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demon3o5z

Lady Rebels

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1 minute ago, demon3o5z said:

If a few models have a slightly different shape or longer hair to imply gender in the same way as a beard, as long as it doesn't become a pinup character, I think that would be great.

Sure, although when Leia wore that kind of helmet on Endor, you couldn't even see her hair, it was tucked up in it.  So per canon you shouldn't see long hair.  

I guess my point is that I'd be completely fine with women troopers, as long as they don't give them triple D breasts so you can actually see them or something.  I know there will be a number of female heroes that you can field, so it's not like it's going to be 40k's sausage fest.   

And again someone from gencon did say there were women in the rebel troopers so it may be that the models are more obvious than what I can see in a picture.  But as long as you can reasonably say it's a girl, then I think that's good enough.  Because in combat gear it should be hard to tell given the sizes and such.

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I don't pretend to be in touch with SJW-ness, or the best approaches for gender equality (in gaming)...

But I think that environment would be more a factor for inclusiveness - or barrier-removal - than gender representation in the figures. The attitudes and receptiveness of the male gamers in gaming stores, or at tournaments, where Legion is being played. The don't-be-a-****-factor playing more of a part than miniature gender representation in Legion by FFG.

Frankly, if gender representation really is a factor in minis, then I would think it would be more productive to represent a variety of female heroes, rather than rank-and-file. Because there might be more identification for the female gamer with strong female heroes. I don't know. I think that regardless of gender - if you're a Star Wars fan - you'll probably buy a bunch of heroes of different genders, anyway.

Edited by K Peterson

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6 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

Don't want to derail this... But you're dealing with a lot of inertia on both sides of this.  I've seen a girl at a number of X-Wing events, so they do show up for them.  I've never seen anyone do anything that I'd think would make them uncomfortable, and quite frankly this 'sexist gamers' is as much a stereotype as is 'girls don't game' and just as harmful.

Because all it really does reinforce the idea that girls aren't welcome at the LGS when they most times are.  Sure you may have the occasional social misfit, but those are normally dealt with and they exist everywhere.  But when people talk about how sexists gamers are it does little more then drive women away because they keep hearing how badly they'll be treated.

But regardless of all that, society still seems to view war gaming as something for boys, so it can be harder for a girl to get into it because of preconceived notions about the hobby.  

Not to derail further, but I think you're right. The gaming community has a history, and a stigma of sexism associated with it, even though there are now a lot of us that want to see the hobby opened up. Trying to clear its name so to speak, is difficult, especially when we do have those misfits that seem to go out of their way to make the whole community look bad.

To put this back in the context of the thread, I think more models that represent women respectfully on the table (instead of half naked battle witches or whathave you), might help fight against that stigma. Even if game stores had a special event once a month, where women got to use tables for free, would they really want to if all they saw on the table were sexualized depictions of women? Some would look past it and shrug it off, sure, but even I'm put off by a lot of what some companies put out. I think Star Wars is a great setting to put female models on the table that aren't overly sexualized.

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4 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

To be fair, I think that whole thing was vastly over exaggerated and few people actually felt that way.  But those who did were very loud and everyone kept giving them the soapbox to shout from.

Same thing at the LGS, IME I've never seen a girl treated poorly or even differently because she's a girl.  If someone did act that way we'd take him aside and deal with it... We wouldn't make a deal about it and we wouldn't keep referring to the bad behavior.

I mean what's going to be more uncomfortable for someone...

A) Have someone behave badly, then have that person taken to the side and spoken to and then either apologizing or perhaps being asked to leave or...

B) Have someone behave badly and then everyone else keeps repeating "I can't believe you said 'She's got nice boobs!!!' don't you know how rude that is"

my go to phrase is just "dude, don't be an *******".  That said, you are right, bringing too much attention to it just makes it look like you are trying to be a white-knight.

I think another aspect is the way guys talk when there are not girls around.  It normalizes a lot of things.  Don't get me wrong, I get "locker talk" or whatever.  I'm just as much of a pig as any other guy, lol.  But you also hear a lot of sexist things that should be called out for what it is.

But that said, it may just be my area that is terrible.  But I've got 3 different stores I visit and they are all sausagefests.  Plus, I've never seen any girls play in any of the streams for big tournaments (I may just be missing something.  I don't watch most of them)

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2 minutes ago, Cade Bulkin said:

However, in my experience, no one ever says anything to that guy and if you do, people will defend him (even if they don't agree, just because he is their friend).

May be an age thing too?  My LGS is all pretty much 30+ who hang out at it.  We're also all married or in a committed relationship and most of us have kids...  

2 minutes ago, Cade Bulkin said:

We won't need to keep a stereotype from causing an issue, but we also need to acknowledge that there is an issue.

True, and unfortunately by not saying anything that issue gets reinforced and the LGS is thought of as the boys only club, which helps no one.   But things are moving in the right direction... You see more and more girls doing streaming/twitch for video games and that was always a boys only thing.  I think you'll see the same with tabletop games, it's just a smaller market to start with so there's naturally fewer women who will get into it... Fewer in total numbers not in %'s.    Since there's fewer of them it's harder for those who want to play to do so, because in part of the stereotype which leads them to believe they won't be welcome in the first place.

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12 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

Because all it really does reinforce the idea that girls aren't welcome at the LGS when they most times are.  Sure you may have the occasional social misfit, but those are normally dealt with and they exist everywhere.  But when people talk about how sexists gamers are it does little more then drive women away because they keep hearing how badly they'll be treated.

My dude, have you ever actually had a conversation with a woman about her experiences in gaming? Multiple women? Because in my experience if, for instance, you talk to a woman who's been playing pen and paper RPGs for a while she'll have Fun Stories. Guaranteed. 

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7 minutes ago, K Peterson said:

Frankly, if gender representation really is a factor in minis, then I would think it would be more productive to represent a variety of female heroes, rather than rank-and-file.

I don't know if that would help or not... But I started a game of IA with my son and daughter, and she was a lot more interested in playing because she could be a girl.  So I  think having relatable characters does in fact help.

But who really relates to the rank and file soldier?   I don't know, but I expect the hero is more important in this case.

Just now, mxlm said:

My dude, have you ever actually had a conversation with a woman about her experiences in gaming? Multiple women? 

Yes, I play or have played RPG's with a number of women.   I have also seen at least one girl at nearly every X-Wing event I've been too, excluding the Wednesday game night, but at my LGS there's only like 4 of us who play then anyway.

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5 minutes ago, demon3o5z said:

To put this back in the context of the thread, I think more models that represent women respectfully on the table (instead of half naked battle witches or whathave you), might help fight against that stigma. 

So, how are you going to feel if FFG releases a slave-Leia as an accompaniment for Jabba the Hut in an expansion? ;)

Otherwise, I don't think that oversexualized miniatures will be much of a concern with Legion.

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7 minutes ago, K Peterson said:

So, how are you going to feel if FFG releases a slave-Leia as an accompaniment for Jabba the Hut in an expansion? ;)

Otherwise, I don't think that oversexualized miniatures will be much of a concern with Legion.

Sad. Just . . . so sad. And a little embarrassed.

But yeah, I'm hoping it's not something that will really come up in this setting.

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The problem with having no females as the rank and file troops is that it affirms the notion that a female must be extra special to even to even get a mention but males can contribute regardless of not having any character at all.

Still it's a start having female main characters in the first place. So praising the good and all that! Loved the fact the last 2 films have had decent female characters and it's not been about their gender.

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In my experience there are two types of gamers

 

type one is the most common. It is in their interest to grow the community of gamers as much as possible so they will be able to play more often. These people are some of the kindest and inclusive people I've ever met. 

The second type don't want their community to change ever so they don't have to meet new people and they can just spend time in their clique alone. These people are jerks to everyone. Women are fake fans to them, guys just don't play the right way.  Younger people don't "mesh with the group" and people new to the hobby aren't "worth the time. 

I think it's important to remember that the real problem is jerks not "sexists" in our community. Guys who have never chucked dice get shunned the same as women. The remarks are usually about something other than their breasts but shunned nonetheless. 

We wont scare women away if we stop acting like they are being targeted every time someone insults them. 

If one of these miscreants insults a woman and the response is "how dare you treat a woman that way" the woman will assume she has been singled out and attacked. 

The appropriate response is " don't let him bother you, he is a d-bag to everyone "       This lets the woman know she is valued by the rest of the group and let's the d-bag know he has behaved inappropriately  

 

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18 minutes ago, Sk3tch said:

The problem with having no females as the rank and file troops is that it affirms the notion that a female must be extra special to even to even get a mention but males can contribute regardless of not having any character at all.

no it doesn't. You know why? Because this is a wargame and the rank and file are grunts. And grunts are expendable. If the lack of female grunts says anything it says that women are to valuable too society to put on the front line where they are likely to be shot to pieces.

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I hope there will be plenty of variety of genders and species for everyone to be cool and play nicely with our little plastic soldiers.

As an aside regarding variety: Do you guys think we'll have any rebel or imperial droids on the front lines so-to-speak? Most of the GCW era droids were specialists or used in support of the people on the front lines unless I remembered wrong.

 

(Maybe this should be it's own thread--sorry.)

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3 hours ago, Orcdruid said:

no it doesn't. You know why? Because this is a wargame and the rank and file are grunts. And grunts are expendable. If the lack of female grunts says anything it says that women are to valuable too society to put on the front line where they are likely to be shot to pieces.

I think you're reinforcing exactly what he was getting at. Real equality is when even the rank and file are male and female, not just the heroes. Most of the games, movies, shows, and books since Disney took over SW have done an excellent job at making Star Wars all inclusive. This is just one reason of many, that in my opinion, Star Wars is better in the last 3 years than it had been in the previous 20.

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It would make sense for them to have at least 1 female miniature with the Rebel Troopers unit. I can't imagine the rebellion would turn anyone away from fighting, considering the size of the Empire.

I could be wrong but I always thought the guys who have the attitude that this is for boys not girls is because those guys would be too embarrassed to lose to a girl.

From what I understand, Leia will be a commander like Luke and Vader. I assume she will be out in an expansion set when they release the core set.

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I am a father of two.  One boy and one girl.  In my family we have 21 first cousins.  5 are male and 16 women.  If we talk about the children of each there are more girls than boys in the entire family.   One of things we do when we get together for the holidays is play board games.   It has been something we have always done because it was something we can all do together.  Often that meant video games as well as board game especially when we all had a Wii.

My wife plays board games.  We met in college and that was our thing way back when because I did not really watch TV.  I rarely do.  My parents did not like me and my siblings to watch TV and D&D was far more acceptable.  Because my wife is natural ham she loved D&D and was a great GM too before she opened her business and had little time.

Here is the thing, I don't care how inclusive you make it, most women/girls are not going to enjoy playing miniature games.  It will always be mostly male.  I am into miniatures and have played Warhammer, Horde, Dust etc. you name it over the years.  I have never excluded my daughter or my wife --- they are simply are not interested.  When I have introduced them to X-Wing or my female cousins or other women to X-Wing I have got "Uhm. yeah, Okay...not for me" or the occasional "this is stupid!"

However, no issues with pretty much any board game.  I have 100 board games on the shelf and they are all in with those and my wife and daughter have played in local Catan or Hive tournaments.  My daughter has introduced many of her female friends to board games and I have hosted all female board game nights with my daughter or wife's friends as I was the one serving Pizzia or other food items.   Again, none of them are interested in miniatures at all.   I usually get ribbed or laughed at when my wife or daughter's friends see my collection in a plexi-glass case I keep them in as I like to paint miniatures even if I do not play the games.  Some will say cool or like the paint jobs but that is as far as it ever goes.....they, like my daughter and wife, are just not interested.  Actually when we are in my basement playing X-Wing or some other miniature game or I am at my painting station, I usually get eye rolls from the wife or daughter.  They don't complain and have purchased me miniatures as gifts but they simply don't get it -- which is fine.  It is something for my son and me to do together.

Now, that does not mean this is universally true and if there are women who want to play they should be welcomed and be allowed to play.   Excluding people who want to try anything never made sense to me.   This does not mean there are not jerks in pretty much any hobby I do not care if it is golf, tennis, basketball, volleyball, bocce ball or board/miniature gaming.   You find them in every hobby.

Women/Girls are not always going to be attracted to every hobby and IMHO least so regarding miniatures because many feel it is way to geeky.  I don't care what you say, there are just some jobs (6.7% women in STEM) or hobbies that will never attract many women.  We should not make it so those who do wish to play feel like they cannot play, but if you believe it would ever be 50/50 you must be joking.  And, I do believe many men on the forums who argue otherwise are SJW, PC types who have no idea what they are talking about or cherry pick one incident true or imagined and believe it is universally true.  Make it as inclusive as you feel you believe it needs to be, and it still will not matter except for some people to satisfy some PC meme.  This will always be a male majority type of hobby.  This is like one of my cousins who runs a business where you can go and hang out to drink wine and make pottery.  No matter what she does, she tells me there will never be more than the token guys dragged into her shop by his wife/gf to make pottery.  Pottery will never be mostly male and miniature gaming will never be even 10% women.  Anyone who wants to should be allowed in either hobby, but lets not pretend that men and women are not different and like different things -- and that to me is okay.

 

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6 hours ago, demon3o5z said:

I know I'm gonna get shouted down as an SJW, but I wanna bring this up anyway. I get that Stormtroopers are helmeted, so anyone can be behind the mask, but I'm kinda bummed we don't have female models for Rebel troopers. 

Considering we've only seen the starter kit, I wouldn't get too worked up yet. There's lots more in the pipeline, with rumor being we'll see expansion pack info possibly as soon as tomorrow. Plenty of room for lady troopers to fill out the roster. Be patient.

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2 hours ago, Wired4War said:

I think you're reinforcing exactly what he was getting at. Real equality is when even the rank and file are male and female, not just the heroes. Most of the games, movies, shows, and books since Disney took over SW have done an excellent job at making Star Wars all inclusive. This is just one reason of many, that in my opinion, Star Wars is better in the last 3 years than it had been in the previous 20.

I think you don't understand what you are talking about. What you are talking about is pandering not equality.

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7 hours ago, Iceeagle85 said:

I'm not irked by it but I wouldn't mind more female and more alien rebels. 

And about 40K is for dudes, I know quite the number of players who really want some plastic Sister of Battle models for years now. But yes it's a shame that the Cadians, which recruit everyone from a young age on, are only male.

Also Necromunda was fully revealed, half of the game is a female team. So if anyone has a hard on for more female minis there you go. 

I do think there is room for a few female sculpts thrown in as rebel troopers. Just because rebels kind of feel more individual and more various than the imperial stuff. Not just women though, but aliens as well. They managed to throw a duros into the box but you basically get two which kinda sucks. I'd prefer more sculpt variety than what FFG may give us.

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Also geek and nerd culture and video gaming etc have all become more mainsteam over the past ten years and socially acceptable. I noticed this happening as the big bang theory show became pretty popular. However miniatures/tabletop wargames are still in that obscure zone where it's still looked upon differently. A lot of you are mentioning board games but there are board games where you move miniatures on hexes or tiles, so where exactly does that fall into the mix?

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Fortunately, there are no mono-gender institutions (like Space Marines) in SW - at least of those likely to be represented in Legion.

That said, one thing to keep in mind is we are talking about monopose figs. It is somewhat important that each fig be fairly nondescript so the fact, in that in armies of monopose figs, the duplicate sculpts don't stand out. This is more a function of pose than, for example, gender (although could be a problem with alien species) but when it comes to what makes a 1:48 figure "clearly" female sometimes you are talking about "sore thumb" type poses.

Having some gender ambiguous trooper sculpts is probably the best solution, combined with having female characters well represented. An example would be a female Imperial officer (army version of beloved Howlrunner).

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9 hours ago, demon3o5z said:

I know I'm gonna get shouted down as an SJW, but I wanna bring this up anyway. I get that Stormtroopers are helmeted, so anyone can be behind the mask, but I'm kinda bummed we don't have female models for Rebel troopers. It's by no means game breaking, and I know doing more sculpts is more money, it's just kinda disappointing. It's kinda like how in Rogue One, when they were gathering troops for that assault on Scarif, all the soldiers that showed up were dudes. It didn't break the movie for me, but the lack of women (besides Jyn) detracted me, and pulled me out of the film for a moment.

After the "40k is for dudes!" mentality, I was just thinking it would be nice to get out ahead of this sort of thing.

With unbuilt minis, I know we can customize, but it'd be great if we wouldn't have to. This comes a lot from the "Star Wars for all" perspective, and I think the fewer barriers to that, the better.

Anyone else feeling the same way? Not necessarily turning your nose up at the game, just kinda irked by it?

Why do you expect things from a Star Wars game that were not in the movies?

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