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2 minutes ago, LiveWire X said:

 I agree with this. I wish it were feasible to at least give the consumer to buy a prepainted set even if it's at a premium. I certainly would.

You CAN buy a prepainted set at a premium.  It's just not going to come from FFG.  Buy a core set and have an online painting service paint it for you.  Heck, you can probably find a local Warhammer 40k/Age of Sigmar player to do the painting for you for less money.  I can also almost guarantee that you'll be able to find painted units on eBay shortly after release.  No idea what the premium will be, but it's definitely a false statement to say that you won't be able to pay extra to get painted minis.

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10 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

Indeed you are correct.

But keep in mind something else.  FFG is a business.  If they look at the end of year reports after a year or two of legion and discover the money they spend on legion would make more profit in X-Wing, Armada, or something else.  Don't expect the pre-paint fans that were told to shove off to subsidize your fandom by buying products they don't want to paint.

I'm not saying the game is going to fail, or have only a short life.  Not at all.  But when games do go under, the fans always cry about how it could happen and why weren't more people interested in such a great product...well this time you have people up front tell you why they aren't interested.

You want them to do something that would substantially increase the cost to make each miniature.  In a game that involves a lot of miniatures on each side.  That increase in cost would demand an increase in price to maintain the margins they want to work with.

You aren't going to be able to move a product that is priced so high it's unattractive to even the target audience. Do you really think a Core Set for anything would sell for $150? You're going to sticker shock out most people that would otherwise have thought about purchasing that game.  And you're going to do so with a questionable quality of product.

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2 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

No idea what the premium will be, but it's definitely a false statement to say that you won't be able to pay extra to get painted minis.

Was just going to point this out myself when I hit the 'show reply' button and it wiped my reply out.

It is a complete farce that people can't buy a premium painted set of models, it's just as you point out not going to come from FFG.  There's plenty of places online that will paint your models for you, some will even go as far as to buy them, assemble them, and then paint them.

So if you're willing to pay for it, then by all means do so... But stop demanding that I pay for it too when I don't want it.  It is an irrefutable fact that the cost of the line would go up to provide painted models, and the quality would be much lower than I'd be willing to accept. 

But since you can buy it, and then pay the premium to get them painted, and I can avoid paying that premium because I'll paint them myself, it is simply ridiculous that anyone ask FFG to provide them painted models.  Now in theory a painted core set may end up running you less than a painting service will charge... But expecting me to subsidize your collection by paying more so you can pay less than a service will charge is pure selfishness at it's worse.

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9 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

Was just going to point this out myself when I hit the 'show reply' button and it wiped my reply out.

It is a complete farce that people can't buy a premium painted set of models, it's just as you point out not going to come from FFG.  There's plenty of places online that will paint your models for you, some will even go as far as to buy them, assemble them, and then paint them.

So if you're willing to pay for it, then by all means do so... But stop demanding that I pay for it too when I don't want it.  It is an irrefutable fact that the cost of the line would go up to provide painted models, and the quality would be much lower than I'd be willing to accept. 

But since you can buy it, and then pay the premium to get them painted, and I can avoid paying that premium because I'll paint them myself, it is simply ridiculous that anyone ask FFG to provide them painted models.  Now in theory a painted core set may end up running you less than a painting service will charge... But expecting me to subsidize your collection by paying more so you can pay less than a service will charge is pure selfishness at it's worse.

FFG Has already put prepainted sets out for other games that come with unpainted miniatures. Say what you will while looking threw your crystal ball but time will tell.

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26 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

You CAN buy a prepainted set at a premium.  It's just not going to come from FFG.  Buy a core set and have an online painting service paint it for you.  Heck, you can probably find a local Warhammer 40k/Age of Sigmar player to do the painting for you for less money.  I can also almost guarantee that you'll be able to find painted units on eBay shortly after release.  No idea what the premium will be, but it's definitely a false statement to say that you won't be able to pay extra to get painted minis.

While it's just semantics, I'll still point out that it's not a false statement to say that you cannot buy a pre-painted core set from the manufacturer, which was my implication. But yes, I'll agree, I can have them painted after I've bought them and paid someone else to do it, that does not eliminate my "pre" painted statement though.

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Just now, LiveWire X said:

While it's just semantics, I'll still point out that it's not a false statement to say that you cannot buy a pre-painted core set from the manufacturer, which was my implication. But yes, I'll agree, I can have them painted after I've bought them and paid someone else to do it, that does not eliminate my "pre" painted statement though.

Semantic arguments are rarely good arguments.  The reality of the situation is that you probably aren't buying most of your FFG product from FFG directly.  You're probably buying most of it from a local gaming store or Amazon or some other similar retailer/distributor.  I'm not sure that there is any practical difference between buying a FFG painted set from Store X versus buying a non-FFG painted set from Store X. 

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Just now, ozmodon said:

FFG Has already put prepainted sets out for other games that come with unpainted miniatures.

But if you're willing to pay 3 times as much... Because the Dust core was $80 and the Premium was $240, then by all means do so.  But don't expect FFG to do it, since they don't actually sell those Dust models any longer.

Sure they may do it, but I don't expect it, since Dust was not much of an sucess for them.  

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On 8/27/2017 at 6:03 PM, Guest Wrath87 said:

The have to pay someone to glue, paint and quality control pre-painted miniatures. On vehicles that's one a 50-100% mark up on the cost. Not too many curved surfaces compared to a character figure. No faces. Nice gaps between the armour usually to finish with a wash. Characters that have faces, hair and uniforms like the rebel troopers are a lot harder. If they do pre-painted it would have to look good like x-wing which would be harder because of the above. If it doesn't look good not only would the people who don't want pre-painted figures not buy it the ones who want pre-painted figures wouldn't buy it.

Agreed.  Non-painters seldom realize the difference between painting vehicles and figures.  In addition, I can't think of a company who sells painted figures that don't look like they were painted by the foot of a blind chimp.  Selling them unpainted saves us the time and money of having to strip a terrible paint job we had to pay for.

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Now i dont know if this has been brought up, but were the dust paint jobs consistant?

I know from experience in xwing and armada that if you want a cohesive paint scheme done across your army ffg's current painting partners are not going to satisfy.... even if you find packs from the same production lot.

 

If your going to spend the extra , as has been noted goto a service that will provide a quality over quanity aproach.

Edited by Ralgon

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Having bought and played tons of Heroclix, MageKnight, D&D minis, Star Wars minis and being a decent enough painter myself, I don’t wanna see Legion as a pre-painted model. Sure pre-painted collectible minis were great back twelve years ago when prices were still pretty low because of the collectible nature, but now with a game like Legion you can’t go collectible.

So that leaves bigger packages with windows or clamshells so you can see the paint job. More trans plastic for said windows and less art with the focus being on the figures. That’s a high risk chance that your minis are good enough. 

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On 8/30/2017 at 4:09 AM, ozmodon said:

FFG Has already put prepainted sets out for other games that come with unpainted miniatures. Say what you will while looking threw your crystal ball but time will tell.

I would be careful, throwing crystal is never going to end well. :P

 

 

Edited by Amanal

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On 8/28/2017 at 8:59 AM, Iceeagle85 said:

That's just stupid, I would love more prepainted minis of decent or better quality as I have tons of minis I should/would want to paint but it seems it's not doable or more companies would have done it.

The whole point of a game like this is to have full customization of it. Even if you got prepainted minis what are you going to do when you turn around and realize that you have to make the board as well?

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26 minutes ago, Lumberjack Nick said:

The whole point of a game like this is to have full customization of it. Even if you got prepainted minis what are you going to do when you turn around and realize that you have to make the board as well?

I know I'm playing miniature wargames for years know, but my comment was about someone saying we are against prepainted miniatures would because we are afraid of change in our little nichte and through this comment I treid to show that I, a miniature wargamer, wouldn't mind well prepainted minis because I play quite a few miniature wargames and I'm a slow painter.

And not everyone has a table/board many just go to their local shop or buy a mat.

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On 11/15/2017 at 7:18 AM, devin.pike.1989 said:

Legion is just not that kind of game. Look at 40k, warmahordes, bolt action, infinity or any of the other successful mini games out there. That is the market ffg is trying to break into. There is a demand for unpainted mini games so ffg wants to meet that demand.

Yes. Exactly!

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On ‎11‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 8:42 PM, Lumberjack Nick said:

The whole point of a game like this is to have full customization of it. Even if you got prepainted minis what are you going to do when you turn around and realize that you have to make the board as well?

LOL.  The whole point of the game is customizing it?  No need to worry about rules or gameplay, as long as I can take hours making my stormtroopers look exactly like everyone else's.  Terrain is easy and can be varied.  Papercraft is easy to do for buildings.  Other miniature games I've played used 2D terrain markers and indicators which worked just fine.  There are plenty of model kits, even some that are prepainted that can be used.  Making terrain, custom buildings, etc is WAY easier that painting figures.  Beyond that, I have the skills, patience, and ability for all of those elements... I don't for painting minis.

On ‎11‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 9:18 AM, devin.pike.1989 said:

Legion is just not that kind of game. Look at 40k, warmahordes, bolt action, infinity or any of the other successful mini games out there. That is the market ffg is trying to break into. There is a demand for unpainted mini games so ffg wants to meet that demand.

No one thought there was a market for pre-painted space combat miniatures prior to X-Wing.  In fact I remember posts about how stupid it was that they were going to be pre-painted and how people weren't going to buy it because of that.  What some people around here are saying is that there is a market for pre-painted miniatures also.  Now X-wing is beating the non-painted games, and Armada is making a decent showing against games that have been on the market for much longer and had established player bases.

Think about it.  A lot, if not most of the X-wing and Armada players are not people that played previous miniatures games.  What attracted them?  The fact that they were pre-painted.  It's part of the reason X-wing was able to hit #1 in the miniatures gaming market.

The market for non-painted minis is a niche market.  It always has been.  Is there demand for unpainted mini games?  Sure.  But there is also demand for painted mini games.  Why not serve both?  You see, you're conflating the painting of the pieces with the game.  They aren't tied to one another.  Miniature game doesn't have to equal unpainted minis.  X-wing and Armada proved this.  If the game is good, people are attracted to it.  But if there are barriers to entry, fewer people play it.  Unpainted is a barrier.

Look, I get it that painting is hard (heck, that's why I don't want to do it lol), and can be expensive (again, why I don't want to get involved in it).  But others can do it for relatively cheap prices, and FFG has a supply line with painters already established.  Do Heroclix and the previous star wars mini games paint jobs suck? Yeah, they do, but they are better than what I can do, and they work.  They look like crap at 2 inches, but look fine from a foot away. Heroclix can sell you 6 figures for $17.  They come assembled, painted, and with accompanying cards.  Legion gives you 7 figures for $25.  They are not assembled or painted.  Yeah, FFG plastics are higher quality, but by so much that heroclix can be assembled, painted, and yet still be significantly cheaper?

The cost argument doesn't hold up when you compare it to other products.  And when you don't pre-paint, you turn a lot of customers away.  Even more so when the elitists come out of the wood work to tell them to get lost when they voice their opinion on the subject.

 

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2 hours ago, kmanweiss said:

LOL.  The whole point of the game is customizing it?  No need to worry about rules or gameplay, as long as I can take hours making my stormtroopers look exactly like everyone else's.  Terrain is easy and can be varied.  Papercraft is easy to do for buildings.  Other miniature games I've played used 2D terrain markers and indicators which worked just fine.  There are plenty of model kits, even some that are prepainted that can be used.  Making terrain, custom buildings, etc is WAY easier that painting figures.  Beyond that, I have the skills, patience, and ability for all of those elements... I don't for painting minis.

No one thought there was a market for pre-painted space combat miniatures prior to X-Wing.  In fact I remember posts about how stupid it was that they were going to be pre-painted and how people weren't going to buy it because of that.  What some people around here are saying is that there is a market for pre-painted miniatures also.  Now X-wing is beating the non-painted games, and Armada is making a decent showing against games that have been on the market for much longer and had established player bases.

Think about it.  A lot, if not most of the X-wing and Armada players are not people that played previous miniatures games.  What attracted them?  The fact that they were pre-painted.  It's part of the reason X-wing was able to hit #1 in the miniatures gaming market.

The market for non-painted minis is a niche market.  It always has been.  Is there demand for unpainted mini games?  Sure.  But there is also demand for painted mini games.  Why not serve both?  You see, you're conflating the painting of the pieces with the game.  They aren't tied to one another.  Miniature game doesn't have to equal unpainted minis.  X-wing and Armada proved this.  If the game is good, people are attracted to it.  But if there are barriers to entry, fewer people play it.  Unpainted is a barrier.

Look, I get it that painting is hard (heck, that's why I don't want to do it lol), and can be expensive (again, why I don't want to get involved in it).  But others can do it for relatively cheap prices, and FFG has a supply line with painters already established.  Do Heroclix and the previous star wars mini games paint jobs suck? Yeah, they do, but they are better than what I can do, and they work.  They look like crap at 2 inches, but look fine from a foot away. Heroclix can sell you 6 figures for $17.  They come assembled, painted, and with accompanying cards.  Legion gives you 7 figures for $25.  They are not assembled or painted.  Yeah, FFG plastics are higher quality, but by so much that heroclix can be assembled, painted, and yet still be significantly cheaper?

The cost argument doesn't hold up when you compare it to other products.  And when you don't pre-paint, you turn a lot of customers away.  Even more so when the elitists come out of the wood work to tell them to get lost when they voice their opinion on the subject.

 

Are you really trying to compare actual miniature game quality figures to heroclix?  I think you are going to have a bad time in this hobby. Here is the thing about niche markets. They can provide very high profit margins especially with a unique and popular ip like star wars. This is not a prepainted game and it is not likely that it will ever become that. With that in mind, make your decision about where to spend your money. The rest of us will enjoy our hobby that includes assembly and painting.

Edited by devin.pike.1989

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Personally I don't think the lack of prepainted miniatures is going to hurt Legion.  The various GW games and Warmachine have built a huge following for that kind of game, and Runewars is doing pretty well, as far as I can see.  There are a bunch of people in my group (including me) who greeted the initial announcement with "God, finally, just take my money, what took you so long".  Legion is going to do just fine.

I'm not opposed to the idea of prepainted Legion models per se, but they add no value for me or a lot of other people, so if they went this route I'd rather they do it the Dust way.  Bring out a 'premium' prepainted line and let the people who want it pay for it.  Keep the existing price level for unpainted ones for everyone else. 

The fact that they did this for Dust and know how well the prepainted vs painted sold, and decided not to do it for Legion, makes me wonder whether FFG already knows that it wouldn't be worthwhile for Legion, but that's just speculation.  Maybe it's something they're keeping in their pocket and down the road they'll come out with a premium pre-painted line.

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On 11/17/2017 at 1:59 PM, kmanweiss said:

LOL.  The whole point of the game is customizing it?  No need to worry about rules or gameplay, as long as I can take hours making my stormtroopers look exactly like everyone else's.  Terrain is easy and can be varied.  Papercraft is easy to do for buildings.  Other miniature games I've played used 2D terrain markers and indicators which worked just fine.  There are plenty of model kits, even some that are prepainted that can be used.  Making terrain, custom buildings, etc is WAY easier that painting figures.  Beyond that, I have the skills, patience, and ability for all of those elements... I don't for painting minis.

No one thought there was a market for pre-painted space combat miniatures prior to X-Wing.  In fact I remember posts about how stupid it was that they were going to be pre-painted and how people weren't going to buy it because of that.  What some people around here are saying is that there is a market for pre-painted miniatures also.  Now X-wing is beating the non-painted games, and Armada is making a decent showing against games that have been on the market for much longer and had established player bases.

Think about it.  A lot, if not most of the X-wing and Armada players are not people that played previous miniatures games.  What attracted them?  The fact that they were pre-painted.  It's part of the reason X-wing was able to hit #1 in the miniatures gaming market.

The market for non-painted minis is a niche market.  It always has been.  Is there demand for unpainted mini games?  Sure.  But there is also demand for painted mini games.  Why not serve both?  You see, you're conflating the painting of the pieces with the game.  They aren't tied to one another.  Miniature game doesn't have to equal unpainted minis.  X-wing and Armada proved this.  If the game is good, people are attracted to it.  But if there are barriers to entry, fewer people play it.  Unpainted is a barrier.

Look, I get it that painting is hard (heck, that's why I don't want to do it lol), and can be expensive (again, why I don't want to get involved in it).  But others can do it for relatively cheap prices, and FFG has a supply line with painters already established.  Do Heroclix and the previous star wars mini games paint jobs suck? Yeah, they do, but they are better than what I can do, and they work.  They look like crap at 2 inches, but look fine from a foot away. Heroclix can sell you 6 figures for $17.  They come assembled, painted, and with accompanying cards.  Legion gives you 7 figures for $25.  They are not assembled or painted.  Yeah, FFG plastics are higher quality, but by so much that heroclix can be assembled, painted, and yet still be significantly cheaper?

The cost argument doesn't hold up when you compare it to other products.  And when you don't pre-paint, you turn a lot of customers away.  Even more so when the elitists come out of the wood work to tell them to get lost when they voice their opinion on the subject.

 

FFG normally doesn't sell painted minis and they've done well for themselves regardless. X-Wing and Armada are an exception because, while those have high-quality paint jobs they are also expensive. One TIE fighter retails at $15. You don't need as many minis to play X-Wing so they can get away with having them prepainted and charging the higher price point. Their other prepainted minis are cheaper and it shows in the quality. If you don't want to take the time to learn how paint, then this isn't the game for you, because, while the rules and game play are important, painting and building your board are also equally as important to the people this type of game is geared towards. This is supposed to be Star Wars Warhammer, not Star Wars Heroclix.

I bet you'd be surprised how well you can do if you tried painting. I bet you could do even better, or at least on the same leave, as low-end prepainted minis like Heroclix.

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Posting a price comparison between Legion and Heroclix is invalid because Heroclix is s blind buy booster. Heroclix is the CCG version of a miniatures game. With few exceptions you have no idea what you will get in that $17 booster. Most of it will be stuff you do not want. You will have to buy a large amount of boosters to get the stuff you do want. That is why the price point is cheaper, not just the model quality. The purchase method of the game ensures you have to make superfluous purchases before you get what you want. Legion you buy exactly what you want. There is a limited cushion in pricing for expected superfluous purchases.

And yes a quality comparison between Legion and Heroclix is absurd. Heroclix models are garbage, with few exceptions. Some can't even hold their own pose because they bend at room temperature. There is very little detail in many of the models, particularly facial features. And they can't even say they color in the lines.

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22 minutes ago, Extropia said:

I've been mostly absent from here due to lack of news....thought I'd come back and check out any cool terrain threads etc.

Imagine my "shock" to find this argument STILL going....:rolleyes:

intimate knowledge of production, marketing, and licensing costs is everywhere on the internet.

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32 minutes ago, Extropia said:

I've been mostly absent from here due to lack of news....thought I'd come back and check out any cool terrain threads etc.

Imagine my "shock" to find this argument STILL going....:rolleyes:

We have condensed it down to just one thread now, though! :D

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On 11/17/2017 at 3:59 PM, kmanweiss said:

What some people around here are saying is that there is a market for pre-painted miniatures also.

FFG has tried it before with Dust.  That means FFG actually knows if there's much of a market out there for such a thing at the price point they'd have to charge for it.  If they sold enough of the Dust premium to justify the cost of producing it they'll do the same thing for Legion.  At 2-3 times as much for premium, I'd be surprised if it did, but only FFG knows for sure.

The Dust core set was $80, same as Legion, the premium was $240.

On 11/17/2017 at 3:59 PM, kmanweiss said:

Now X-wing is beating the non-painted games, and Armada is making a decent showing against games that have been on the market for much longer and had established player bases.

That is simply untrue.  Sure the ICv2 list shows X-Wing is selling more than 40k but that list doesn't tell the whole story, not by a long shot.  It's not actually based on sales numbers and doesn't include things like the GW stores in the US or in Europe.  Plus comparing X-Wing or Amrada to Legion is apples and oranges.  

On 11/17/2017 at 3:59 PM, kmanweiss said:

The cost argument doesn't hold up when you compare it to other products

The only other product you can compare to is Dust Premium and the difference in unpainted vs prepainted is already established, it's going to be 2-3 times as much.

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