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mplain

Rulings compilation

65 posts in this topic

2 minutes ago, Totengraber said:

Duelist Training: Why *wouldn't* it be able to target a bowed character? The discarding of cards is a change of game state and is therefore a legal action to take.

The question with Duelist Training is whether or not it can actually target a bowed character. For a target to be legal for an ability, that ability's effect must have some way to affect the targeted card. With Duelist Training no matter how the duel goes the targeted card will never be affected if it is already bowed -- if the target wins the duel, it's bowed, and if the target loses the duel, it's still bowed. However, the reason why this is is a question is whether or not the act of putting something through a duel by itself counts as "affecting" a character, even if the state of the character post-effect is always going to be identical to the state pre-effect.

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Actually, I rescind my earlier post. You absolutely may not target a bowed character with the Duelist Training action:

 

Quote

RRG (p. 16) Target - bullet #7

 A card is not an eligible target for an ability if the resolution of that ability’s effect could not affect the target at all. (For example, a bowed character cannot be chosen as the target for an ability that reads “Action: Choose a character — bow that character.”) 

<emphasis mine>

Since the secondary effect of discarding cards is not affecting the target of the duel, and the primary effect to the target (bowing) would not affect them, they may not be the target of that action.

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26 minutes ago, Totengraber said:

Actually, I rescind my earlier post. You absolutely may not target a bowed character with the Duelist Training action:

 

<emphasis mine>

Since the secondary effect of discarding cards is not affecting the target of the duel, and the primary effect to the target (bowing) would not affect them, they may not be the target of that action.

The question is whether or not the act of putting the character through a duel itself counts as affecting the character. And that's completely unclear in the RRG, unfortunately.

If all it cares about is whether or not the post effect card is any different from the pre effect card then I agree. But people have argued that putting a character through a duel counts as affecting them, thus the question.

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Okay. Now I think that's going into some weird territory that I don't think needs to be covered by the RRG. That gets into a "slippery slope" situation of having to rule every tiny detail people dream up.

The duel does not otherwise make any change whatsoever to the character in question other than to bow them, hence, they cannot be targeted. No ruling needed. 

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If I'm honest, about 70% of these rulings are answered by reading the cards for what they say (not what you think they are intended to "mean") and then cross-referencing the RRG for the words the cards use and *don't* use. No "rulings" are needed. Perhaps clarifications, but no "rulings" that require updating of wording of cards or changes to the RRG.

Isawa Tasatu likes this

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20 minutes ago, mplain said:

When you "move a character to a conflict", how does it affect the character?

The question at hand was about Duelist Training whose only affect on the targeted character is to bow that character. The argument put forth was the affect of the character being "put through a duel". There is no such affect from the rules perspective, hence no ability to target a bowed character. Duel is defined in the rules, but not as itself having an affect on the characters (state change for the involved characters).

Being moved is a game effect (RRG p.11, bullet #2), which changes the status of the character from not participating in the conflict to participating in the conflict (a state change for that character), so can be targeted all day long, so long as said character is not already in said conflict.

 

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2 hours ago, LuceLineGames said:

A duel changes skill values of both characters.

Only in the framework of the duel and temporarily, therefore it does not change the board state, only the duel state.

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1 hour ago, Mirumoto Kuroniten said:

Only in the framework of the duel and temporarily, therefore it does not change the board state, only the duel state.

Just throwing it out there. I don't have an answer to that question.

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I could use some clarity on Reprieve. If the sacrifice part of an action is separated from the (-) by a period is it still considered a cost?

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47 minutes ago, shineyorkboy said:

I could use some clarity on Reprieve. If the sacrifice part of an action is separated from the (-) by a period is it still considered a cost?

Sacrifice before the dash is a cost, sacrifice after the dash is an effect. Read more here.

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9 hours ago, Mirumoto Kuroniten said:

Only in the framework of the duel and temporarily, therefore it does not change the board state, only the duel state.

Now you're confusing the two rules, "change of game state" and "must affect the target".

A temporary change of the 'duel state' is most certainly a change of the game state, a duel being a part of the game.

The fact that dueling characters get a skill bonus equal to the honor bid seems to be affecting them alright to me.

Edited by mplain

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Hmmm...

Quote

RRG (p.23 Duel Timing)

D.6. Modify dueling skill
The ability that initiated the duel (in step D.1) established which type of skill (military or political) is being used to determine the results of the duel. Each player adds his or her honor bid to the specified skill of his or her character that is involved in the duel. This modification persists until the end of the duel.

If it weren't for the title of this step and last sentence, I would argue that skills are not actually modified, but simply that the numbers are just added together.

I do still argue that the challengee is still not "affected" by merely participating in a duel and are thus not targetable while bowed with the action on Duelist Training, but I suppose someone will need to clarify.

Edited by Totengraber

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I think the count game question is very easy:

It has no target so can't be cancelled.

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1 hour ago, avz said:

I think the count game question is very easy:

It has no target so can't be cancelled.

It has no target at the time of the effect activation, but the effect does have a target.

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" Kuroi Mori  Changing the conflict type does not affect what other conflicts the attacker can declare. What matters is which conflict type was originally declared. "

The way someone told me that it was ruled on GenCon was:

Declare Mil -> Kuroi mori into Political
Only Political left to Declare. 

I think we need official FAQ here. 

Edited by Dydra

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3 minutes ago, Dydra said:

" Kuroi Mori  Changing the conflict type does not affect what other conflicts the attacker can declare. What matters is which conflict type was originally declared. "

The way someone told me that it was ruled on GenCon was:

Declare Mil -> Kuroi mori into Political
Only Political left to Declare. 

I think we need official FAQ here. 

But that is exactly what the clarification says.... once you declare a particular attack, that is what you declared. Changing it has no subsequent affect on what you are allowed to declare later. 

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Yeah, maybe I read it wrong at work lol. Good point. 

Makes sense why Kuroi Mori is such a Powerhouse. 

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It was also specifically mentioned during one of the L5RLive videos by Brad to work that way, so if you're looking for an official ruling, it's already been given :)

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5 hours ago, shosuko said:

I posted this in the other thread about Shameful Display.

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This is relevant to the resolution of the effect, but not the actual targeting. There are separate rules for selecting an eligible target, being that:

  • Quote

    A card is not an eligible target for an ability if the resolution of that ability’s effect could not affect the target at all. 

     

So I'm curious whether the temporary modification of the skill value counts as making some affect on the target, which would make a bowed character an eligible target.

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1 hour ago, LuceLineGames said:

So I'm curious whether the temporary modification of the skill value counts as making some affect on the target, which would make a bowed character an eligible target.

I'm not sure I follow...  Can you clarify?  Is this specifically about Shameful Display?  Or is this about some other effect?

For Shameful Display - honoring an honored character, or dishonoring a dishonored character would have no effect.  If they can be effected by the status change, then the status change is the change - not the temporary stat boost.

Is this about some other card effect?

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