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Prepainted?

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9 hours ago, Iceeagle85 said:

I wouldn't call the X-Wing paintjobs high quality, they are certainly not bad but not high quality more like around good tabletop standard, depending on how define it.

True. Higher quality than Heroclix and most other prepainted minis I've seen at least.

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19 hours ago, Iceeagle85 said:

I wouldn't call the X-Wing paintjobs high quality, they are certainly not bad but not high quality more like around good tabletop standard, depending on how define it.

Wouldn't even say good, it is all just flat colours with a heavy black wash. It is the equivalent of quickpainting and dipping your minis, something that is really easy to do.

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11 hours ago, Lumberjack Nick said:

Higher quality than Heroclix and most other prepainted minis I've seen at least.

That's true, but that's also like saying a mile is longer than a foot.

X-Wing mini's look decent enough, but they would be very easy to paint with some sort of mass production system, which means they are completely and utterly incomparable to Legion models.

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7 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Wouldn't even say good, it is all just flat colours with a heavy black wash. It is the equivalent of quickpainting and dipping your minis, something that is really easy to do.

True but I wouldn't want to sound to condencending, and beeing ships they do look decent enough in my opinion.

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12 hours ago, Iceeagle85 said:

True but I wouldn't want to sound to condencending, and beeing ships they do look decent enough in my opinion.

Oh they do look quite good, even, but this quality is very easily attainable, that is what I want to say. You don't need to develope more than the most basic skills (painting by numbers, essentialy, then dumping the whole thing into a can of quickshade, shaking of the excess and letting it dry) to achieve miniatures that look that good. I quickpainted a crew of Blood Bowl orcs (12 models) on a single Sunday (I would estimate 6 hours work since I slept in and made dinner in between), had them dry and ready to go by Tuesday for a demo game.

The only reason not to want to paint is not wanting to invest the time, which is fine, as time is the most valuable good we have. There are alternatives, though, and saying "I don't want to hire a comission artist because I don't want to" is frankly ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as the comparison between Legion and X-Wing/Armada. The latter have a maximum of 8 painted models per player in a game. That is only a little bit more than a single unit of infantry in Legion, of which both players are very likely to have multiples. A single model for X-Wing costs 15€. Lets be generous and subtract 7€ for cards and cardboard, putting the model value at 8€ (which is roughly the price at which "no material" deals on eBay go I believe). Knock it down to 6€ for bulk. The Stormtrooper pack comes with 7 miniatures with roughly the same amount of plastic and surface. The guesstimate for a painted price would be...42€, more than double of the price the pack is actually estimated to go for.
Now while Stormtroopers are roughly as difficult to paint as X-Wing ships, Rebel troopers are a lot more so, at least in a semi-automated process, hiking the price up further. These prices aren't sustainable if you want to get into a new market (being less expensive than your competetors is massive), so unpainted it is.

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3 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

The only reason not to want to paint is not wanting to invest the time, which is fine, as time is the most valuable good we have.

That is the reason I never repainted my X-Wing stuff, while I have often thought about it and have seen great repaints on the net I just have so much other stuff to build and paint. But who knows mabye one day I do a X-WIng with green markings.

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It seems there are to groups of people here: those that prefer prepainting (and wishes Legion was) and those that do not (and like that they are not prepainted). And you can come up with all kinds of arguments and solutions pro or con, but these two groups have just different preferences.

It is like trying to convince book-lovers that they should not read a book but instead watch a movie, and convince movie-lovers that they should read a book instead (of course some like both, but thats beside the point). This is unlikely to happen, even if the story of a book will never be filmatised and ever only available as a book. I will not be enough to convince movie-lovers to convert - no matter how great the story is.

I will never paint, no interest (and yes I have tried). I have no intention of going through the additional hazzle of getting the minis painted by someone (have even asked around locally and looked online). X-wing is prepainted (and ihmo they are georgeous) and the gameplay is great - the prepainting  of these minis  and the fact they were completely ready to play once you take them out of the expansion-pack, was what for the first time made me invest in a miniature game - and invest BIG I now have ;-D  

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3 hours ago, Sciencius said:

 

It seems there are to groups of people here: those that prefer prepainting (and wishes Legion was) and those that do not (and like that they are not prepainted). And you can come up with all kinds of arguments and solutions pro or con, but these two groups have just different preferences.

 

There’s also people like me who wish it was prepainted but dont mind playing with unpainted/painting them badly

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27 minutes ago, Jabby said:

There’s also people like me who wish it was prepainted but dont mind playing with unpainted/painting them badly

And i myself am a 4th group that simply couldn't care less, as long as the price is reasonable 9which admittedly puts me more into the "no pre-paints" camp, but not definitively).

Edited by Extropia

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5 hours ago, Sciencius said:

It is like trying to convince book-lovers that they should not read a book but instead watch a movie, and convince movie-lovers that they should read a book instead (of course some like both, but thats beside the point).

No it really isn't.  What it is more like is that movie-lovers want the people who want to read the book to pay 2 or 3 times more for the book, so they can watch the movie.

I'd have no objection to a premium set for Legion, just like they did for Dust.  But I don't think that sold very well and so I doubt that FFG will do it,. but if they do then that's great for those who want pre-painted models.  But they will be paying 2 or 3 times as much as I will for them.  

The issue has never been that no one thinks FFG shouldn't produce pre-painted models.  It's that those of us who don't want them don't want to have to pay that 2-3 times more for them, just to have put in the extra work of stripping them and then repainting them.  But those who do want pre-painted models seem to think that the rest of us should in fact pay to subsidise them.

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Agreed. I think a separate pre-painted set would be a boon for the game for those who refuse to paint their models and feel like spending extra. It would satisfy both sides of the hobbyist vs gamer rift but the unpainted ones should be tremendously cheaper. But we are also talking a large number of miniatures vs little skirmish games like IA and Xwing.  Do we even know if the models are going to be multi-part at this point?

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3 hours ago, Col. Dash said:

But we are also talking a large number of miniatures vs little skirmish games like IA and Xwing.  Do we even know if the models are going to be multi-part at this point?

FFG released pre-painted models for Dust Warfare (https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/dust-premium-miniatures/) and those would be at least as complex and in some cases more compex then anything in Legion, since you had Mech's and other walkers.  The size of the game in number of models would be about the same as Legion as well.

So FFG can in fact do it... But if you look at the prices you can see what it cost.  

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7 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

FFG released pre-painted models for Dust Warfare (https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/dust-premium-miniatures/) and those would be at least as complex and in some cases more compex then anything in Legion, since you had Mech's and other walkers.  The size of the game in number of models would be about the same as Legion as well.

So FFG can in fact do it... But if you look at the prices you can see what it cost.  

Yep. About 3 times he unpainted cost. 

FFG have obviously decided at its either impractical, or they just wouldn't sell enough starter boxes at $270ish to make it cost effective (and it really probably wouldn't).

 

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For me it's basically that X-Wing is Microtransactions and IA is not.

X-wing is like a $30.00 buy in.  After that it's like $14.00 per ship and they're really mostly sold singly.  

IA: $100 starter

(3) $50-60 expansion boxes 

(2) $25-40 expansions boxes

After that you have many micro transactions in the form of figure packs, but you've still got to get over the hump of the buy in and everyone else at the table does as well.  

X-Wing was basically made to be a tournament game with an easy starter buy, kinda like a CCG buy you always know what cards you're buying. 

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https://pocketmags.com/au/tabletop-gaming-magazine/free-sample-issue

 

Free sample link to verify, doen't contain the full article, just 2 pages. Also requires email sign up..

 

From the mouth of Andrew Navaro, Studio Head "There is no way we could do pre-assembled, pre-painted minatures with legion and have it be remotely affordable"

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FFG did not do the pre painted dust tactics stuff. That was done by dust studios and published/distributed by FFG. 

The line of pre paints to compair to with ffg as the producer would be the horror pre paints that were pretty terrible and expensive.

The paint jobs and sculpts in x-wing are  extremely well done and improving every wave. The u-wing and quad jumper have excellent weathering and paint deco. They are made by skilled workers with good equipment and design. 

Compare any recent x-wing against a micro machine and see the vast difference in quality.

If there is a market for pre-paints for legion i highly expect to see eBay brimming with “pro-painted” models.

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On 28/11/2017 at 4:30 PM, VanorDM said:

No it really isn't.  What it is more like is that movie-lovers want the people who want to read the book to pay 2 or 3 times more for the book, so they can watch the movie.

I'd have no objection to a premium set for Legion, just like they did for Dust.  But I don't think that sold very well and so I doubt that FFG will do it,. but if they do then that's great for those who want pre-painted models.  But they will be paying 2 or 3 times as much as I will for them.  

The issue has never been that no one thinks FFG shouldn't produce pre-painted models.  It's that those of us who don't want them don't want to have to pay that 2-3 times more for them, just to have put in the extra work of stripping them and then repainting them.  But those who do want pre-painted models seem to think that the rest of us should in fact pay to subsidise them.

Hehe, you are making a lot of assumptions here, and only seeing it from your own perspective. But I gather from your comment that the cost of the minis that are your only concern, then you must know that:

1) The impression of a high or low price is highly relative to the first announcement price point. 
2) If you think the present price reflect the cost of plastic-material and the process of molding it, think again.  
3) A business model comprising a regular set and a premium set will sell far fewer premium sets than regular set, thus the price of the premium set will higher than a single line series (Especially if the premium set is outhouse as there now are enties who each has to profit from the same item). So comparing with "Dust" costs are not relevant. 
 

On 30/11/2017 at 9:17 AM, Ralgon said:

https://pocketmags.com/au/tabletop-gaming-magazine/free-sample-issue

Free sample link to verify, doen't contain the full article, just 2 pages. Also requires email sign up..

From the mouth of Andrew Navaro, Studio Head "There is no way we could do pre-assembled, pre-painted minatures with legion and have it be remotely affordable"

Problem is, he has to say that, otherwise he would be undermining the design decision that were made many years ago. 

 

 

 


 

Edited by Sciencius

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40 minutes ago, Sciencius said:

Hehe, you are making a lot of assumptions here, and only seeing it from your own perspective. But I gather from your comment that the cost of the minis that are your only concern, then you must know that:

1) The impression of a high or low price is highly relative to the first announcement price point. 
2) If you think the present price reflect the cost of plastic-material and the process of molding it, think again.  
3) A business model comprising a regular set and a premium set will sell far fewer premium sets than regular set, thus the price of the premium set will higher than a single line series (Especially if the premium set is outhouse as there now are enties who each has to profit from the same item). So comparing with "Dust" costs are not relevant. 
 

Problem is, he has to say that, otherwise he would be undermining the design decision that were made many years ago. 

 

 

 


 

What are you talking about many years ago? The serious decision making about legion was only hashed out shortly after the split with GW. (Also in the article)

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1 hour ago, Sciencius said:

2) If you think the present price reflect the cost of plastic-material and the process of molding it, think again.  

Problem is, he has to say that, otherwise he would be undermining the design decision that were made many years ago. 

Some of your post made no sense to me, so i'm just going to touch on these ones briefly.

- Nobody thinks it reflects the cost of material and casting. It reflects the material, casting, design, staff costs, book printing, card printing, packaging, marketing, transportation and then a healthy profit margin on top. As it should.

- For the second point....i mean, if you aren't going to believe the literal words of the Studio Head, then i'm not sure there's any point even raising the issue. Either they DID think it'd be affordable and/or make money and deliberately chose not to do so because....who knows why....or he is right and they they DIDN'T think it would.

Is there even room for a third option there? Companies rarely choose the route of "you know, we could make more money by doing X, but lets not".

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2 hours ago, Sciencius said:

Hehe, you are making a lot of assumptions here, and only seeing it from your own perspective.

No I'm not making any assumptions here at all.  But if you think I am, then maybe you just don't understand what's being said...

Quote

But I gather from your comment that the cost of the minis that are your only concern, then you must know that:

No, it's one of my concerns but not my only one.  Another concern is the low quality that pre-painted mini's typically have.  Which means I not only have to pay more for them, I get the added joy of having to strip them before I can paint them.

Quote

1) The impression of a high or low price is highly relative to the first announcement price point. 

No it isn't, and this is simply a nonsense statement, as in it makes no sense at all.  

Quote

2) If you think the present price reflect the cost of plastic-material and the process of molding it, think again.  

Again another nonsense and clueless statement.  Of course the price doesn't reflect the cost of the actual materials and anyone out of highschool, or even most people in it would know that the bulk of the price of something is not the actual materials, but the cost of the labor that goes into making it.

Quote

3) A business model comprising a regular set and a premium set will sell far fewer premium sets than regular set, thus the price of the premium set will higher than a single line series (Especially if the premium set is outhouse as there now are enties who each has to profit from the same item). So comparing with "Dust" costs are not relevant. 

Yes it actually is, because it shows how much more a pre-painted set will cost compared to a unpainted one.  Now in theory if FFG did it themselves the price difference may be lower.  But they would naturally still be more expensive because they require more labor.  The amount sold may make the price even higher since they need to get a larger profit margin.  

But that in no way changes the fact that pre-painted sets will cost more due to the increase in labor costs.  It also doesn't change the fact that I will not pay more for something of lower quality, which means I have to put even more effort into it.

Quote

Problem is, he has to say that, otherwise he would be undermining the design decision that were made many years ago. 

Already been answered, but I'll say it anyway...

You're not only wrong, but are making your "argument" even weaker by making claims like this.  I put argument in quotes, because your collection of strawmen and simple nonsense barely qualifies as one.

Edited by VanorDM

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How about FFG didn't want to prepaint them? Who cares about other games that have paint or don't, or the profit margin, or any other reason you come up with. 

FFG made the decision not to paint them. Trying to convince people that FFG could or couldn't do it won't change the reality of the situation.

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I for one like that they're not prepainted, mostly because I do plan to try to do something unique with each my forces, while making sure they fit into what's canon.

Also, I look forward to seeing the Fabulous-Oh-First if anybody makes it. I mean, who doesn't want to see a Pink Vader leading Pink Stormtroopers with a huge Pink&White AT-ST?

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52 minutes ago, Alino said:

I for one like that they're not prepainted, mostly because I do plan to try to do something unique with each my forces, while making sure they fit into what's canon.

Also, I look forward to seeing the Fabulous-Oh-First if anybody makes it. I mean, who doesn't want to see a Pink Vader leading Pink Stormtroopers with a huge Pink&White AT-ST?

Stop giving away my plans;)

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