Bids at nationals level?

[ceejlekabeejle 473]

Wondering if I could get the thoughts of some more experienced competitive players! I'm going to the UK nationals in a couple of weeks, and I'm very much looking forward to it. This will, however, be the biggest tournament I have played in: thus far I've only participated in regional or store champs, and I've no idea what to expect in terms of bids. In our local area, it's rare for a fleet to be below 390pts (for reference, I took a 393pt fleet to my last tournament, and secured first player in every single game), but I get the impression that bids at nationals are likely to be lower. What have been other players' experiences (both in the UK and elsewhere), and is there somewhere I can find stats on this sort of thing? Thanks in advance!

[Ginkapo 9,321]

@Tokra Do you have stats for Euros?

[Green Knight 9,746]

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

@Tokra Do you have stats for Euros?

@Aresius will always meet someone with a lower bid, no matter how many points he bids.

This is a fact.

[Tokra 2,147]

Sadly only the what i posted in the EC thread.

The TO wanted to post the full list or a few more statistics. But i am not sure if he did so far. I will ask him.
We had one picture of a few statistics and with bids. But as far as i remember the biggest bid was around 23 from the Italian "hardbidders" .

 

I went back to giving up on the bid game. I had 398 at the nationals. And just picked the missions so that they will give me the biggest bonus i can get. And it does not matter if i am first or second player this way.
With 398 i had two (out of 5) times the choice. One had 399 and one had 400 points. Aresius had 397 this time (far less than i would have thought on his list). The last two were at 390 and 391.

These 6 lists are no indicator for the rest. But the bids were really low on the German nationals (from what i saw).

[ceejlekabeejle 473]

7 minutes ago, Tokra said:

Sadly only the what i posted in the EC thread.

The TO wanted to post the full list or a few more statistics. But i am not sure if he did so far. I will ask him.
We had one picture of a few statistics and with bids. But as far as i remember the biggest bid was around 23 from the Italian "hardbidders" .

 

I went back to giving up on the bid game. I had 398 at the nationals. And just picked the missions so that they will give me the biggest bonus i can get. And it does not matter if i am first or second player this way.
With 398 i had two (out of 5) times the choice. One had 399 and one had 400 points. Aresius had 397 this time (far less than i would have thought on his list). The last two were at 390 and 391.

These 6 lists are no indicator for the rest. But the bids were really low on the German nationals (from what i saw).

Thanks for this. It sounds like you had a similar situation to what I have seen in most of my (lower level) tournaments: bids were either relatively low or very high.

The particular list I'd like to take would be roughly 393. It very much likes to go first, but it's not too disadvantaged by going second. I can cut it down by 9 points by taking off turbolasers, but I'd rather not, and I'm just trying to assess how feasible that bid might be.

[Tokra 2,147]

1 hour ago, ceejlekabeejle said:

Wondering if I could get the thoughts of some more experienced competitive players! I'm going to the UK nationals in a couple of weeks, and I'm very much looking forward to it. This will, however, be the biggest tournament I have played in: thus far I've only participated in regional or store champs, and I've no idea what to expect in terms of bids. In our local area, it's rare for a fleet to be below 390pts (for reference, I took a 393pt fleet to my last tournament, and secured first player in every single game), but I get the impression that bids at nationals are likely to be lower. What have been other players' experiences (both in the UK and elsewhere), and is there somewhere I can find stats on this sort of thing? Thanks in advance!

The bid really depend on the local meta and the list you are playing.
If you have a list that want to be last and first (6+ ships with one hard hitter), you have to make sure that you are first player. And if other played against it, and lost, they might go down with their bid as well to have a better matchup against these lists. And so on and so on. In the end you will have a bid of 30+ points, just to make sure that you are first. But at this point you are giving up way to much to be first player.

I prefer a good selection of missions and dont worry if i have to go first or second. But this means as well, that other might outbid me with more ships and do the last/first game. To prevent this you need at least 7+ ships (not realistic if you want a big ship). And you HAVE to kill at least one ship really fast, or you might end in losing way to much, of an ISD or a Liberty is going in with the first/last trick.

 

From "normal" experience i would say that the standard bid is around 10 points. With 390 points you have a good chance (but not 100%) to decide if you go first or second. And i would not try to go to low. Especially as rebel you could just add 1-2 more tranports instead of going down further and further.

 

One good reference i can give you is the data from the Vassal Summer Tournament: Average points 393, lowest points: 379.
I would count this tournament at least national level. 40+ player, and a lot of top players in it.
From the current vassal tournament i have only the data from the euro pool. But here again: Average points: 394, lowest points: 383.

[Doppelganger 305]

I found this to be very helpful:
http://cannotgetyourshipout.blogspot.de/2017/03/bidding-for-initiativemailbox-3.html

Edited August 31, 2017 by Doppelganger

[ceejlekabeejle 473]

Thank you folks, this is all really useful advice!

[Aresius 138]

1 hour ago, Tokra said:

I prefer a good selection of missions and dont worry if i have to go first or second. But this means as well, that other might outbid me with more ships and do the last/first game. To prevent this you need at least 7+ ships (not realistic if you want a big ship). And you HAVE to kill at least one ship really fast, or you might end in losing way to much, of an ISD or a Liberty is going in with the first/last trick.

^This.

When i go to the european i set my list for going first to do the last/first activaction with my liberty, then the first day i play for second in all the match i do (378, 380, 382 bid), so i decide to improve the upgrades in the list and have missions who give me a lot of points, so i don't have the problem when i find someone with a high bid than mine.

 

[Green Knight 9,746]

1 hour ago, Aresius said:

^This.

When i go to the european i set my list for going first to do the last/first activaction with my liberty, then the first day i play for second in all the match i do (378, 380, 382 bid), so i decide to improve the upgrades in the list and have missions who give me a lot of points, so i don't have the problem when i find someone with a high bid than mine.

 

^ This.

NEVER build that list that can't go 2nd.

But if you do, make it AT LEAST a 20 pt bid.

[thecactusman17 3,192]

25 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

^ This.

NEVER build that list that can't go 2nd.

But if you do, make it AT LEAST a 20 pt bid.

And then *practice going second anyway*

[Green Knight 9,746]

58 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

And then *practice going second anyway*

QFT!

[ceejlekabeejle 473]

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

^ This.

NEVER build that list that can't go 2nd.

But if you do, make it AT LEAST a 20 pt bid.

Yeah, my fleet prefers going first, but equally can happily play second - it's well suited to my chosen objectives. So my plan is to go slightly lower than average, but not too far under - I don't want or need to sacrifice too many points for first player.

[ceejlekabeejle 473]

Thanks everyone for the advice - given me plenty to consider! 

[teeseeuu 63]

Our bids are 25+ to ensure first. It's been a race to the bottom here. 

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

5 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

And then *practice going second anyway*

Yup.

Pretty much every list I've designed for first player, learning to play it as second player has made me better with it even if I don't go second. 

Being able to play your list as second player also gives you the flexibility to say "nah, you go first" against that strategic or Interdictor opponent that really wants to go second.

[thecactusman17 3,192]

On 8/31/2017 at 10:15 AM, thecactusman17 said:

And then *practice going second anyway*

I’m my case,  this was entirely unnecessary. 

But then,  a 28 point bid would only have done me good on Thursday.