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Kappa Smith

Tiers of lore be damned?

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Hello, bit of a rant here as I am flabbergasted with a particular statement being thrown around the forums.

As people well know there are (were?) tiers or levels of lore, the films being at the top. If one source contradicts the other, for example if a book contradicts the film then where do we draw the line? Is there a new system in place or are we supposed to simply argue what contradiction we prefer? Perhaps what came first (originals) should be above what came second (a biproduct of the original) or the other way around. If what people are saying is true and all systems be damned then many of the stories of star wars are now openly contradicting themselves (be it a miniscule or a gargantuan topic). So none of the star wars lore should be taken very seriously from the prospective of one of these naysayers? In other words disregard almost everything they have ever posted. If you don't do this, well then you may as well disregard all the star wars films and cartoons, because specific factors in them can be contradicted by the most insignificant of comic books or vice versa. Sounds absolutely preposterous to me. There is litteraly no sense in it, only chaos.

Where do we draw the line?

Thanks for reading, try to keep your comments civil cheers

Edit; Let it be known the original post is about star wars in general I did not quote legends or canon or w/e you want to catagorize peices of lore as. For all I care and for the purpose of many of you understanding you may disregard all of legends, but contradictions will still be made due to the same reasons as above.

Edited by Kappa Smith

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*shrugs*

Honestly, despite being hip-deep in the old EU as my own personal Happy Place, I stopped trying to make "sense" of it decades ago and just cherry picked the bits I actually liked.

Since there is no Tolkien-esque cohesive body of work that one can achieve scholarhood in*, I still feel this to be the best bet.

 

*Despite what they're now attempting... our generation will be known as the Fractured Fandom because the larger portion of our enjoyment stems from abandoned storylines. :(

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I've read a number of your topics now @Kappa Smith, and I have to say, I'm afraid you need to update yourself on the current status of Star Wars lore. 

Anything published before Disney bought the franchise is essentially now classed as 'Legends', with the exception of the films and the Clone Wars TV series. 

'Legends' are now non-cannon and should be disregarded as far as lore and story goes. 

Its sad, as I was very fond of the extended universe, having read it extensively, but it is the new reality, and we need to live with it and move on. 

As such, forget everything you knew. Unlearn what you have learned. 

Now, everything is equally cannon in this new era, whether it be film, tv series, cartoon, comic or miniature game. 

For example, both the Ghost and Chopper were seen on screen in Rogue One, as well as General Syndulla's name being called over the comm. 

Evidence that film and cartoon are equally valid. 

Edited by kurttkrueger

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You have missed the point, so if its equally valid, yet contradicts one another then who is right? *drops the microphone*

This will be my only reply as im sure many will say the same as yourself without thinking about it.

Edit; Let it be known the original post is about star wars in general I did not quote legends or canon or w/e you want to catagorize peices of lore as. For all I care and for the purpose of many of you understanding then you can disregard all of legends and contradictions will still be made...

Edited by Kappa Smith

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2 minutes ago, Kappa Smith said:

so if its equally valid, yet contradicts one another then who is right? *drops the microphone*

This is will be my only reply as im sure many will say the same.

Sorry, I don't understand your point?

There is no evidence that any of the films or TV series contradict each other? The only contradictions are where the old EU stories butt against the new stuff, which takes precedence.  

Also, 'drops the microphone'? Really?

Edited by kurttkrueger

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You are talking about the old EU publications that always were on a level below the movies, because Georgie didn't care about them. Disney implemented a more involved aproach, invalidating the old to make room for the new. The old stories are still part of Star Wars and get published as legends, but they are not binding for new work at all.  Everything under the legends banner is non-canon. The movies, 3D animated series, and publications under Disney license are unless specified otherwise, without any tiers. This is possible because Lucasfilm has a much stronger hand in the creation of new novels and comics and strives to avoid contradictions. At some point in the future when the Disneyverse canon becomes too unwieldy tiers may be reintroduced.

TL;DR Star Wars has a central source of story now creating a coherent narrative. Old stuff was in the way, so it has been pushed to the back.

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They have a story group in place for fact checking.

In fact, one of the rumored reasons why the Han Solo film lost its last director fuo was because they were doing things that contradicted the larger Star Wars canon.

Contradictions will probably happen at some point, if not already, but the story group will probably address it via starwars.com.

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I have watched every movie (side note are the Ewok movies cannon???? What about "that which shall not be named festive episode"??) I have read every adult novel released since new cannon started (not the young adult novels though I may get to them when I am bored) and have hard copies of ever comic book since marvel launched the line (yup it is as expensive as you would expect) I finished out the clone wars cartoon and am in season 2 of rebels(I know I am behind no spoilers please :-))

 

The point is I have not yet come across any glaring contradictions. No Boba Fett is not a journeyman protector from Concord dawn (yet it could still happen), Han was married before Leia (maybe??story on going),Thrawn is still a complete badass (imho, I know a point of contention with some people)  so where are the contradictions?

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38 minutes ago, sanityawol said:

I have watched every movie (side note are the Ewok movies cannon???? What about "that which shall not be named festive episode"??) I have read every adult novel released since new cannon started (not the young adult novels though I may get to them when I am bored) and have hard copies of ever comic book since marvel launched the line (yup it is as expensive as you would expect) I finished out the clone wars cartoon and am in season 2 of rebels(I know I am behind no spoilers please :-))

 

The point is I have not yet come across any glaring contradictions. No Boba Fett is not a journeyman protector from Concord dawn (yet it could still happen), Han was married before Leia (maybe??story on going),Thrawn is still a complete badass (imho, I know a point of contention with some people)  so where are the contradictions?

Yeah I agree that Disney has done an excellent job with the new Canon. You should try the young adult though! Lost Stars is my favorite novel so far even though it's technically young adult. 

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3 hours ago, Kappa Smith said:

This will be my only reply as im sure many will say the same as yourself without thinking about it.

Umm, why bother making a post about this, if you don't want to engage others who have a different point of view. 

This is the forum equivalent of sticking your head inside a window, shouting 'this party sucks!' and then running away . . . 

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But if the party sucks...

I'm one for head canon. Pick and choose what you like or don't like.  I'm also one for getting cool stuff for my games.  I don't particularly like Rebels or the comics, but I picked up Hera, and the 3 droids because I'll get more skirmish options and possibly some neat missions, and IA is full of its own characters. I think the Inquisitor is a stupid character with a generic look, but I'll still get the IA figure eventually.  I draw the line at Dr. Aphra. 

I don't like Rogue One, either. It's basically  a page out of the end of the Han Solo trilogy (possible author insert?) mixed with Serenity. But here it is, and if there's interesting game material that can be drawn from it for Legion or IA, I'm fine.  The EU, or Legends, is not canon until it is. Or that's the last I saw.  Let's be honest; not all of the EU stuff is good or worth saving. Opinions will vary, of course, but it's probably best that a lot of it goes away.  The whole resistance thing in ep7 boggled my mind since the New Republic described in some of the books (Rogue Squadron) was pretty great..actually better than what we got in ep7, but it's not up to me.  It's all fiction; take out of it what you want.  

Don't worry about being dogmatic about it. Except for Porg. You must accept Porg. Resistance is futile.

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55 minutes ago, qwertyuiop said:

But if the party sucks...

but it's probably best that a lot of it goes away.

#!$%@in' Vong

.....yeh, I miss Rogue and Wraith squadron. I actually felt a (extremely trite, shallow  and self-centered) pang when I heard of Aaron Allston's passing shortly after Mercy Kill was published. :(

(which I feel extremely asinine about admitting since, y'know... his family lost a loved one and here I am all in a huff cuz I got no more new corny scifi novels)

 

....OP actually seems to have a firm grasp on what constitutes a good time. I'm off to join various forums on various topics, start a recursive discussion, make a single divisive retort, then split.

Keeping the internet's chaos quotient up to it's appropriate level... I can dig it.

*trips over microphone* Thufu?!

Edited by juxstapo

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28 minutes ago, juxstapo said:

....OP actually seems to have a firm grasp on what constitutes a good time. I'm off to join various forums on various topics, start a recursive discussion, make a single divisive retort, then split.

Keeping the internet's chaos quotient up to it's appropriate level... I can dig it.

*trips over microphone* Thufu?!

Just mention Porg every now and then. You don't want to be late to the Porg party.

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6 hours ago, Wired4War said:

Yeah I agree that Disney has done an excellent job with the new Canon. You should try the young adult though! Lost Stars is my favorite novel so far even though it's technically young adult. 

I second the notion of Lost Stars! Side note: Leia: Princess of Alderaan just released (also by Claudia Gray) and it's really good too! I don't think I have to state it because most people here know that I love the new canon and they are doing a phenomenal job at keeping a clean, slick lore. There's been no major contradiction aside from one case and they quickly retconed it with another piece of media. The integrity of the Star Wars galaxy is of utmost importance to Pablo and his team.

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8 hours ago, rabidaskal said:

Umm, why bother making a post about this, if you don't want to engage others who have a different point of view. 

This is the forum equivalent of sticking your head inside a window, shouting 'this party sucks!' and then running away . . . 

Silly question, but I will answer. If I think I can add to the topic I will, but I personally felt I could not add any more and I still dont. Should circumstances change then I will add a reply where necassery. I suppose all that you could add was a **** post, but how can anyone blame you. Thats as far as some peoples inellectual minds can process and this is also partly the reason I try very hard not to have the back and forth meaningless arguments with people like yourself.

Personally I can think of a few contradictions between disneys content and the original films without even going into 'legends'. If there is no system in place I will personaly choose the films over disneys family friendly content and their cartoon aimed for a childrens audience. However seen as there is no system in place there will always be sides to take, which is going back to my original point.

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1 hour ago, Tirion said:

I too love lost stars even if it has a glaring contradiction with rogue one.

Could you specify that? I can't think of something that couldn't be explained away with off-duty or something. In how much detail was the chase for the Tantive in that book? It has been a while since I read it (most importantly before R1), so the details elude me.

35 minutes ago, Kappa Smith said:

Silly question, but I will answer. If I think I can add to the topic I will, but I personally felt I could not add any more and I still dont. Should circumstances change then I will add a reply where necassery. I suppose all that you could add was a **** post, but how can anyone blame you. Thats as far as some peoples inellectual minds can process and this is also partly the reason I try very hard not to have the back and forth meaningless arguments with people like yourself.

Personally I can think of a few contradictions between disneys content and the original films without even going into 'legends'. If there is no system in place I will personaly choose the films over disneys family friendly content and their cartoon aimed for a childrens audience. However seen as there is no system in place there will always be sides to take, which is going back to my original point.

Wow your horse couldn't grow any higher, really. If you want to talk about contradictions name them.

Ultimately canonicity is a pointless system anyways. Stories are stories and can be enjoyed regardless of meta-narrative. Disneyverse being a thing doesn't take away from the Thrawn trilogy as enjoyable read, neither is Thrawn rewriting parts of the origin of the character a bad thing. The games should take content from any availiable source that suits the designers goals, like in X-Wing.

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Personally my most valued contradiction is on my latest post on the thread "Galactic Empires - Racial Stance". I am unsure why you assume I am on a high horse when quoting my previous comment, I havent said anything untrue to the best of my knowledge. IQ exists, the measurment of inteligence. Inteligence being what divides society, professions, understanding and almost all things in human culture. Though I will admit I do feel like I am on a high horse when people spout the most unhelpfull of comments.

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53 minutes ago, Kappa Smith said:

Personally my most valued contradiction is on my latest post on the thread "Galactic Empires - Racial Stance". I am unsure why you assume I am on a high horse when quoting my previous comment, I havent said anything untrue to the best of my knowledge.

I read through your posts and see your point but I'm afraid I can't follow your approach either. Your idea of canonicity seems to be based on the old Lucasfilm approach when GL introduced the different tiers of canon and we had a nearly uncontrolled proliferation of thoughts and ideas in EU works. Yes, they were contradicting each other all the time. Especially when the Prequels were released, many things stated in the books became obsolete. More than that, even the movies contradicted each other (Remember Leia talking about her memories of her mother?)...

Since Disney the approach is different. All new publications are written under supervision of the Lucasfilm Story Group which is tasked to make sure there are no, or only as few slips in continuity as possible. Even the existence of Thrawn, as a high-ranking non-human was thoroughly explained (again) by Timothy Zahn lately... As for female Imperials: The movies might not show them, but they have been part of the EU since... always, I guess... The new canon has kept this tradition (not only in Rebels...) and especially since TFA we have prominent examples of female "Imperials" on screen. So this is not strictly a contradiction and I can't really see a problem for our Legion games here.

That said, I know a lot of "movie-only" purists and I can just give you the same advice I would give them: If you don't feel comfortable with models or units that don't fit into your idea of Star Wars, don't play them... It's your game, do what you want. No need to include Stormtroopers with rocket launchers (not in the movies!) or Rebels on AT-RTs (same!). There will be loads of people who'll paint their Stormtroopers in camouflage, as Shadowtroopers or with colourful unit markings or pink... Well, whatever floats your boat. I guess you'll just follow the Tarkin doctrine and paint them white... I'll probably do the same but if my opponent goes for something more individual that might contradict the movies/canon, so be it...

Edited by JohnnyTrash

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@Kappa Smith

Well, if an unintelligent peasant like me can be allowed to post its thoughts on the matter, I'll endeavor to do so.

If you happen to find a contradiction in the current canon (I won't go into what is and isn't canon, as that's already been spoken of here), I suppose you'll have to take it up with Leland Chee.
I hear that he often responds to Twitter questions about Star Wars canon, and he is the "manager of the holocron" (official title, I kid you not) and responsible for keeping track of everything in Star Wars canon. 
(a job I bet has become a lot easier now that Disney has taken over).

Now, if you refuse to do so because it's beneath you, or whatever, I suppose you'll have to decide for yourself which part of the contradiction to ignore.

Finally, I'd like to quote one of my favorite non Star Wars characters, Drax from Guardians of the Galaxy: "I too am extraordinarily humble"
Seems to fit with your personality, really.

 

https://youtu.be/-sxqdfLzkFQ?t=7m27s

 

Edited by OddballE8

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This is really simple, Kappa enjoys the old system where everything contradicted itself and there were 37 emperor clones over the new one where almost nothing contradicts itself and you occasionally have to ask for clarification from the story group. 

Kappa is entitled to that opinion, kappa can be wrong it's ok. But none of us are allowed to disagree with kappa, kappa is lord of us all. Just ask kappa. 

 

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15 hours ago, Kappa Smith said:

There is litteraly no sense in it, only chaos.

"Literally" 

15 hours ago, Kappa Smith said:

This will be my only reply

Literally?

3 hours ago, Kappa Smith said:

Silly question, but I will answer. If I think I can add to the topic I will, but I personally felt I could not add any more and I still dont. Should circumstances change then I will add a reply where necassery.

"Necessary"

In this case I suppose what could be added to the topic was derision?

3 hours ago, Kappa Smith said:

I suppose all that you could add was a **** post, but how can anyone blame you. Thats as far as some peoples inellectual minds can process and this is also partly the reason I try very hard not to have the back and forth meaningless arguments with people like yourself.

"That's"

"Intellectual"

I say, you have a point. The plebeians are swarming today, barely aware they're in a forum on a website. Poor b@$^ards.

2 hours ago, Kappa Smith said:

Personally my most valued contradiction is on my latest post on the thread "Galactic Empires - Racial Stance". I am unsure why you assume I am on a high horse when quoting my previous comment,

If only you could all see the cruel joke nature has played on you. One can but pity...
And it's no one's fault but your own @Admiral Deathrain if you haven't adequately studied the Book of Kappa. Go read Racial Stance before attempting to enter this discussion!

2 hours ago, Kappa Smith said:

 IQ exists, the measurment of inteligence. Inteligence being what divides society, professions, understanding and almost all things in human culture. Though I will admit I do feel like I am on a high horse when people spout the most unhelpfull of comments.

"Measurement"

"Intelligence"

"Unhelpful"

...all told I feel pretty good about this assertation. Until now I strongly suspected human culture was divided by race, religion, politics, economics and gender.

Alright. I've made a flow chart on a whiteboard with annotations linking to all of your other posts...

...and I'm still not sure what you're on about. However, while studying it I did suddenly, abruptly achieve transcendence and had to catch myself before my essence floated through the ceiling.

51 minutes ago, Wired4War said:

Edit: never mind, arguments on the internet aren't worth it.

GAH!!   ... you... you.... peasant!!! 

The only point I will refute with you all... and I will go to the wall for this. Is that Lost Stars royally sucked... hard. Ugh.

Anyhoo, love you guys! Kappa... never change... ever.

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