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Lady Rebels

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I get that some people relate to characters on a very superficial level, e.g., "the character's a girl and I'm a girl so she's relatable." Of course, there are a lot of deeper, more meaningful factors that make a character relatable.

But we're not even really talking a out characters, just namless "extras" filling out squads. I'm not sure why they need to be relatable in the first place, at least not on some kind of one-for-one personal basis. If you can't identify with a Rebel soldier fighting against the Imperial tyranny unless X% of the sculpts are female, it may very well be some kind of political hang up.

Edited by Manchu

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Or it could be, you know, that miniature gaming involves many hours of assembling, painting, and customizing your army and being super into the theme and look of your model makes the whole thing a lot more gratifying.

If things were as beep-boop as all that people would just play 40k with a bag of green army men from the dollar store. 

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Sure, and all those long hours and all that thought and effort ... seems weird it would be a superficial as, "hey my toys implicitly have the same kinda private parts as me."

Full disclosure, I'm a dude and my favorite 40k army is SoB.

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25 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Sure, and all those long hours and all that thought and effort ... seems weird it would be a superficial as, "hey my toys implicitly have the same kinda private parts as me."

Full disclosure, I'm a dude and my favorite 40k army is SoB.

Every reason to be really into any particular faction/model/whatever is just as superficial as the other, and that part happens before you decide to spend all those long hours.  In fact, being really into a faction is what ensures that people will even bother to begin with.

It really doesn't have to be political, at all.  There's a lot of identity wrapped up in miniature games, it's important that people can find models/factions they love, and even ones that they hate.  It keeps people engaged.  You're going to have some people that are more of the WAAC'ers that literally don't care what anything is, but you're also going to have a ton of people more into the fluff that buy models based on whether they like them.

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Yep, I am in the latter category. I like the idea of an all-female militant religious order, especially inasmuch as, in contrast to Space Marines, Sisters are biologically just normal humans. Without Space Marines, I doubt I would care about Sisters as much. Space Marines are this superhuman brotherhood. They provide a stark contrast to Sisters and Sisters seem incredibly heroic because of it.

But with SW, I don't think gender has any similar aesthetic/symbolic meaning.

Edited by Manchu

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On 8/31/2017 at 4:04 PM, VanorDM said:

There are two female models for rebel troopers in the coreset... At least that's what someone who saw it at gencon said.  Looking at one of the pictures from FFG there's 4 models that could be a woman in the set.  With the heavy coat and all it's actually hard to say.

Trench coat signifies squad leader. And both of them had beards at the demo so... That being said the core set seems to be based around a loose interpretation of Endor troopers, with the walker and empire strikes back luke being added for balancing purposes. I still we'll get some female and alien rebel troopers, just give the game some time. x wing didn't have any  female pilots on release of its core set, but howl runner was in wave 1. 

Edited by FlyingAnchors

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The game as only just been announced, how the h.e.l.l does this subject even come up.

 

  • Queen Amidala - Prequels
    Hera Syndulla  - Rebels
  • Sabine Wren - Rebels
  • Ahsoka Tano - Rebels / Clone Wars
  • Jyn Erso - Rogue One
    Princess Leia - OT
  • Mon Mothma - Saga
  • Adi Galia - TPM
  • Depa Bilaba - TPM
  • Yaddle - TPM
  • Numa - Clone Wars
  • Mara Jade - Legends
  • Aayla Secura - Prequels
  • Luminara Unduli 

List goes on...

When Star Wars was being made in the 1970s the role of a female in the military was that of a support class (analyst, nurse) but kept away from front line, this is why when you look at the rank and file of the military make up of the Imperial Army (which was heavily influenced by the Nazis in the 1940s) you don't find (if any) Female characters in the uniform. This was later addressed in Books, Comics, Games and of course Episode 7

The main women of power in the Original Trilogy were in politics, which again is why there is a distinct lack of "Military" leader, back in 1977 Carrie Fisher made Princess Leia a kick *** female lead! the actual character was written as a support, purely through her acting skills. This then in turn laid the paving stones for actors like Sigourney Weaver to portray the kick *** character in the Alien franchise.

Star Wars was also guilty of not utilising actors of different race either, with Billy Dee Williams being one of an handful of actors of race been seen in the film. Although there were background artists portraying Stormtroopers, Imperial Royal Guards, Gamorean Guards etc...

The change in female character leads is only coming about now because of the SJW's claiming they are marginalised and miss represented and you should also be happy to note that the new era going forwards will introduce characters of different race, sexuality and gender which will become more fore front and shoved down our throats to make sure that the tick boxes are filled so that the SJWs don't march against Star Wars and/or Disney.

But before creating the post about a game that isn't released, set in an era that was written in the 1970s when the world worked differently, maybe just hold the brakes and do the research. I would imagine FFG will do what they have done for Imperial Assault and make up characters to join the squads.  

Edited by VirMortalis

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13 hours ago, Shadin said:

Lol that you think wanting characters in a game that you can better relate to in order to provide deeper immersion is political. 

  Lol at your reading comprehension skills or intellectual dishonesty?  You want to relate to nameless plastic figures? You can't see that gender identity politics is a driving force for some in many aspects of their lives, and that gaming might be affected?  You think I was making a blanket statement?  Bless your heart. 

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1 hour ago, qwertyuiop said:

  Lol at your reading comprehension skills or intellectual dishonesty?  You want to relate to nameless plastic figures? You can't see that gender identity politics is a driving force for some in many aspects of their lives, and that gaming might be affected?  You think I was making a blanket statement?  Bless your heart. 

Oh, get off it and drop that 'bless your heart' southern dismissive bull.  Most people relate to the character they're playing in some way.  In tabletop RPGs it's to the extreme, but even in CRPGs people enjoy that connection.  I don't know if you've ever played other miniature games, I'm assuming not since the idea of relating to nameless plastic makes you clutch your pearls, but people like to get excited about the fluff and models and that keeps them interested in the hobby.  Saying "there should be a plethora of diverse models so that almost everyone can find something they like and can get into" is not gender identity politics, it's just a good idea.

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If you build or even lovingly convert a miniature, paint it as good as you can, make a backstory for it then yes you can be "attached" to it, this is of course more the case with heroes, great monsters than your standard trooper but it still can be done for them, I know people who did this for all of their minis in skirmish games with small model count and a campaign where your characters evolve.

And I know people that put parts of their regular opponents on their minis/their bases to form a narative.

Edited by Iceeagle85

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8 minutes ago, Iceeagle85 said:

If you buidl or even lovingly convert a miniature, paint it as good as you can, amek a backstory for it then yes you can be "attached" to it, this is of course more the case with heroes, great monsters than your standard trooper but it still can be done for them, I know people who did this for all of their minis in skirmish games with small model count and a campaign where your characters evolve.

And I know people that put parts of their regular opponents on their minis/their bases to form a narative.

I see this a lot, too, including people naming/creating narratives for individual models in skirmish and lower count model games (like 40k Kill Team).  It's really fun to see people personalize individual units for an ongoing campaign. 

I'm guilty of only fielding models that I really love, despite it meaning that netlists will inevitably destroy me.  I just can't get into playing with dolls just because they have good stats, I need to be able to get more into it than winning.

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1 hour ago, Shadin said:

I'm guilty of only fielding models that I really love, despite it meaning that netlists will inevitably destroy me.  I just can't get into playing with dolls just because they have good stats, I need to be able to get more into it than winning.

I do that to and because the people I play against just play for fun it's not that big of a problem for me.

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3 hours ago, Shadin said:

I see this a lot, too, including people naming/creating narratives for individual models in skirmish and lower count model games (like 40k Kill Team).  It's really fun to see people personalize individual units for an ongoing campaign. 

I'm guilty of only fielding models that I really love, despite it meaning that netlists will inevitably destroy me.  I just can't get into playing with dolls just because they have good stats, I need to be able to get more into it than winning.

I would love to see something like a SW version of INQ28 (Inquisitor with 28mm minis) using the legion plastic or something skirmishy like necromumda and the likes :)__

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6 hours ago, Shadin said:

Oh, get off it and drop that 'bless your heart' southern dismissive bull.  Most people relate to the character they're playing in some way.  In tabletop RPGs it's to the extreme, but even in CRPGs people enjoy that connection.  I don't know if you've ever played other miniature games, I'm assuming not since the idea of relating to nameless plastic makes you clutch your pearls, but people like to get excited about the fluff and models and that keeps them interested in the hobby.  Saying "there should be a plethora of diverse models so that almost everyone can find something they like and can get into" is not gender identity politics, it's just a good idea.

I was referencing the OP and his/her inferred apprehension in being labeled a SJW.  There's usually a social/political angle to that. 

I've played other miniatures games. I'm just not so arrested in my development that I need or desire to relate to them or characters within them. Being interested in a hobby and relating to the figures are two entirely different things.

While having myriad options in models to appeal to the broadest demographic possible is a great idea, people getting upset about either the appearance of too little diversity or the idea that too much diversity is being forced into a game can possibly do it from a position of identity politics or anti-identity politics.  I saw some posts which seemed to reflect that in some way so I said something. I can spell it out further if needed. Would you care for a mint julep?

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If OP said they were disappointed that Legion didn't feature a specific model of made-up laser gun because they just arbitrarily wanted it, they'd get plenty of constructive advice on how to mod it. But if you say you wish Legion featured women because it would be more enjoyable, you get mean comments. There's a bitter political reaction to this topic.

In terms of an actual solution, this is commonly done in other minis games. Look around for heads from other models or other games that look right. Remove the head from one of your Rebel troopers and then glue on the replacement. It'll make your squad unique. You spend hours customizing your armies in any tabletop minis game, so it's always your prerogative to make it be exactly what you want. If you can put a squad of pink-armored stormtroopers onto the board, you can make a Rebel trooper be a girl. If you think you'll get questioned at Organized Play events for modding something, then get an extra dudetrooper mini to swap back in during tournaments.

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4 hours ago, Nostromoid said:

If OP said they were disappointed that Legion didn't feature a specific model of made-up laser gun because they just arbitrarily wanted it, they'd get plenty of constructive advice on how to mod it. But if you say you wish Legion featured women because it would be more enjoyable, you get mean comments. There's a bitter political reaction to this topic.

In terms of an actual solution, this is commonly done in other minis games. Look around for heads from other models or other games that look right. Remove the head from one of your Rebel troopers and then glue on the replacement. It'll make your squad unique. You spend hours customizing your armies in any tabletop minis game, so it's always your prerogative to make it be exactly what you want. If you can put a squad of pink-armored stormtroopers onto the board, you can make a Rebel trooper be a girl. If you think you'll get questioned at Organized Play events for modding something, then get an extra dudetrooper mini to swap back in during tournaments.

1.Having **** forced down your throat tends to leave a bitter taste.

2. The way you pose a question is important. "How can I mod these figures to look feminine?" Reads totally different from "Why didn't FFG represent women equally?"

The first one reads "I want to enjoy this game and would love female troopers." An honest claim that doesn't make assumptions.

The second reads "FFG is sexist!" Another empty accusation, based on assumptions without evidence.

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I wouldn't mind having mixed gendered squads for rebels.
In rebellions and insurrections like this it's more common to find a higher female to male ratio amongst the actual fighting troops (but still not a 50/50)

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11 hours ago, Nostromoid said:

But if you say you wish Legion featured women because it would be more enjoyable, you get mean comments. There's a bitter political reaction to this topic.

I think it's more a bitter reaction to "SJW" perceptions and expressions than just blue-vs-red political in nature. Heck, in the OP's first post he expresses concern about being shouted-down for his SJW viewpoints, aligning himself with that belief-system.  And in another post, you have a different poster that says they'll "attack" anyone with an opposing viewpoint - which might also be considered an SJW-tactic. 

Sure, there will probably always be those individuals who express exclusive and sexist beliefs.  But I doubt that they represent anything more than a minority, and they're easy to ignore and it's unlikely that you'll ever change their opinion. I think a general negative reaction is due to some thinking they'll get attacked for having differing opinions; they'll have a belief-system pushed on them; that they'll be labeled in a broad category that includes the exclusive and sexist. And they'll react in kind to that form of attack. You see this kind of back-and-forth behavior across many forums.

I'm not sexist, nor do I identify with SJW-expression. But I can identify and understand the lash-back.

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2 hours ago, OddballE8 said:

I wouldn't mind having mixed gendered squads for rebels.
In rebellions and insurrections like this it's more common to find a higher female to male ratio amongst the actual fighting troops (but still not a 50/50)

The best modern example is the Israel Defense Forces.  Women have been involved since 1948.  92% of the positions they have available are open to women.  Women make up roughly 30% of the IDF soldiers but only roughly 15% are front line troops versus support.  The IDF does have all female fighting units.

Another example (putting politics aside) is FARC the Colombian Terrorist or Freedom fighters depending on your political view who has been fighting since the 60s has at one time a reported (80s documentary) 10% of women fighting against the government.

IMHO, it will never be 50/50 no matter what anyone says.   Also, you cannot put modern new found sensibilities to story lines or events from 40yrs ago. 

If you want to live in the fantasy that everything is equally distributed and equally distributed 50/50 or whatever ratio you feel you need, then you need to create a new IP and some new conflict with some new story line because even in the real world, you are not going to find it.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, TurboCooler said:

If you want to live in the fantasy that everything is equally distributed and equally distributed 50/50 or whatever ratio you feel you need, then you need to create a new IP and some new conflict with some new story line because even in the real world, you are not going to find it.

Others have already said this:

I think it'll be on the player/modeler to represent their own gender-diverse force, if that's what they want. There's already been some indication that female troopers will be present in the core box, and hopefully there'll be more women present in the waves of releases to come. Shell out more cash, model your own 50/50 Rebel force, and tell your friends and opponents about your force's makeup. Or, go Imperial and tell those interested that all of your stormtroopers are women; have them lead by Asajj Ventress; and present a 100% female force if that's what you want. Cut off plastic womens' heads and torsos from compatible game-lines and mod your own troopers, if that's what you want to express in your Legion game. Bolster your force with some droids that you declare to have "female programming" if that's what you want. Go nuts.

I wouldn't expect FFG to do the work for you. They're probably a lot more focused on producing minis that faithfully represent the Star Wars universe; that provide options with different troop types; that represent the wide range of aliens and monsters in Star Wars.

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57 minutes ago, K Peterson said:

Others have already said this:

I think it'll be on the player/modeler to represent their own gender-diverse force, if that's what they want. There's already been some indication that female troopers will be present in the core box, and hopefully there'll be more women present in the waves of releases to come. Shell out more cash, model your own 50/50 Rebel force, and tell your friends and opponents about your force's makeup. Or, go Imperial and tell those interested that all of your stormtroopers are women; have them lead by Asajj Ventress; and present a 100% female force if that's what you want. Cut off plastic womens' heads and torsos from compatible game-lines and mod your own troopers, if that's what you want to express in your Legion game. Bolster your force with some droids that you declare to have "female programming" if that's what you want. Go nuts.

I wouldn't expect FFG to do the work for you. They're probably a lot more focused on producing minis that faithfully represent the Star Wars universe; that provide options with different troop types; that represent the wide range of aliens and monsters in Star Wars.

Or, if there are indeed female models included in the mix of troops in a squad box (for example), just find someone to split the costs with and you keep all the female models and they keep all the male ones...

If you want an all-female force, I mean.

I don't think anyone here is asking for an all female force. Or even a 50% female force.

Just for the occasional female model to be included in the rebel side.

 

EDIT: And I find it interesting (and slightly disturbing) that any discussion that starts out with "why are there no female models" or "will there be female troopers mixed in" always ends with a bunch of "if you want all-female armies, you can mod them yourself, it's not that hard" type responses.
As if people just cannot see the "are there female models" posts without making the assumption that anyone who asks automatically wants all-female forces...

Edited by OddballE8

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30 minutes ago, OddballE8 said:

I don't think anyone here is asking for an all female force. Or even a 50% female force.

Then you're ignoring or not paying attention to some of the posts that have already been made in this thread: 

I'm not making up arguments/solutions just for giggles. Sure, a 100% female force might be a bit of hyperbole - but who knows, maybe someone does want to do that? I'm not ridiculing their decision; I'm saying a modeling approach is the way to achieve that.

 

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I have been reading this thread for a few days so I may have forgotten a post or two... but has anyone that wanted inclusion, say that it must be 50/50? I am just wondering why this 50/50 thing became something to argue against or argue about at all? I have only seen people arguing against 50/50 not for 50/50.

As far as I can remember when it was mentioned one of the seven troopers in a unit might be a female, everyone that wanted or had asked about the inclusion of females seemed appeased.

It still kind of baffles me as to why people who want inclusion are pushed against so hard by the other side of the argument. In this specific case, what is the downside to making sure there are some female models in the core box for the sake of inclusion? If females are included, who is getting hurt? Who loses out?

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