Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Matrim

rule: shamefull display

Recommended Posts

k couple of questions.

first does the once per turn thing apply to its action.i guessed so but my oppo tried to fire it again when I swung at it the second time in the same turn. We avoided the issue as I was using just my crane scout so it was blank that time. But I did think I would check.

second I vaguely recollect if I am using it on defence then there must be 2 chars min present but if mine is , say, honoured then I can still dishonour an oppo char.

 

cheers for any pointers..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The main condition is that you need two targets, and the action needs to do something to change the board state.  If you have 2 honored targets at the field, it still works, and you can dishonor one.  But if you have an honored target and a dishonored target, you MUST honor the dishonored and dishonor the honored for it to be a valid action.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

I still find it strange that having expended the action is not in and of itself considered a change tothe board state. Heh.

They don't want you performing actions that do nothing.  This is typical in FFG Games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's because the rule says that the effects of the ability must have the potential to change the game state. Expending a use of an ability is not an effect of it (and neither are paying costs and discarding an event card after playing it), so it doesn't meet the requirement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Manchu said:

Maybe it is tied to the notion of ending sequences with consecutive passes.

There is that, but it shows up in games where that isn't a thing.

I don't think its a bad rule.  There was some enlightenment jank in the CCG where you'd unbow an unbowed character just to play an action, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mirith said:

The main condition is that you need two targets, and the action needs to do something to change the board state.  If you have 2 honored targets at the field, it still works, and you can dishonor one.  But if you have an honored target and a dishonored target, you MUST honor the dishonored and dishonor the honored for it to be a valid action.

Actually that's not true. From the rule reference section on targets on page 16:

" If an ability requires the choosing of one or more targets, and there are not enough valid targets to meet all of its targeting requirements, the ability cannot be initiated. This initiation check is made at the same time the ability’s play restrictions are checked."

So you need both a valid dishonor and a valid honor target. 

Edited by Klawtu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Matrim said:

the card says choose 2 participating targets, that is the section that relates to your quote, not 'choose a char that can be honored and choose a char which can be dushonored'

True but there need to be enough valid targets and here's the section on valid targets:

" A card is not an eligible target for an ability if the resolution of that ability’s effect could not affect the target at all. (For example, a bowed character cannot be chosen as the target for an ability that reads “Action: Choose a character — bow that character.”)"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And even if you add the requirement that a target must be able to be affected by the effect to be valid, this requirement is checked individually for each target. So the questions you have to ask yourself are "can char A be either honored or dishonored?" and "can char B be either honored or dishonored?" and if both answers are "yes", you're good to go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

And even if you add the requirement that a target must be able to be affected by the effect to be valid, this requirement is checked individually for each target. So the questions you have to ask yourself are "can char A be either honored or dishonored?" and "can char B be either honored or dishonored?" and if both answers are "yes", you're good to go.

Exactly. You need one target that's participating to honor and one target that's participating to dishonor. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Klawtu said:

Exactly. You need one target that's participating to honor and one target that's participating to dishonor. 

Yes, but when carrying out the effect, you aren't required to follow through exactly, but can then decide which one to honor/dishonor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can choose two dishonored characters. The targeting condition is the full effect, not the choice you eventually choose. The full effect is "honor or dishonor this character" twice. The only situation I can imagine where shameful display can't be used on two targets is if at least 1 is honored and there's a steward of law, as at least one target can't be honored, and neither target can be dishonored.

Edit: Nevermind. As a poster below pointed out, "become/becoming dishonored" is discrete from just "dishonoring" something, and refers exclusively to the dishonored state. You can still dishonor honored characters when Steward of Law is out.

Edited by player2636234

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Klawtu said:

True but there need to be enough valid targets and here's the section on valid targets:

" A card is not an eligible target for an ability if the resolution of that ability’s effect could not affect the target at all. (For example, a bowed character cannot be chosen as the target for an ability that reads “Action: Choose a character — bow that character.”)"

This argument has been hashed over numerous, and the ruling on it was  (last I heard) "As long as one effect triggers it is okay" from FFG.  Mainly, as you only have to choose 2 targets, and then something has to happen, not everything.

Awkward ain't it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

I still find it strange that having expended the action is not in and of itself considered a change tothe board state. Heh.

I believe the point of disallowing actions which don't create a change in the board state is to prevent unintended uses of the abilities.  I've seen different situations before, in other games, where the ability to use an action to do nothing can be advantageous.  Its good to cut the rules clearly.

It also has the side effect of stating what can and cannot be done in a tournament.  Because the ability can't be used without creating a change in the board state, a player who tries to use an ability in a tournament isn't caught in the "gotcha" of having wasted an ability either.  Imagine a tournament where a player attacks into Shameful Display, and the Attacking player swings with an honored Steward of Law.  The defending player, without realizing it, goes to activate Shameful Display - the game stops, they can't do it, they are protected from this mistake because activating it wouldn't do anything. 

Edited by shosuko

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, Shameful Display asks for the player to choose two participating characters during a conflict, as a trigger; it does not require for those targets to both be subjective to an honor status change. Therefore the trigger for Shameful Display is only two participating characters in a conflict happening at the province.

Once you have your two targets, for the effect to take place, you need to effect a change in the board state, that is when you need at least one target to be subjective a honor or dishonor status change. As long as one of the targets had a change of its honor status, the effects are valid and happen.

 

1 hour ago, Klawtu said:

True but there need to be enough valid targets and here's the section on valid targets:

" A card is not an eligible target for an ability if the resolution of that ability’s effect could not affect the target at all. (For example, a bowed character cannot be chosen as the target for an ability that reads “Action: Choose a character — bow that character.”)"

This is a different situation, because you only have one target and therefore you need it to be valid for the effects of the card to happen.

 

12 minutes ago, Mirith said:

This argument has been hashed over numerous, and the ruling on it was  (last I heard) "As long as one effect triggers it is okay" from FFG.  Mainly, as you only have to choose 2 targets, and then something has to happen, not everything.

That is the reason why Shameful Display allows you to honor or dishonor only one target and still have its effects happen.

 

1 hour ago, player2636234 said:

You can choose two dishonored characters. The targeting condition is the full effect, not the choice you eventually choose. The full effect is "honor or dishonor this character" twice. The only situation I can imagine where shameful display can't be used on two targets is if at least 1 is honored and there's a steward of law, as at least one target can't be honored, and neither target can be dishonored.

Actually, Steward of Law would not make it an impossible situation here, because it does not prevent the change of honor status from Honored to Neutral. Steward of Law prevents characters to be Dishonored, it does not prevent dishonoring characters. A subtlety that is important to keep in mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Mirumoto Kuroniten said:

Actually, Shameful Display asks for the player to choose two participating characters during a conflict, as a trigger; it does not require for those targets to both be subjective to an honor status change. Therefore the trigger for Shameful Display is only two participating characters in a conflict happening at the province.

Once you have your two targets, for the effect to take place, you need to effect a change in the board state, that is when you need at least one target to be subjective a honor or dishonor status change. As long as one of the targets had a change of its honor status, the effects are valid and happen.

That is absolutely a valid interpretation of the rules stated... and rereading things I may have found the part that makes it totally valid.

From the quote on valid targets emphases mine:

" A card is not an eligible target for an ability if the resolution of that ability’s effect could not affect the target at all. (For example, a bowed character cannot be chosen as the target for an ability that reads “Action: Choose a character — bow that character.”)"

Take the example of having 2 dishonored characters. So what you're saying is that because the resolution could affect either of them and as long as it does change the game state for at least one of them then it's totally valid? It doesn't matter that only one of the chosen targets will have their status changed just that a change will happen and that both could have been changed.

That actually makes sense. I will also gladly accept this interpretation because I happen to plan on using that card in both of my decks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

1 hour ago, Mirumoto Kuroniten said:

Actually, Shameful Display asks for the player to choose two participating characters during a conflict, as a trigger; it does not require for those targets to both be subjective to an honor status change. Therefore the trigger for Shameful Display is only two participating characters in a conflict happening at the province.

Once you have your two targets, for the effect to take place, you need to effect a change in the board state, that is when you need at least one target to be subjective a honor or dishonor status change. As long as one of the targets had a change of its honor status, the effects are valid and happen.

There actually is a requirement to check potential targets against the ability to see if they can be affected.  

Quote

Rules Reference: A card is not an eligible target for an ability if the resolution of that ability’s effect could not affect the target at all.

Edit: Just for illustrative purposes, if there was a character that said "this character can not be honored or dishonored", you couldn't pick that character as one of the targets just because the game state would change from the other target. To be an eligible target, it must be possible to affect the target/

Edited by LuceLineGames

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Klawtu said:

Take the example of having 2 dishonored characters. So what you're saying is that because the resolution could affect either of them and as long as it does change the game state for at least one of them then it's totally valid? It doesn't matter that only one of the chosen targets will have their status changed just that a change will happen and that both could have been changed.

Exactly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To push this even further, you actually do not have to change the game state to use Shameful Display; you actually can legally target an honored character and a dishonored character and decide to apply the honor to the honored character and the dishonor to the dishonored character.

Here's why:

Quote

A triggered ability can only be initiated if its effect has
the potential to change the game state on its own. This
potential is assessed without taking into account the
consequences of the cost payment or any other ability
interactions. (RRG page 16, Triggered Ability, 4th bullet)

So, in order for an ability to be initiated, it must be possible for that ability to change the game state. But that's all that matters -- it has to have the potential to change the game state, not to actually change it. And if someone uses Shameful Display and targets an honored character and a dishonored character then, at the moment when the ability's effect initiates (step 6 of the initiating abilities / playing cards section, pg 9, RRG) then yes, it passes this check. You have not yet decided who gets honored and who gets dishonored, and if you were to decide to honor the dishonored character and dishonor the honored character then the game state would change. What you do after that point is up to you; if you want your Shameful Display ability to do nothing you could make it do so.

It's not a terribly meaningful situation, however; the only use for such a thing is if you wanted to use it to waste an action window slot without passing, but such behavior isn't that useful in L5R at least in my experience so far. But it's a neat exercise mentally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Khift said:

To push this even further, you actually do not have to change the game state to use Shameful Display; you actually can legally target an honored character and a dishonored character and decide to apply the honor to the honored character and the dishonor to the dishonored character.

Here's why:

So, in order for an ability to be initiated, it must be possible for that ability to change the game state. But that's all that matters -- it has to have the potential to change the game state, not to actually change it. And if someone uses Shameful Display and targets an honored character and a dishonored character then, at the moment when the ability's effect initiates (step 6 of the initiating abilities / playing cards section, pg 9, RRG) then yes, it passes this check. You have not yet decided who gets honored and who gets dishonored, and if you were to decide to honor the dishonored character and dishonor the honored character then the game state would change. What you do after that point is up to you; if you want your Shameful Display ability to do nothing you could make it do so.

It's not a terribly meaningful situation, however; the only use for such a thing is if you wanted to use it to waste an action window slot without passing, but such behavior isn't that useful in L5R at least in my experience so far. But it's a neat exercise mentally.

Three things make this incorrect. 1) you cannot honor or dishonor a character in that state, 2) you must carry out as much of an effect as you can, and 3) you must change the game state. I'm paraphrasing, but to the best of my knowledge.

Edited by LuceLineGames

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...