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GILLIES291

Time to Reverse the Palpatine Nerf?

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Alright so full disclosure I'm primarily a Rebels player, while my wife is Empire for life. Both of us think scum and random no name ships being way better than the movie ships is fairly dumb. That being said:

 

So Rebels versus Rebels in the final. And if you check the standings, Scum as usual is also dominating at the top tables with Dengar/Nym. And all the while the Imperials slowly slip down even further. 

Lots of great fixes have been suggested, fixed PS of 9, bombs unable to be dropped if you are stressed, Aces pack with Interceptors getting two EPTs or Auththrusters for bombs, nerfing the new brokenness (which even though we like this idea, isn't realistic because FFG wants to make money and wants to sell the new hotness), and many more.

But something I really think should have happened a long time ago, to fix a change that never should have happened in the first place, is to reverse the nerf on Palpatine.

 

Most people agree that it was such an unneeded nerf for the following reasons:

-He is the most expensive crew in the game

-requires two slots so you can only put him on large ships and even then can't bring anything else on them (except for RAC builds)

-pretty much guarantees you have one ship out of the fight so your aces are fighting on their own.

 

All in exchange for a once a round one die insurance, something that in today's red die power creep/AC+AB/Bombs world isn't going to be even noticeable.

As is with the change he is a massively overpriced offensive 3PO that has gone from being that worthwhile costly investment (points-wise and even from a sales perspective with the price of the Raider to get him) to being a complete joke. The Emperor should be the best in the game. I love the fights against him where he would quietly change a key die to save an ace or instead allow Vader to give into his hatred and create another critical in his roll. Those were some of our best games and very thematic with Palpatine sitting and watching the battle, or having to focus on him and take out his shuttle. We still house rule in casual games the old Palpatine and he is perfectly balanced in today's modern craziness.

Rebels and Scum are at the top, and Empire is a dying faction only held together by the weak glue that is Kylo and a lightweight frame. I think now, more than ever, it's time to free the Emperor once more.

Edited by GILLIES291

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I would prefer that they just add a new NPE for the Imperials to play with and use against the Rebel Scum. 

How about...................Whisper title that adds 2 PS, so she can hit PS11 with VI :)

 

Edited by Boom Owl

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Just now, PhantomFO said:

Frankly, with the amount of PS10 reactive shenanigans that Nym is able to use, the Palp nerf may not be enough. It may be time to reverse the Phantom nerf.

easy there, killer. How about we start with X/7 and palps, then see what the gunboat has in store before we let that monster loose again?

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Considering the trends, I'm kinda expecting the Empire to get the next gift that breaks the game. While with the dial still unknown to show if the Gunboat is it, I'd wager that it's coming and everybody will be complaining the Empire is over powered again... Well, and Scum... just because...

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I'm not sure I understand why the goal would be to bring things back up instead of simply pulling things down into line. Nerfing powerful cards is in general better for the longevity of the game than buffing weaker cards. Also Palpatine and x7 are pretty alright as they are, they fit the flow of the game better overall than their prenerf effects.

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I'm an Imperial player and I would hate to see Palpatine nerf to be reversed, as it would effectively nerf all future Imperial ships in the lists that do not bring Palpatine (the same way Biggs currently limits Rebel ships design space). I think that the nerf was correct in identifying and fixing a problem and the only possible change to Palp card is a cost change (however it is very unlikely to happen for obvious reasons).

Edited by PT106

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10 minutes ago, nigeltastic said:

Nerfing powerful cards is in general better for the longevity of the game than buffing weaker cards.

This. 

Let's also not forget that imps recently got (IMO) one of the best bang for your buck upgrades in the game in Light Weight Frame.

You know how many rebel and scum ships would love to have that upgrade??

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25 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Considering the trends, I'm kinda expecting the Empire to get the next gift that breaks the game. While with the dial still unknown to show if the Gunboat is it, I'd wager that it's coming and everybody will be complaining the Empire is over powered again... Well, and Scum... just because...

Scum is getting the new sniper ship, which will dominate some portion of the meta. Cancelling focus and evade tokens is just to good. I can see 4 of them doing something by creating a killbox of sorts.

Harpoon missile is going to kill FSR, but the best carrier for that sort of remains up to the gunboat's dial and how reload and it's action economy all interact. Or it might be the tie defender, or who knows maybe the TIE punisher becomes the go to ship.

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Old Palp would be able to give Imperials a fighting chance versus Bomblets. Quickdraw and Vader won't go down as easy. Soontir "the unhittable" NPE people complained about would still see no play. X/7 Defenders would be pretty good again, but still have counter play which was the huge reason people hated them. 

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8 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

Agreed. The whole nerf was done too hastily. Imperials weren´t winning Worlds even with pre-nerf Palpatine. Now it has gone even worse from that.

The nerf happened at an awkward time just after the jmk was(finally) toned down to allow palp defenders to flourish sometime, but happened right before worlds which screwed any chance of that list making the very top cut for the year.

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Maybe on the reversing the Palpatine nerf.  That said, I'd prefer to see nerfs on Biggs lists and a few Scum things first.

Never on undoing the x/7 nerf.  It's entirely fair to ask that a Defender avoid bumps and asteroids and clear stress in order to get their free evade.  Blocking and forcing people onto rocks should remain a viable strategy.  Of course, K4 Security Droid and Genius and maybe a few other effects ought to receive the same nerf.

Never on rolling back the Phantom nerf, either.  When decloaking at PS 9, the level of abuse Whisper can inflict on most things lower PS is far to great.  The last thing the game needs is a ship which is utterly broken OP in certain situations (like against a low-PS jousting squad--that is, the X-Wings so many people want a fix for), while at the same time is never going to really compete, because Nym and Dengar will probably still crush it.  I wouldn't mind something to help bring low-PS phantoms into the game, though.  Light Weight Frame gives reasonable baseline agility, and the native 4 attack dice have potential.  I don't know the best way to do that, but it'd be fun for it to happen.

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21 hours ago, markcsoul said:

This. 

Let's also not forget that imps recently got (IMO) one of the best bang for your buck upgrades in the game in Light Weight Frame.

You know how many rebel and scum ships would love to have that upgrade??

They and their 'Rebel and Scum only' cards can shove it.

Edited by Nyxen

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I had Palpatine in my Epic squad, but after the nerf, I dropped him. At the next epic tournament, I sorely wished I had him, even post nerf. Each round I picked out at least one die roll where I thought, "Gee, I wish I could call a Palp before I roll these dice." Even with 10 ships on the table, he would have been a powerhouse. I understand that 8 points out of 300 is a lot easier to accept than 8 points out of 100, but everybody says Palp is worth more with fewer ships, so it stands to reason he'd still be fine in standard play. Just my two credits.

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1 hour ago, FlyingAnchors said:

easy there, killer. How about we start with X/7 and palps, then see what the gunboat has in store before we let that monster loose again?

 

This. The Phantom was simply ridiculous pre-nerf. Plus, keep in mind that Scum can take a Cloaking Device as well, do we really need to be buffing those guys any more?

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While I would prefer to move forward than back, with the lack of forward movement as far as bringing about balance goes, reversing the Palp nerf and/or removing the stress part of the x7 nerf should help Imps out. And maybe only until the next stage of the nerfening, but something has to change. I mean, by this time last year the first attempt to curb Deadeye U-boats was rolled out. Yeah, that didn't really work all that well, but it was at least a try. We haven't even gotten that for Imps.

Edited by SabineKey
Added a word for better clarity

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6 minutes ago, Nyxen said:

They and they're 'Rebel and Scum only' cards can shove it.

 

Some of those make sense though. Arc Caster would be hilariously broken if it had access to Ruthlessness or the XW-1 Gunboat title that's coming up for wave 12. Pulse Ray Shields would have been fine though, as would Fearlessness.

Also, I've always felt that Mara Jade shouldn't have had a faction limitation. Or if not that, then Rebel and Scum versions.

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I wish so much this would happen (in hindsight, that errata was really unwarranted, and didn't even lead to the supposed results). Unfortunately, I doubt they'll ever roll back on anything. They're not WotC/DCI, where they ban something, then look at the meta after a few months/years, and then they just announce that the changed meta doesn't require that ban to still be enforced, so they unban the card, and it never sound like they're fixing a mistake they made, it's just a matter of reevaluating the meta and act accordingly, and everything is always in flux, almost nothing is set in stone.

In FFG's case, though, they would look like they made a mistake (because they did). Plus, the form these interventions takes is flawed to begin with: they're not bans, as in artificial decisions to steer the meta in a certain direction and away from another; that's the end result, but the form is that of an "errata", so they're saying, "this card that's been printed this way should read this other way instead". And that's harder to roll back, because then it becomes, "this card that's been printed this way should still read that way despite the other way we told you to read it earlier". To errata an errata is just nonsensical.

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Frankly I'd roll back the nerfs to Palp AND TIE/x7.

Either you try and rebalance the factions by nerfing the likes of the Contracted Scout, Punishing One, K4 Security Droid, Advanced SLAM, Genius etc and end up increasing the size of the FAQ and number of misprinted cards, or you roll back some previous changes, decrease the size of the FAQ, reduce the number of misprinted cards and see if that helps.

There is literally no reason why Palpatine and x7 should continue to be nerfed in the current meta.  There are much bigger game-changing cards out there.

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4 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

While I would prefer to move forward than back, the lack of forward movement as far as bringing about balance goes, reversing the Palp nerf and/or removing the stress part of the x7 nerf should help Imps out. And maybe only until the next stage of the nerfening, but something has to change. I mean, by this time last year the first attempt to curb Deadeye U-boats was rolled out. Yeah, that didn't really work all that well, but it was at least a try. We haven't even gotten that for Imps.

 

So, would it just be the Stress Limitation for the X7 nerf, or does that include the No Bumps and No Overlapping Asteroids part? Conversely, what about the reverse?

I've often felt a lot of the attempts to put the Genie that is the Jump back into the bottle by FFG have been very hamfisted and often nerfed other things more than their targets.

I *still* to this day don't know what the point of the nerf that disallowed you to spend more than one evade token per defence roll was. Did one of the game devs just REALLY REALLY REALLY HATE Laetin Ashera?

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