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Velvetelvis

Maybe this wasn't meant to be a "forever" kind of game after all.

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Is it possible a lot of us who aren't entirely pleased with the game lately are actually under an impression that this game was meant to sort of...just keep going?

I think that's what I thought when I was buying heavily....that this would be a long term thing. I always felt that if things went South I could just use what I have and play with my buddies around a few beers. And call it good.

The general balance being all wobbly was fun. Still is...I think.... But lots of folks seem to think the plate has spun off the stick.

What I'm getting at is,what really is the sort of lifespan of a game like this with wave releases and constant changes? I'm used to old school batteltech when a book would come out now and then with new tech and designs in it...and stuff never really became unfun...it was just more goodies.

Maybe this sort of wave release style of game design just isn't really meant to go the distance of time.

Anyways...as a side note.i really am looking forward to the community built 2.0 it couldn't come a moment too soon for me. U think I trust the players way more then the developers at the game company. I have enough ships for a lifetime of fun. It will be really exciting to see how they can be used in the future.

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If your not familiar with it there is another preprinted miniatures game called Heroclix. It's based on comic book characters from the Marvel and DC universe with a splash of other properties. TNMT, Pacicic Rim, Street Fighter to name a few. That game comes out with a new set every two or three months. Each set has about 55+ characters in it. It's a blind booster that now costs $12.99 per booster. This year they hit the 15 year anniversary. So I think x-wing can easily make it to the 10 year mark seeing as we are already at the 5. 15 years might be pushing it though unless FFG decides to start doing set rotation and then coming out with new pilot abilities of characters we already have.

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@Velvetelvis - The game is still fun as long as you look beyond the top level tournaments. It seems though that you are not having fun. Are you on the verge of hitting the top tables so the meta is such an impact on your every game? What is it you are trying to get out of this? Why do you post a different negative view point every other day? (Exaggeration: I don't actually keep track of your threads, though I do read many of them.)

Flying top meta sucks right now, but you know what? I'm not hitting top at Nationals or Worlds, so why should I worry about what they are flying? I will fly what I dang well like and you know what? I'll be perfectly happy playing the game. My best match at GenCon with my crazy list was against FS2.0 and while I lost I enjoyed challenging myself to think outside the box to do it with my own style. Against another player, I may have actually beat him. If all my ships showed up on day one (stupid dial) I may have beat him. I had fun all the same.

What about the game was fun for you yesterday that makes today so terrible?

Edited by LagJanson
Typo

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2 hours ago, Velvetelvis said:

Maybe this sort of wave release style of game design just isn't really meant to go the distance of time.

It isn't the waves, it's the emphasis.  The focus of this game around competitive play means that it is never focused on fluff.  We get new ships, and new ways to "stay competitive," but we never get anything just because it is Star Wars.  There are way too many iconic characters missing from the game, way too many movie/cartoon tie-ins that have been skipped over, and not enough effort is being put into Epic play.

It isn't always fun because it isn't designed for entertainment. . .it's designed for victory at all costs.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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17 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

It isn't the waves, it's the emphasis.  The focus of this game around competitive play mean that it is never focused on fluff.  We get new ships, and new ways to "stay competitive," but we never get anything just because it is Star Wars.  There are way too many iconic characters missing from the game, and not enough effort is being put into Epic play.

It isn't always fun because it isn't designed for entertainment. . .it's designed for victory at all costs.

Let me get back to you after I throw another tournament by playing the crazy idea I got the night before.

This week I might be running autoblaster aggressors for 21 each, depending on what else I stuff around them.

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58 minutes ago, Slugrage said:

The best things I ever did is stop playing competitively, and stopped caring about the meta.

Amen. Once I realized that I never had any intention of going beyond my local Store Championship and store kits, I stopped worrying about a lot of stuff. I still want a balanced game, but I don't stress as much about some things. Flying missions and such are more important to me than what just won at Worlds or National Champs. I mean, I'll give pheaver a virtual pat on the back here on the forums, but I'm not stressing the list results.

 

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

It isn't the waves, it's the emphasis.  The focus of this game around competitive play mean that it is never focused on fluff.  We get new ships, and new ways to "stay competitive," but we never get anything just because it is Star Wars.  There are way too many iconic characters missing from the game, and not enough effort is being put into Epic play.

It isn't always fun because it isn't designed for entertainment. . .it's designed for victory at all costs.

Now, I can't always agree with this. For instance, the U-Wing. There are many people that claim the U-Wing is crap, and while its not the best option for 100/6, I don't think  anyone claiming the U-Wing is crap has ever set Bodhi Rook (pilot) down into an Epic match with a bunch of ordinance carriers and seen how effective it is. While Breach Specialist can work on the Spruce Goose in 100/6, its obviously meant for greater things in Epic play on Huge ships. Operations Specialist is more potent in Epic than 100/6. So forth and so on, there are other instance of cards or pilots that don't see wide usage on 100/6 that are more effective in Epic, but are released in small or large ships. 

I do think that there could be more official support of Epic from the Organized Play folks, but honestly, I'm moving away from caring what happens there anyways. There could also be more Huge ships and content released, five ships in five years isn't a whole lot, but I don't know if they need like a huge ship every wave or anything.

Edited by kris40k

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I think there is an interesting point here. X-Wing came out of nowhere and blew away expectations, changing the landscape of miniature gaming. FFG didn't hesitate to start building spin-off games at different scales or different focuses, but there's going to be a critical mass. As it is, X-Wing already doesn't seem to get nearly the attention it used to, but I can't really say I'm surprised by that. FFG has probably learned a lot from not only X-Wing, but from what they've done since. I don't think they'll simply up and abandon the dogfight game involving iconic ships, because it's still one of their games that evokes the movies the most, but I'm honestly starting to wonder if a Second Edition really is going to happen. X-Wing is already old from the perspective of their development experience.

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Mildly unrelatedly, I flew a couple of 'Sequel Era Only' lists on Friday. I used cards and ships found in the products for The Force Awakens, they were pretty fun! As time goes on and the new movies bring us more sequel era ships I think this kind of thinking will have more of a leg to stand on. Especially with the new wave coming out have only on ship I'm interested in so far.

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If they reboot/redesign the original ships, there will be uproar from those that feel "cheated" out of their money by having to buy the update. If they don't, there will be descent over them being subpar.

 

While there's still a ways to go yet the pool of available ships without the fanbase looking at it and going "the what now?" and to be fair there more than a few of those already. We're just lucky the "greenlighters" understand the playerbase is more than just the 13-25 yo market who would be lucky to have even heard of the games a lot of the more out there waves come from. If not, we may have been left in a much worse state than we are now.

 

Is it finite? Maybe.  FFG is certainly not beyond doing a 2.0...... but I get the impression if that were to happen we wouldn't get card packs, we'd get everything bar the plastic (and maybe even less than that if the went to more than 2 base sizes) scrapped and started from scratch.

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1 minute ago, Ralgon said:

If they reboot/redesign the original ships, there will be uproar from those that feel "cheated" out of their money by having to buy the update. If they don't, there will be descent over them being subpar.

 

This is something EVERY successful miniatures game has done at some point in its life cycle.  If people feel cheated, no one is keeping them from playing X-Wing "Classic."  But the game right now is stale and suffering, I want SO much to like this game, but I just cant.  Outside of the aesthetics, NONE of it feels like Star Wars.  It needs to be re-balanced with a focus not on Unique pilots, but on Elite Pilot Talents, build your own ace from the ground up.  I'm not opposed to aces, I like that I can run Vader and his Black Squadron, the problem is with the obvious imbalance in the game at the thematic level.  Vader (the arguably best fighter pilot in the galaxy) in a starfighter being outmaneuvered by some bounty hunters unknown wife in a cargo hauler is beyond idiotic.

Recently FFGs X-Wing designers were interviewed and quoted as saying that because Corran Horn exists, it doesn't matter that the other E-Wings are ****, its good enough.  These were the designers... openly admitting that they purposefully ignore suffering and weak ships because they made a broken ace... This indicates it may be time to not only cycle out the developers, but begin work on a 2.0 system.

 

1 minute ago, Ralgon said:

While there's still a ways to go yet the pool of available ships without the fanbase looking at it and going "the what now?" and to be fair there more than a few of those already. We're just lucky the "greenlighters" understand the playerbase is more than just the 13-25 yo market who would be lucky to have even heard of the games a lot of the more out there waves come from. If not, we may have been left in a much worse state than we are now.

 

Outside of being outright cancelled, Disney pulling the licence, and Mick Mouse siccing Pluto on the developers (actually, that last one wouldn't be too bad, maybe they'd get their act together) I don't see it being in a much worse situation.

 

1 minute ago, Ralgon said:

Is it finite? Maybe.  FFG is certainly not beyond doing a 2.0...... but I get the impression if that were to happen we wouldn't get card packs, we'd get everything bar the plastic (and maybe even less than that if the went to more than 2 base sizes) scrapped and started from scratch.

 

It would be unbelievably simple to release 3 separate (Imperial, Rebel, Scum) $19.99 X-Wing 2.0 update boxes and an updated starter box.  If this balanced the game and replenished the player base, it would be a boon to the community.  I get it, change is scary, but its also necessary. 

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5 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

It isn't the waves, it's the emphasis.  The focus of this game around competitive play means that it is never focused on fluff.  We get new ships, and new ways to "stay competitive," but we never get anything just because it is Star Wars.  There are way too many iconic characters missing from the game, way too many movie/cartoon tie-ins that have been skipped over, and not enough effort is being put into Epic play.

It isn't always fun because it isn't designed for entertainment. . .it's designed for victory at all costs.

well I mean the point of the game is to win, so of course ships are going to be equipped to achieve their win condition. Ffg isn't going to start shipping jokes with the miniatures, that's up to you to provide your own entertainment, whether through competitive play, or casual. you can't say the game isn't designed at least mostly around fluff when you look at Biggs ability. It's very cinematic. It also just so happens to be very good right now. Or tycho, fels wrath, Porkins, Sabine, boba fett crew, pre nerf palp (post nerf to but not quite the same) those are all fluff oriented effects. Some of them good, some mediocre. And there's allot more, but it's late. 

Also how many characters are we missing from the scope of either pilot or relevant crew? I count about 7. Also nothing is stopping people from creating their own. 

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9 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

 

well I mean the point of the game is to win, so of course ships are going to be equipped to achieve their win condition. Ffg isn't going to start shipping jokes with the miniatures, that's up to you to provide your own entertainment, whether through competitive play, or casual. you can't say the game isn't designed at least mostly around fluff when you look at Biggs ability. It's very cinematic. It also just so happens to be very good right now. Or tycho, fels wrath, Porkins, Sabine, boba fett crew, pre nerf palp (post nerf to but not quite the same) those are all fluff oriented effects. Some of them good, some mediocre. And there's allot more, but it's late. 

Also how many characters are we missing from the scope of either pilot or relevant crew? I count about 7. Also nothing is stopping people from creating their own. 

The game is pretty far from fluff.  Flying toilets are more maneuverable than A-Wings and TIE Interceptors let alone standard fighters.  The fact that advanced military craft are missing the newer maneuvering template moves, yet cargo haulers are s-looping or tallon rolling around the table is a blatant sign that the developers hold the Star Wars universe in contempt.

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54 minutes ago, Gadgetron said:

 

This is something EVERY successful miniatures game has done at some point in its life cycle.  If people feel cheated, no one is keeping them from playing X-Wing "Classic."  But the game right now is stale and suffering, I want SO much to like this game, but I just cant.  Outside of the aesthetics, NONE of it feels like Star Wars.  It needs to be re-balanced with a focus not on Unique pilots, but on Elite Pilot Talents, build your own ace from the ground up.  I'm not opposed to aces, I like that I can run Vader and his Black Squadron, the problem is with the obvious imbalance in the game at the thematic level.  Vader (the arguably best fighter pilot in the galaxy) in a starfighter being outmaneuvered by some bounty hunters unknown wife in a cargo hauler is beyond idiotic.

Recently FFGs X-Wing designers were interviewed and quoted as saying that because Corran Horn exists, it doesn't matter that the other E-Wings are ****, its good enough.  These were the designers... openly admitting that they purposefully ignore suffering and weak ships because they made a broken ace... This indicates it may be time to not only cycle out the developers, but begin work on a 2.0 system.

 

 

Outside of being outright cancelled, Disney pulling the licence, and Mick Mouse siccing Pluto on the developers (actually, that last one wouldn't be too bad, maybe they'd get their act together) I don't see it being in a much worse situation.

 

 

It would be unbelievably simple to release 3 separate (Imperial, Rebel, Scum) $19.99 X-Wing 2.0 update boxes and an updated starter box.  If this balanced the game and replenished the player base, it would be a boon to the community.  I get it, change is scary, but its also necessary. 

So you want to remove what makes named pilots fun, and focus the game around epts, which it already does for the most part anyway. 

Also how do you expect every pilot to be viable all the time. There's a reason people fly Corran and not knave squadron. And since people fly Corran, the e wing gets table time. I've never heard anyone complain "oh I wish I could take a ps 1 e wing!". Also the jump master on initial release fit this utopian idea, every pilot was meta playable. And look at what it did. Now imagine every faction has that. The game would be approaching 40k new codex levels of broken if every ship were this way. So I disagree that is the direction x wing should head. i don't think new developers would be a smart idea either. 

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Once again, there is nothing unique to x-wing in this experience it's common across all FFG living games.  

None of them are designed to live 'forever' or even with any sort of design vision or plan for them to survive more than a year or two.  FFG are unprepared for any of their games to be successful, and they all ultimately collapse under the weight of successive poor design layers that have prioritised short term sales over long term game health.

You can look at any FFG game and see the same pattern, pretty much.

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Velvetelvis...I agree with you. The 80's way of gaming is gone. 30 years ago game designers must provide solid background and rules, durable and solid. No internet. Products well tested and ok. Of course many many bad games...like in the Movies. Predator, Terminator... and thousands of Z movies.

Battletech. Air Force. Squad Leader. Wooden Ships and Iron Men. Ambush. Etc. Now no need to test games during 12 or 24 months. Simply "living rules" and "Faq". New codex the better. Etc. Profit first.

Now games are designed to be imbalanced. Purchase Infinity models in blister. Much better than those provided with the basic boxes. Per example.

This is our world. Gaming is now much more popular than 30 years ago. So more expensive. Ok. Also products are by far more attractive to our eyes. 

But I can not understand why X Wing the Miniatures Game focuses on quite obscure ships and not X Wings, Advanced Ties... Players around me are eager to buy Heroes of Scarif or AT ATs or Death Star boxed set. Rules about Trench, Power Nodes...

So simply adapt your game if you are not interested in KM 12s or Toilet Seats. This used to be a simple, social and fast minis game. As a SWs Space Combat Simulator very limited. NO 3D combat, etc. But perhaps this was the key to succes. Thematic and simple.

It is in your hands to void powecreep... If you play casual. 

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X-wing survived the u-boat craziness and recovered. It can recover from the mad sapper meta as well. That said, I'm kinda worried that devs keep making mistakes like that. It's like they're running out of ideas and/or don't seem to care about the game's long term health so much anymore.

Current meta is definitely unfun and flat. Sabine alone was enough to wipe out most of the low-hp, high PS ships. Adding Nym with his PS10 infinite bombs warped the meta to a state where low-to-mid HP ships that can only shoot in arc are a dying breed. It hit imperials the most, since such ships were always the core of the faction, but it heavily restricted other factions too. With autothruster aces nowhere to be found anymore, fat turrets are having a great time, but most of the players not so much...

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CdPLz_1UYAE_0fe.jpg

Changes are coming people, just clearly not in the middle of Nationals season.  We know this for a fact.  We've already seen evidence of it thanks to an updated version of the Advanced SLAM card that's on the horizon.

And speaking personally, I much prefer FFG's method of doing things to certain.. other... games companies.  I don't want to buy a new rulebook for the game every 6-12 months, and a new rulebook for my faction every 6-12 months as well.  I don't want to have to replace my entire collection because the scale of the miniatures was changed.

Plus, it seems to me the vast majority of the "problems" encountered here are an issue when playing at the top of the competitive meta.  Of course you're going to see similiar lists in the cut for Regional, National, International events.  You'll never see players taking jank lists en masse doing well at top tier events.  People playing at that level want to minimise the risks when listbuilding and use what they know will get them results.  You simply don't take unneccesary chances when playing at the top level.  I mean, in a lot of instances in the top cut at these competitve events you're not just looking at the same lists, you're looking at the same players!

Expecting otherwise is like expecting San Marino to be competing alongside Germany, Brazil, Spain in the semi finals of next year's World Cup.  Sometimes the stars might align and you might get a surprise upset (like Wales at last year's European Championships or Greece in 2004), but the majority of the time you know which teams to bet on before the event even begins.

Edited by FTS Gecko

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53 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Once again, there is nothing unique to x-wing in this experience it's common across all FFG living games.  

None of them are designed to live 'forever' or even with any sort of design vision or plan for them to survive more than a year or two.  FFG are unprepared for any of their games to be successful, and they all ultimately collapse under the weight of successive poor design layers that have prioritised short term sales over long term game health.

You can look at any FFG game and see the same pattern, pretty much.

Even "Hey, that's my fish!"?

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