Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
SkyCake

reusing the same ISD model

Recommended Posts

First I just want to say that I think the new ISD expansion is a home run, grand slam, no doubt about it. The upgrades we've seen so far look great and the paint job is stellar! I think FFG will have no problem selling a ton of these units, probably even to some who don't even play Armada.

 

That said the recycle of the old model is worth pondering over. When I first saw the article and noticed the models were the same I quickly shrugged and moved on. It didn't matter all that much to me, probably still doesn't. But after some consideration, and seeing others touching on this topic in other threads as well, I think it's worth questioning "why did they reuse the original ISD expansion model?"

 

A number of reasons have been put forward. At the forefront of these is "the need to make money". But that argument rests on a false premise that only by recycling the model can they reap any profit. If that were true then virtually every new ship expansion they create, such as the brand new mc75 wouldn't make much money. So that can't be the case.

Perhaps it's that "they can't make AS MUCH money" producing a new model, but I have my doubts about that scenario as well... I'm not sure what the costs of producing a new model would be... I'll assume they are significant, but so much that recycling the old model is clearly the way to go? I have to imagine that producing a whole new model would have outweighed these additional costs by way of ultimately selling more units. The Chimera design is beautiful, but ultimately not something I care much about. The main selling point here it seems to me is the cards, and that will probably be enough to sell the majority on this expansion. But for those who are ok with their existing ISD expansion and cards, paint jobs probably won't be enough to sell them on this expansion.

There is still plenty of reason to buy the original expansion. It comes with some pretty good cards that get regular usage(avenger, boosted comms, Vader). There is also good reasons to buy the new expansion(Cymoon, Kuat, VADER). So keeping some ISD's at the warehouse and then either packaging them as the original expansion, or spraying on the Chimera pattern then packaging them as the new expansion depending on which expansion you need at the time makes sense from a supply chain point of view and thus an economic one as well.

But there are dangers in sacrificing aesthetic values for economic ones. Something I keep hearing both players and onlookers of the game remark upon is "how amazing the game looks on the table". With ships of various sizes and squadrons duking it out for victory amidst a backdrop of asteroids, debris, stations, and the blackness of space, one has to admit, the game looks truly spectacular. And so I can't help but feel that the recycling of the old model is somewhat of a missed opportunity in this regard, to add to that rich and vibrant tapestry. The irony btw of packaging Thrawn, one who deeply appreciates art and aesthetic values along with a recycled model merely painted overwith the Chimera pattern, is biting. The Chimera design is decent, but not much in the way of adding anything truly new and exciting to the battlefield. Most people could probably hire a third party to put the design on one of their existing ISD's for not too heavy a cost. But a brand new model fully painted is probably out of the reach of most players. At the same time, an ISD l such as that from rogue one, is something players have been clamoring over for some time now.


Anyways, I'd love to hear others thoughts on the matter, or from those who might be able to better shed some light on why it was done this way.

Edited by SkyCake

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I think an economical view is needed for the Chimera  expansion. You have to consider they're adding 3 of both ship cards and ship tokens included in the expansion so that people specifically don't have to buy multiple copies and can use the older sets they already spent a good chunk of money on.  So with this in mind, they're already not planning on it selling as hard as the original ISD set, which, many people who bought them bought 3+. So by using that same model, and merely adding a new painting process, they've cut a relatively huge chunk of the cost for producing these out of the picture.

When it comes down to it, FFG knew that a large portion of the player base wanted Chimera and Thrawn. Logically they'd have also realized that in order to maintain any semblance of the canon or even legends lore they'd have to use an ISD model.

Likely they considered benefits of releasing an altered model of the ISD and the obvious level of backlash they'd receive for "replacing" the original ISD pack with a better costed new ship, and then weighed that against the benefits of simply releasing a repaint, and making it work in conjuction with the older release.

If I had to guess, making a new model, and the backlash they could predict from it either not matching canon or making the older ISDs useless was far too costly compared to simply releasing what is really just a bolster expansion. It makes the old ISDs many bought 2-4 copies of better with even a single purchase of the new one. Very cheap to fabricate because no extra molds or mechanical processes had to be purchased/developed cost comes down to materials and game R&D... easy peasy.

My 2 cents

Edited by Darth Sanguis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a repaint just like they do all the time in X-Wing.  This one came with alternate configurations and new fighters.  It's all good in my book.  I like the Chimera paint job, and as usual with most repaint expansions by FFG, it comes with some wonderful cards. I use my ships for other things than just Armada, and I'm a terrible painter.  So, they get my money.  If there were slight variations to the original ISD model, that would be great, but the unique paint scheme is more important.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even though i think that Thrawn and the Chimera is going to be an awesome expansion, the truth is i agree with Skycake.

It is just an ISD with a new coat of paint on it and extra cards.

That being said, i am still going to get two copies of this expansion along with the MC75.

Now, FFG lets get that Super Star Destroyer out there.

I know that they are working on that thing, trying to get the right size and balance for that ship.

I have no doubt that the EXECUTOR is coming soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One, it saves them money first and foremost by not having to design a model as well as not having to get molds made for it and adding yet another model to their line. The only time needed to make this item possibly being the stencil for the paintjob as well as the new squadron ships which would help reduce the time needed for making the product, I assume. And lets be honest, who here aside from really big Star Wars nerds (myself included) would be able to tell the difference between a ISD-1 and a ISD-2 model? Most people probably won't in the same way they won't notice the difference in Vader's costume or the difference in the Stormtroopers' helmet molds for the films, so then why make a new model that will cost more money when no one would notice or really care except for us super nerds? The best way to look at it is that this ship is a 'Aces' variant like we see in X-wing so now we know the general formula for rereleased ships coming with a new paintjob and new squadrons. 

 

I mean if we wanted to get real nitpicky we could also argue that the model is wrong since the Chimera emblem is on the top of the ship whereas it should be on the bottom but they decided to change it to make the ship more distinct and look better from the board rather than being completely accurate to it. 

Edited by Animewarsdude

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I picked up a second ISD about a month ago, with vague designs on running a double list but never got the time. Initially, I thought this pack is decent, but the ISD is wasted on me. Having thought about it, I wonder will we see a rise in 3x ISD lists thanks to the refit cards. Certainly, the prospect of double lists seems more viable, and it could be a fantastic series of options for CC groups.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

I picked up a second ISD about a month ago, with vague designs on running a double list but never got the time. Initially, I thought this pack is decent, but the ISD is wasted on me. Having thought about it, I wonder will we see a rise in 3x ISD lists thanks to the refit cards. Certainly, the prospect of double lists seems more viable, and it could be a fantastic series of options for CC groups.

Especially since they now have the Seventh Fleet task force titles that might at least incentivise two ISD lists. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

I picked up a second ISD about a month ago, with vague designs on running a double list but never got the time. Initially, I thought this pack is decent, but the ISD is wasted on me. Having thought about it, I wonder will we see a rise in 3x ISD lists thanks to the refit cards. Certainly, the prospect of double lists seems more viable, and it could be a fantastic series of options for CC groups.

With the release of Thrawn, I think we may actually see a revival of the 2 ISD fleets.... being able to steer and shoot or shoot and activate squads could really improve the quality of activation to the point where 2 is enough.... especially seeing as a few 2 activation fleets have already done very well recently. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, RookiePilot said:

It's a repaint just like they do all the time in X-Wing.  This one came with alternate configurations and new fighters.  It's all good in my book.  I like the Chimera paint job, and as usual with most repaint expansions by FFG, it comes with some wonderful cards. I use my ships for other things than just Armada, and I'm a terrible painter.  So, they get my money.  If there were slight variations to the original ISD model, that would be great, but the unique paint scheme is more important.

Is it confirmed that the bottom of the Chimaera is plain?

I'm personally curious: I was thinking maybe they were using a season 4 Chimaera scheme or something (maybe blowing up the Massasi fleet got Thrawn more privs?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, DUR said:

Is it confirmed that the bottom of the Chimaera is plain?

I'm personally curious: I was thinking maybe they were using a season 4 Chimaera scheme or something (maybe blowing up the Massasi fleet got Thrawn more privs?)

BvFPWuL.jpg

The picture of the product box shows imagery continuing on the bottom, but there aren't any pictures of the actual model bottom to confirm.  I'm inclined to believe the box art, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I for one am really happy for any way to get more ISD's on the table: I personally was hoping for a Rogue One "Patrol Refit" ISD that's crappier just so it can be cheaper and I can stuff more of them on the table! (Or maybe, "rookie crew" officer slot: ship cannot take upgrades, loses 3 hull points, minus cost to the ISD- something like that).

Rebs have a fine time keeping effective fleets thematic: imps, a little tougher (well, Rebels thematic is easy- but not OT).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, SkyCake said:

So keeping some ISD's at the warehouse and then either packaging them as the original expansion, or spraying on the Chimera pattern then packaging them as the new expansion depending on which expansion you need at the time makes sense from a supply chain point of view and thus an economic one as well.

Conversely, why would they design and print a new model for what is essentially the same ship? What reason is there to do so?

Regarding the section I quoted above, I PROMISE you that isn't how these models are manufactured and painted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, rjl51869 said:

Even though i think that Thrawn and the Chimera is going to be an awesome expansion, the truth is i agree with Skycake.

It is just an ISD with a new coat of paint on it and extra cards.

That being said, i am still going to get two copies of this expansion along with the MC75.

Now, FFG lets get that Super Star Destroyer out there.

I know that they are working on that thing, trying to get the right size and balance for that ship.

I have no doubt that the EXECUTOR is coming soon.

Am I reading you correctly, two copies of the Chimeria and the MC75? Or one Chimeria and one MC75?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, codegnave said:

Conversely, why would they design and print a new model for what is essentially the same ship? What reason is there to do so?

One might as well ask why they decided to make two mc80 models instead of just repainting home one and calling it the liberty. After all, it's just wings(sarcasm).  The ISD I and II may not be as different as liberty and home one, but they are different enough so that people could immediately appreciate the difference between the two.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

One might as well ask why they decided to make two mc80 models instead of just repainting home one and calling it the liberty. After all, it's just wings(sarcasm).  The ISD I and II may not be as different as liberty and home one, but they are different enough so that people could immediately appreciate the difference between the two.

But that is a separate ship.

I agree a new model would have been nice. But it goes against precedent with FFG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LiveWire X said:

Am I reading you correctly, two copies of the Chimeria and the MC75? Or one Chimeria and one MC75?

yes, i have two copies of EVERY expansion.  Two copies make sense because of the ship cards and the upgrades.

plus the Chimera is cool and so is the MC75

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, codegnave said:

But that is a separate ship.

I agree a new model would have been nice. But it goes against precedent with FFG

Didnt the millennium falcon for x-wing get minor structural updates along with its repaint?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, SkyCake said:

Didnt the millennium falcon for x-wing get minor structural updates along with its repaint?

Correct. That was the interesting break from tradition. However that was largely a product of them getting the from-the-movie model for the new ship, combined with the age of the old sculpt. This does not set a new precedent for re-release packs. To be fair, there was no precedent at all for armada, but I think this now sets that precedent.

"When I worked on that first X-Wing Falcon, all I had to base my design off of were the movies and some production photos of the original models. Anything that wasn't clear had to be inferred. With the new Falcon, we had very clear orthographic renders of the 3D model from Lucasfilm. This meant we could perform a definitive comparison of our original Falcon and the model from The Force Awakens, and we decided there were enough differences in the detail and paint application that it warranted creating new molds and paint tools."

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/9/6/the-garbage-will-do/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, RookiePilot said:

BvFPWuL.jpg

The picture of the product box shows imagery continuing on the bottom, but there aren't any pictures of the actual model bottom to confirm.  I'm inclined to believe the box art, though.

Ironically, the image on the box is a ISD-I

8 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

Didnt the millennium falcon for x-wing get minor structural updates along with its repaint?

Yes, and a new radar dish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Well, I think an economical view is needed for the Chimera  expansion. You have to consider they're adding 3 of both ship cards and ship tokens included in the expansion so that people specifically don't have to buy multiple copies and can use the older sets they already spent a good chunk of money on.  So with this in mind, they're already not planning on it selling as hard as the original ISD set, which, many people who bought them bought 3+. So by using that same model, and merely adding a new painting process, they've cut a relatively huge chunk of the cost for producing these out of the picture.

When it comes down to it, FFG knew that a large portion of the player base wanted Chimera and Thrawn. Logically they'd have also realized that in order to maintain any semblance of the canon or even legends lore they'd have to use an ISD model.

Likely they considered benefits of releasing an altered model of the ISD and the obvious level of backlash they'd receive for "replacing" the original ISD pack with a better costed new ship, and then weighed that against the benefits of simply releasing a repaint, and making it work in conjuction with the older release.

If I had to guess, making a new model, and the backlash they could predict from it either not matching canon or making the older ISDs useless was far too costly compared to simply releasing what is really just a bolster expansion. It makes the old ISDs many bought 2-4 copies of better with even a single purchase of the new one. Very cheap to fabricate because no extra molds or mechanical processes had to be purchased/developed cost comes down to materials and game R&D... easy peasy.

My 2 cents

Yup...I think Darth Sanguis hit it right on the head.

The fact that by releasing the Chimera Expansion the way they have, FFG have (maybe not so sub-consiously) given us - players that have purchased multiples of the original ISD1/II Expansions peace of mind.

How? Peace of mind that our Models will not be rendered obsolete and turned into rather expensive paperweights.

In fact, with all the awesome new cards they've been given a new lease on life and a new purpose.

48 minutes ago, melminiatures said:

Ironically, the image on the box is a ISD-I

Yes, and a new radar dish.

My friend, this simply means potentially more business for you. :D:D:D

36 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

But not a scratch.

Hehe. Tsk Tsk...Lando really shouldn't have made a promise he couldn't keep!

And what happened to your 'one hand from the grave'??? :D

Edited by Alpha Xg1
For typos and better clarity!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestally working in a casting house I can tell you that the mold is the most exspensive part of the whole deal anywher from $20,000 (small matchplate sand casting) to many $100,000s (die casts, perm molds) dependin on workmanship and matierial. So for ffg to shell out thatnkind of money for a minor asthetic change ( that many dont seem to care about) is bad sense. The paint job chaing is way cheeper and a quicker way to make it identifiealbe on the table. Also it looks good too. But seriously thats a big investment for essentially an upgrade kit, that will not move in the same quantity (its a unique paint scheme at best you might buy 2 compared to the blank slate Isd) all in all even extra ware on the mold from increased production will still result in less cost than making a new mold for an isd 1 variant. And would also cut into the already existin ISD model that they already paid for the mold to be made, this could lead to two modles that compete for the money needed for them to recoup their investment.

TLDR: too exspensive for projected sales to make a new mold

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...