other interceptors were used.  Probably the worst "Aces Pack" ever. 

Advanced: Vader is a very small light in the dark and suffers the same as Soontir, Biggs, and Corran- Almost too good so no other pilots are used and the ship as a whole can't get an easy fix at the risk of breaking them.

phantom: ACD is still probably the worst design choice in the faction.  VI is required to make it functional and so powerful there really is no other option. I would never suggest a reversal of the Phantom nerf but would love new pilots and options to build a competitive (even tier 2 build) phantom that didn't start with 2 of my slots full already. 

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42 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Just a theory, but probably something to do with Jan Ors crew and recon specialist combined with certain ships that would lead to game breaking shenanigans. Or it was to keep a lid on attani.

It was a result of tightening up the rules. I doubt they had any specific combo in mind, but if they did, it was the RecSpec "SpendFocusAacquireTargetLockSpendTargetLockSpendFocusAcquireTargetLock" Dengar. Which was actually a really fun build to run, I did actually learn how to say that whole sentence on one breath. :P

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Idea:

Let's all refuse to use the nerfed Emperor. The card has the pre-nerf text on it anyway. Rebel against the rules! 

Oh, wait, crap, I'm an Imperial. Rebellions aren't my thing. I stick with Bellator Battlecruisers, not civil wars against a gaming company.

And I STILL don't have a Lambda. Not that I'm missing anything.

Edited by Celestial Lizards

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1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Never on undoing the x/7 nerf.  It's entirely fair to ask that a Defender avoid bumps and asteroids and clear stress in order to get their free evade.  Blocking and forcing people onto rocks should remain a viable strategy.  Of course, K4 Security Droid and Genius and maybe a few other effects ought to receive the same nerf.

K4 costs you three points, but you get PAID 2 points to take X/7. That is a 5 POINT difference! I agree on genius though.

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1 hour ago, PT106 said:

I'm an Imperial player and I would hate to see Palpatine nerf to be reversed, as it would effectively nerf all future Imperial ships in the lists that do not bring Palpatine (the same way Biggs currently limits Rebel ships design space). I think that the nerf was correct in identifying and fixing a problem and the only possible change to Palp card is a cost change (however it is very unlikely to happen for obvious reasons).

It could probably stand a 2 point cost reduction with the ability as is. 

I think the nerf was spot on.

Does Biggs need more work... yes.

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1 hour ago, NoShieldsAllGuts said:

Imperials need Sabine.

I know this has been the talk as of late, but how about the Imperials go more "technical" on the issue? A modification for throwing evade dice vs bombs, maybe? I feel that would be a decent way to go, too.

But on a general note, isn't the meta rather hitpoint-dependant right now? Maybe it's time to let dodging catch up with the aggressive potential.

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2 hours ago, GILLIES291 said:

Alright so full disclosure I'm primarily a Rebels player, while my wife is Empire for life. Both of us think scum and random no name ships being way better than the movie ships is fairly dumb. That being said:

 

So Rebels versus Rebels in the final. And if you check the standings, Scum as usual is also dominating at the top tables with Dengar/Nym. And all the while the Imperials slowly slip down even further. 

Lots of great fixes have been suggested, fixed PS of 9, bombs unable to be dropped if you are stressed, Aces pack with Interceptors getting two EPTs or Auththrusters for bombs, nerfing the new brokenness (which even though we like this idea, isn't realistic because FFG wants to make money and wants to sell the new hotness), and many more.

But something I really think should have happened a long time ago, to fix a change that never should have happened in the first place, is to reverse the nerf on Palpatine.

 

Most people agree that it was such an unneeded nerf for the following reasons:

-He is the most expensive crew in the game

-requires two slots so you can only put him on large ships and even then can't bring anything else on them (except for RAC builds)

-pretty much guarantees you have one ship out of the fight so your aces are fighting on their own.

 

All in exchange for a once a round one die insurance, something that in today's red die power creep/AC+AB/Bombs world isn't going to be even noticeable.

As is with the change he is a massively overpriced offensive 3PO that has gone from being that worthwhile costly investment (points-wise and even from a sales perspective with the price of the Raider to get him) to being a complete joke. The Emperor should be the best in the game. I love the fights against him where he would quietly change a key die to save an ace or instead allow Vader to give into his hatred and create another critical in his roll. Those were some of our best games and very thematic with Palpatine sitting and watching the battle, or having to focus on him and take out his shuttle. We still house rule in casual games the old Palpatine and he is perfectly balanced in today's modern craziness.

Rebels and Scum are at the top, and Empire is a dying faction only held together by the weak glue that is Kylo and a lightweight frame. I think now, more than ever, it's time to free the Emperor once more.

The defender nerf should be lessened as well, if not undone. I could agree with keep the change for overlaping obstacles but the rest is too strong. They are one of the easiest ship to block in the game because of their predictability and stress now affet them much more than most other ships. That evade is essential to make them playable. Thats why it was added...

Palp nerf could be undone or just lessened. IMO just having to use him before reroll would have been a big enough change.

If they dont undo the nerfs i think it will take a couple of waves before we see Imps back in the game. Unless of course they give the faction something like a JMK, Shadowcaster, Miranda, Biggs, Dash or Kanan. IMO only one of them would be enough to bring the Imps in the top 10.

2 hours ago, brownj23 said:

Though I do think he is still pretty good.

Stats are clearly proving otherwise. I think we have enough data now and enough time have passed to make a viable conclusion.

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My thoughts on reversing the nerfs to x7 and Palpatine... well, let's start with a qualified statement; At the time of their release, the X7 defender and Palpatine both represented a significant power creep that was not healthy for the game. Major Juggler's math is very clear in that regard. Had those upgrades remained unopposed in the metagame, there is no question a nerf would have been merited.

But then the Punishing One expansion happened, and FFG is still doing damage control from that. Then the cluster mines buff encouraged people to try Sabine out again, and she proved to be capable of Palpatine level shenanigans as well now that people had gotten the hang of bombing. And now we've gotten wave 11 which gave us a Scum Sabine, Biggs's new best friend, and UNLIMITED BOMBS! (Hooray for prequel trilogy memes). And to make matters worse, a lot of the stuff that has crept up after Palpatine has been targeted at his favorite wingmen.

So, should the nerf have happened? That depends on whether they plan to hit quite a few other things in subsequent FAQs, which may or may not make sense from a business perspective. By itself, the palp nerf was unnecessarysince the upcoming releases were at the new power level Palpatine had set, and merely left a bad taste in the mouth of people who liked using him. If FFG is going to take steps to correct power creep with more FAQs, then the palp nerf was just a teething problem.

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2 hours ago, Elavion said:

H3LL NO.

 

Why do people keep asking for this? It's riddiculous. FFG, please, force us to run a lambda shuttle in every f'ing list again!

 

Palp was a broken card. Now it's just very strong- a solid chunk of imp lists in nationals+ top cuts run Palpatine. Mostly on RAC, but ve had a palp shuttle in top32 at US nationals literally last weekend.

 

With that stupid BS NPE gone, they can finally give some new toys to imps- it just takes time.

 

As far as rebels and scum having some broken stuff, it's just a matter of nerfing the strongest lists. Then will we have balance.

 

People keep asking it because it was unjustified.

It was broken card by what standards? Clearly not by tournament success, it did not make it to top two at Worlds even before the nerf. Pretty OP, right?

And as for the "new toys to imps"... it has been quite a while and Imperials haven´t got even remotely as good upgrades or ships as the other factions. And from the looks of it, the gunboat will not change that.

The nerfing of scum & rebels is way overdue.

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39 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

People keep asking it because it was unjustified.

It was broken card by what standards? Clearly not by tournament success, it did not make it to top two at Worlds even before the nerf. Pretty OP, right?

And as for the "new toys to imps"... it has been quite a while and Imperials haven´t got even remotely as good upgrades or ships as the other factions. And from the looks of it, the gunboat will not change that.

The nerfing of scum & rebels is way overdue.

It was broken by the same standards as 4SR: Not unbeatable, but an NPE and limiting listbuilding both for you and your opponent.

 

The only imperial ship released since the palp nerf was the Aggressor, and it was almost definitely designed before they even started working on a palp nerf. Wouldn't be surprised if the same was the case for the gunboat. The first post-palpnerf Imperial design will probably be introduced in wave 13.

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1 hour ago, Pretty Green said:

It was broken card by what standards? Clearly not by tournament success, it did not make it to top two at Worlds even before the nerf. Pretty OP, right?

It had clear tournament success at store levels. Worlds is one tournament per year and its the best of the best. Palp can be beat by the best players in the world but it totally skews store-level meta, where most play actually happens.  Tournaments at my local scene were basically Palp vs. Palp in final and if you didn't have Palpatine card, don't bother coming.

If you base all of a game on Worlds than the entire game is just those few hundred that can make Worlds. If that was the case, FFG wouldn't make the game and Stores wouldn't support it.

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