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Just a quick note. Most full tabletop wargames that come with only prepainted minis end up going under. Hobbyists are key to keeping the game afloat (if a bad edition of rules comes out sales can still be generated via the hobby). They also help transition from one edition to another when people leave/return/join the hobby.

Edited by Zeelobby

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On 8/27/2017 at 6:07 PM, ozmodon said:

 I can see them doing  limited runs of prepainted miniatures . They have for many of there other games and yes at twice the base cost. They did a fine job in DUST.

Dust was closer to 3x. How did it sell? Take those numbers and associate it to Star Wars and tell me if you think those kind of sales are acceptable for the property.

From back in the day:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/dust-premium-miniatures/products/dust-tactics-premium-edition/  

Edited by qwertyuiop

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32 minutes ago, Zeelobby said:

Just a quick note. Most full tabletop wargames that come with only prepainted minis end up going under. Hobbyists are key to keeping the game afloat (if a bad edition of rules comes out sales can still be generated via the hobby). They also help transition from one edition to another when people leave/return/join the hobby.

Can you provide some examples? It'd be good for the discussion. WotC games? Clix? Others?

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2 hours ago, ScottieATF said:

Do you not understand what a false equivalency is?

What I understand is that someone has a different opinion than you. In case  others want to see how clever you think you are.. False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which two opposing arguments appear to be logically equivalent when in fact they are not. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistenc.

Edited by ozmodon

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I don't think referencing a basic logical fallacy that is apparent in it meaning via context clues is very clever of me.  It wasn't a trick but something I expected everyone to get.

The "foundation" of your argument is that Legion is a miniatures game and X-wing is also a miniatures game, therefore they are the same.  Because they are the same what works for X-wing will work for Legion.  But you ignore that Legion involves 40+ models per side, while X-wing averages 4.  That you ignore that fact while claiming they should substantially increase the manufacture cost per model shows you haven't really thought out your assertions.

It's very hypocritical to critic the foundations of others arguments when you can't even be bothered to build your own.

Again if a Core Set for X-wing containing 3 painted models retails at $40, and a Core Set if Legion with 10 times the number of models (all more detailed and 3 quite larger) retails for $90 unpainted.  How much do you expect that same Core Set goes for if each of those models has to be assembled and hand painted?

I played Warmachine for years.  I never painted more then a dozen models out of the dozens that I owned.  I am the target market for pre-painted miniature games, but even then I'm not going to play dumb and ignore how much it would increase costs.

Edited by ScottieATF

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3 hours ago, ozmodon said:

What I understand is that someone has a different opinion than you. In case  others want to see how clever you think you are.. False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which two opposing arguments appear to be logically equivalent when in fact they are not. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistenc.

ok, if that's the basis of your argument why isn't armada up there with it? It's forces are closer to a skirmish sized force ( but still smaller) than you'd see with a ground forces squad game and better than half (everything other than fighters) is prepainted, but owing to the relative size of the mini's has a price point around 30-50% higher than it's xwing counterparts for units. Even has the support for store -> worlds competition.

See where this argument falls over?

Edited by Ralgon

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5 minutes ago, Ralgon said:

ok, if that's the basis of your argument why isn't armada up there with it? It's forces are closer to a skirmish sized force ( but still smaller) than you'd see with a ground forces squad game and better than half (everything other than fighters) is prepainted, but owing to the relative size of the mini's has a price point around 30-50% higher than it's xwing counterparts for units. Even has the support for store -> worlds competition.

See where this argument falls over?

People like prepainted and scale. Only half of Armada is painted, it's turn limited and not to scale. Plus epic Rebal ships kind of lack the cool factor. A lot of people like squad sized games. I can see that after about 8 expansion sets of Legion that it will start to fracture into two groups. One wanting to keep their skirmish game and one going big like 40k apocalypse big. I play and paint x-wing. I like them being painted but I also like making some special. I know some people who repaint all their ships and I know others who don't paint any of theirs.

I see people spend tens of thousands on 40k and I can see them doing it here with this game. Someone who is willing to pay 2500 dollars for a single model isn't going to care if he has to pay extra for prepainted miniatures. I get unpainted will be the easiest way to start this game but I see room for both. I'm not saying one is better than another. I'm saying that this game has the potential to be every bit as big as 40k. Even taking their spot at number 2 in sales. FFG's future is looking quite bright 

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They're unpainted and unassembled because that is what people expect of a 'serious' wargame. And considering their version of unassembled is monopose anyway, it's clearly lip-service for the old school diehards. If they were painted and assembled, then their safe audience couldn't buy in without risking their grognard street cred.

I don't know what the AUD price tag will be (probably something outrageous if it's $90USD) but if I do buy in, I'll just be spraying three tones on my Rebel boys and washing them in black. I don't have four hours a night to paint that I had as a fifteen year old. I recommend anyone fearing the paintbrush do the same. They'll look decent, and you won't have to play with ugly grey plastic.

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16 minutes ago, Ajones47 said:

They're unpainted and unassembled because that is what people expect of a 'serious' wargame. And considering their version of unassembled is monopose anyway, it's clearly lip-service for the old school diehards. If they were painted and assembled, then their safe audience couldn't buy in without risking their grognard street cred.

I don't know what the AUD price tag will be (probably something outrageous if it's $90USD) but if I do buy in, I'll just be spraying three tones on my Rebel boys and washing them in black. I don't have four hours a night to paint that I had as a fifteen year old. I recommend anyone fearing the paintbrush do the same. They'll look decent, and you won't have to play with ugly grey plastic.

That's the same rrp as armarda, so $150-180aud depending on who you are buying off?

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8 hours ago, ozmodon said:

Someone who is willing to pay 2500 dollars for a single model isn't going to care if he has to pay extra for prepainted miniatures.

That is very, very rare to actually happen.  99.9% of the people playing 40k will not spend that much on a single model.  They will also not buy pre-painted models.  They will not pay a premium for poorly painted models, and they will never, ever pay a premium for poorly prepainted models they have to strip and repaint.

Bottom line is to not expect me to subsidize your unwillingness to paint.  Because that's what you're really asking for. For me to pay more so you don't have to paint something.

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2 minutes ago, Hannes Solo said:

Honestly, I think IA should have been the game to come with preepainted minis and not legion.

That actually would have made a lot more sense, and been a lot more practical. Single piece miniatures (the great majority), lower detail and less models.

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It's such a missed opportunity to print money for FFG. Imagine IA was prepainted and in scale with legion which came with higher quality and make minis for both systems compatible while you still need the cardstuff from the expansion.

IA High-Res Snobs would buy Legion minis to use in IA and Legion Paintbrush Scrubs went for IA minis to avoid getting their hands dirty.

Edited by Hannes Solo

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I believe this selfsame discussion came up in relation to X-Wing and IA. One of the developers actually chimed in, and said that even painting IA would raise the price. X-Wing/Armada is something of a unique endeavor, one they can't easily replicate with the humanoid miniatures.

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Sure. Nobody says that it wouldn't. However prepainting humanoid minis (on lower level) was done before. Its just the level of quality that tabletop hobbyist expect you can't reach for reasonable costs. Thats why I do not think pp is an option for legion, but it would have been for IA.

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16 hours ago, Zeelobby said:

Just a quick note. Most full tabletop wargames that come with only prepainted minis end up going under. Hobbyists are key to keeping the game afloat (if a bad edition of rules comes out sales can still be generated via the hobby). They also help transition from one edition to another when people leave/return/join the hobby.

Correlation does not imply causation.  Have full painted mini games failed?  Yes, but that wasn't due to the paint but other factors.  There have been TONS of unpainted mini games that failed also.  The systems, the quality, the marketing, the support.  Those all figure in as bigger deals.

There are pre-painted games on the market today, and some have been around quite awhile.

Also, keep in mind that people made the same sort of remarks about X-wing and Armada.  "Serious games don't come prepainted." "The hardcore people won't buy it if it's pre-painted." Yet X-wing is top dog 2 years in a row and Armada is sitting pretty high also.

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3 hours ago, VanorDM said:

Bottom line is to not expect me to subsidize your unwillingness to paint.  Because that's what you're really asking for. For me to pay more so you don't have to paint something.

Indeed you are correct.

But keep in mind something else.  FFG is a business.  If they look at the end of year reports after a year or two of legion and discover the money they spend on legion would make more profit in X-Wing, Armada, or something else.  Don't expect the pre-paint fans that were told to shove off to subsidize your fandom by buying products they don't want to paint.

I'm not saying the game is going to fail, or have only a short life.  Not at all.  But when games do go under, the fans always cry about how it could happen and why weren't more people interested in such a great product...well this time you have people up front tell you why they aren't interested.

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5 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

But when games do go under, the fans always cry about how it could happen and why weren't more people interested in such a great product...well this time you have people up front tell you why they aren't interested.

And most times people actually have no clue why it went under.  But given the nature of the miniature wargaming market prepainted is much more likely to cause a line to go under then unpainted.  It's not like prepainted has never been tried before... Because it has and it's failed.

Not many TT games go under, but there has never been a case that I know of in which one did because it wasn't prepainted.

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11 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

Indeed you are correct.

But keep in mind something else.  FFG is a business.  If they look at the end of year reports after a year or two of legion and discover the money they spend on legion would make more profit in X-Wing, Armada, or something else.  Don't expect the pre-paint fans that were told to shove off to subsidize your fandom by buying products they don't want to paint.

I'm not saying the game is going to fail, or have only a short life.  Not at all.  But when games do go under, the fans always cry about how it could happen and why weren't more people interested in such a great product...well this time you have people up front tell you why they aren't interested.

Prepaint fans definitely aren't being told to shove off.  That's in your head.  This just isn't a game type where prepainted is common.  I'd say it's very uncommon.  Legion is in the same category as...

  • Warhammer 40k - Unpainted
  • Warhammer Age of Sigmar - Unpainted
  • Warmachine - Unpainted
  • Hordes - Unpainted
  • Infinity - Unpainted
  • Kings of War - Unpainted
  • Runewars - Unpainted
  • Afterlife - Unpainted
  • Maelstrom's Edge - Unpainted
  • Warpath - Unpainted
  • Malifaux - Unpainted
  • DC Universe - Unpainted
  • Frostgrave - Unpainted
  • A Kajillion Historical Games - Unpainted
  • Heroclix - Painted
  • ??? - Painted (I can't think of any others besides Heroclix)

Now, when you're dealing with space ship minis, painted is more common given that X-Wing dominates that market.  Legion isn't a space ship minis game (obviously).

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1 minute ago, KrisWall said:

Now, when you're dealing with space ship minis, painted is more common given that X-Wing dominates that market. 

While X-Wing does dominate that market, it's still one of the only games that offers pre painted models.  The other wizkids games do... But there's a ton of spaceship based games out there that don't have pre-painted models.  One look at Attack Wing shows just how poorly even a simple model can look.

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On 8/27/2017 at 1:21 PM, ozmodon said:

Personally  I think it would sell twice as much if it was prepainted. Most people just don't have the time to paint and the ones who do want to can paint over the existing paint. It's what made X-wing sell so much.

 I agree with this. I wish it were feasible to at least give the consumer to buy a prepainted set even if it's at a premium. I certainly would.

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Just now, VanorDM said:

While X-Wing does dominate that market, it's still one of the only games that offers pre painted models.  The other wizkids games do... But there's a ton of spaceship based games out there that don't have pre-painted models.  One look at Attack Wing shows just how poorly even a simple model can look.

Absolutely true.  I was just willing to concede that space ship minis games are usually painted because space ship minis gamers are usually playing X-Wing...  :D

The majority of non-Star Wars, non-Star Trek ship/vehicle games are unpainted...

  • Dropzone Commander - Unpainted
  • Flames of War - Unpainted
  • Battlefleet Gothic (Out of Print now) - Unpainted
  • Tanks - Unpainted
  • etc, etc...  I'm not as familiar with these sorts of games, but I do know that my very large gaming store has no prepainted games other than X-Wing and Armada.  Armada is only partly painted.  The squadrons are unpainted and the Imperial ships are predominantly grey, which is a very easy scheme to paint.

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