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Rumar

Cover is not meaningful enough

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7 hours ago, ozmodon said:

It seems like a lot of opinions on what does and doesn't work for a game that hasn't made it out of the box yet.

Welcome to the Internet.  Everyone's a ******* expert regardless of how much or little information is at hand.

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On 26.8.2017 at 10:46 PM, Rumar said:

Cover does not scale. 3 squads of four are not as good as 2 squads of 6. Doesn't make sense.

Lets make it a squad of 2 regular troopers. As hard cover cancels anything but critical hits (1/8 perhaps), they'll have a hard time killing anyone -especially as blocks and dodges will nullify roughly half of those crits. 

So the correct strategy is to shoot squads down to half and then just let them be. Hard cover nullifies 40% of the maximum damage output of a regular 5-man squad, but 100% of a 2-man squad. In other words cover is 250% more effective against a 2-man squad than a 5-man squad.

I quess that this will be a major factor, when competitive players design their forces and strategies. Then FFG will try to fix the problem by releasing new troops and weapons that bypass the problem. But, as the basic mechanism is flawed, this will just create a new kind of imbalance, 

P.S. Think. How effective is the cover against:

a) a single sniper

b) 5 man squad

c) 30 man squad

 

 

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5 hours ago, LeiserLers said:

I quess that this will be a major factor, when competitive players design their forces and strategies. Then FFG will try to fix the problem by releasing new troops and weapons that bypass the problem. But, as the basic mechanism is flawed, this will just create a new kind of imbalance, 

 

We are likely to get all chieftains and no warriors. Tekken goes Jedi.

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Fresh comment here, given that your average rebel soldier or stormtrooper can only do 1 attack each and you are shooting at someone behind heavy cover, then half your squad isn't going to hit, even in the best situation. I fail to see how this is bad in any way, that and cover can still obstruct your line of sight in this game.

Edited by Kappa Smith

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15 hours ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

Welcome to the Internet.  Everyone's a ******* expert regardless of how much or little information is at hand.

If you are too lazy or too disinterested to look at the information out there, it doesn't mean everyone else is.

Edited by Rumar
found a typo

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7 hours ago, LeiserLers said:

P.S. Think. How effective is the cover against:

a) a single sniper

b) 5 man squad

c) 30 man squad

A sniper would presumably have a special rule to ignore cover. Grenades already do.

There's no reason to expect 30 man squads given the highest we've seen to date is a whopping... six.

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16 minutes ago, svelok said:

A sniper would presumably have a special rule to ignore cover. Grenades already do.

There's no reason to expect 30 man squads given the highest we've seen to date is a whopping... six.

Your argument being what? It is about how much dice per unit. Do you really believe that we have seen the top of the foodchain already? With Vader, we should have, but that's not what happened in X-Wing.

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1 hour ago, Rumar said:

Your argument being what? It is about how much dice per unit. Do you really believe that we have seen the top of the foodchain already? With Vader, we should have, but that's not what happened in X-Wing.

Your argument is based on things that have not yet occurred, and might not occur.  You have no room to critic someone else's argument when you've presented one in that manner.

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Also, Legion is not X-Wing or Armada or any other mini game. Legion is Legion. 

To provide a counter point to "top of food chain via dice", the ISD in Armada still has the most amount of dice than another other ship and it came out in wave 2. 

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1 hour ago, ScottieATF said:

Your argument is based on things that have not yet occurred, and might not occur.  You have no room to critic someone else's argument when you've presented one in that manner.

Beside the point. As LeiserLers already pointed out above, cover not scaling is a problem right now, even if there is no power creep. And you will have uniform squads, because not taking a heavy weapon doesn't cut it. To detect this flaw, you don't even have to playtest.

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11 hours ago, Rumar said:

If you are too lazy or too disinterested to look at the information out there, it doesn't mean everyone else is.

You're an expert at making assumptions, aren't you?  This whole thread is just your assumptions and nothing more.

Let's also note that your OP was factually incorrect in that you stated cover blocks attack dice; where it actually blocks confirmed hits.  Perhaps you need to do better at looking for the information out there.

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41 minutes ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

Let's also note that your OP was factually incorrect in that you stated cover blocks attack dice; where it actually blocks confirmed hits.

My bad. Cover still doesn't scale.

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2 minutes ago, Orcdruid said:

Cover is an x value not light/heavy. So ot actually does scale.

The x value is the number of hits taken off the attack. It stays the same value, regardless of dice or hits of the attack, so does not scale. The chance of a single gun hitting something behind cover should not depend on how many other guns are firing. This is not realistic, which is not a problem for a game. It is also bad design, which is a problem for a game. Because reduced squads become pretty useless, which is awkward, and big is beautiful, which reduces viable choices. The less viable choices, the more uniform the lists. How much of the X-Wing forum is about the dreaded meta and autoinclude? We won't see much squads without heavy weapon.

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1 hour ago, Orcdruid said:

Cover is an x value not light/heavy. So ot actually does scale.

To speculate: I think in the Team Covenant video Alex talks about two layers of Light Terrain stacking and removing two dice as per heavy terrain. Now I don't know if that means that a light and heavy will prevent three hits I just don't know. I suspect that a dodge token, which allows saves to be re-rolled will give rise to a less mobile squad taking less hits that one that moves. Further a 30 model squad may be somewhat harder to get in cover as to benefit from it in any case.

I also hope that the rule book PDF is done as per destiny, such that it is a living rulebook with FAQ and Updates or changes made within the rules as to have them all in one place.

I wonder too if what we saw was a simplified version of things to ensure the game played smoothly as a demo and the rules could be something more complicated?

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I think the designer mentioned that you had cover if it you had at least three models behind cover.  If it is needed for the system to scale (which is hard to say as we may never see squads of more than 6 troops) it would be a simple enough matter to rule that you cancel the one or two dice for every three models behind cover.

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5 minutes ago, srMontresor said:

I think the designer mentioned that you had cover if it you had at least three models behind cover.  If it is needed for the system to scale (which is hard to say as we may never see squads of more than 6 troops) it would be a simple enough matter to rule that you cancel the one or two dice for every three models behind cover.

Makes reduced squads even more useless and does not address "big is beautiful". Cover needs to scale with the attack, not the target.

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10 minutes ago, Rumar said:

Makes reduced squads even more useless and does not address "big is beautiful". Cover needs to scale with the attack, not the target.

That's completely contextual.  You would need to have adequate cover for a larger squad, whereas smaller squads would more easily find enough terrain on map to max their bonus.

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5 minutes ago, srMontresor said:

That's completely contextual.  You would need to have adequate cover for a larger squad, whereas smaller squads would more easily find enough terrain on map to max their bonus.

"Big ist beautiful" refers to attack dice, not miniatures.

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1 minute ago, Rumar said:

"Big ist beautiful" refers to attack dice, not miniatures.

A fair point, but without knowing what's available in the upgrades (especially beyond the core release) it seems too early to say how the cover system is balanced.

I may have missed it in the demo vids, but I am wondering if certain unit types get no bonus from cover, or whether cover needs to physically cover a certain height of a model to count.  For example, an AT-ST is no better protected behind a five-foot high stone fence than one that is standing on open terrain.

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1 hour ago, srMontresor said:

I think the designer mentioned that you had cover if it you had at least three models behind cover.  If it is needed for the system to scale (which is hard to say as we may never see squads of more than 6 troops) it would be a simple enough matter to rule that you cancel the one or two dice for every three models behind cover.

You have cover of at least half of your figures in the unit are behind cover. Also figures in the unit that are not in line-of-sight cannot be damaged by the attack.

 

2 hours ago, Rumar said:

The chance of a single gun hitting something behind cover should not depend on how many other guns are firing.

by gun I assume you mean shot(bullet). If that is the case it absolutely should matter. If you have one person firing at a unit behind cover they are much less likely to hot someone than of you have multiple people firing at that same unit simultaneously for two reasons angle and volume.

Angle: if you have multiple lines of fire there is a bigger chance that one of those lines goes over the cover.

Volume: a higher volume of fire means more chances for the target unit to make a fatal mistake.

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Am I correct in thinking that Critical hits ignore cover, or more accurately, cannot be cancelled by cover? So if you're down to a single trooper they still have a chance of getting a hit through on someone in cover. I get what people mean about smaller units being disproportionately less effective against targets in cover than larger units, but it's not as if they're useless, right? Volume of fire is certainly something that should have an effect on cover protection, but I don't think the game is going to see 20+ person units like 40k. So while it's correct to say it doesn't scale, I would imagine the designers know that and have made a conscious decision to go that route rather than add more variance where they've decided it's not needed. I have a high enough opinion of FFG's games designers to give them the benefit of the doubt until I've had a chance to actually play the game.

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On 8/27/2017 at 10:29 PM, charlesanakin said:

Anyone have a source for the 6 turn limit? I haven't heard or seen that one anywhere. 

 

source: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/star-wars-legion-showcase/
 

Quote

Over the course of six rounds, you must battle and maneuver your units to claim objectives. The points you gain from these objectives are your pathway to victory, and whoever has the most points at the end of the game claims victory! Whether you’re brand-new to miniatures games or a seasoned veteran, Star Wars: Legion is the perfect entrypoint to the hobby.

 

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12 hours ago, Rumar said:

Makes reduced squads even more useless and does not address "big is beautiful". Cover needs to scale with the attack, not the target.

Once again, defense dice scales with attacks. For every successful hit after cover is considered, you get a defense die. You cancel a hit 1:1. If you have 5 hits coming in, you roll 5 defense dice. If you have 2 hits coming in and stand in heavy cover, you have 0 hits. If you have 6 hits and stand in heavy cover, you have 4 hits coming and roll 4 defense dice. Cancel hit 1:1. 

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