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AllWingsStandyingBy

Is it just me, or are Raddus and the Profundity really bad?

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6 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

While in your Garm Bel example both, HA and Garm are in play. Other thing would be if Garm is in the hehe ship which is entering. This is he case we are discussing. 

Yep, but at the start of the round Garm can't apply to the HA ship. However, I can see the distinction now; Garm is still available to trigger, it's the resolution that is affected by whether the HA has happened.

So to go back to the Rebel Doll scenario, if there was a Raddus and HA but Raddus wasn't on the HA ship, the player could resolve the HA first, then resolve Raddus putting the Raddus ship at distance 1 of the HA ship.

I'm still trying to find other rules interactions that are "at the start of..."

Although... to be really, really pedantic, the rule saying that set aside ships and upgrades are inactive is in the Hyperspace Assault section of the FAQ - so there's a (bad) argument to say that it only applies to ships set aside through HA. Looking through them, the only other clarification that doesn't explicitly specify it only applies to that card is the Opening Salvo one:

Quote

A ship’s fleet point cost includes the costs of all upgrade cards equipped to that ship.

Obviously at other times a ship's fleet point cost doesn't include its upgrade cards, but in those cases that is made explicit on the card, without needing clarification. The clarification for Opening Salvo is only needed because the RRG only specifies that a ship's fleet point cost includes upgrades when destroyed.

Now I think about it, it is probably too late to be trying to muck through all this interpretation.

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EPISODE IV: A NEW EFFECT

It is a period of civil war. Rebel forumgoers, striking from a hidden IP address, have won their first victory against the Evil FFG Empire. During the battle, Rebel spies managed to find a fatal flaw in FFG’s ultimate weapon, @Drasnighta, a villanous loremaster with the power to memorise an entire rulebook. Pursued by FFG’s sinister agent, @DiabloAzul races to the forums with his laptop, custodian of the stolen logic that can save his people and restore freedom to the galaxy… 

From Effect use and Timing, RRG p.5:

  • If two or more of a player’s effects have the same timing, that player can resolve those effects in any order.
  • If both players have effects with the same timing, the first player resolves all of his effects with that timing first.

Note that there is no mention here that effects with a common timing have to be "inventoried" or "frozen" in any way. There is, however, an indication that the second player cannot being resolving his effects until the first player has finished resolving all of his.

More generally, a "snapshot" of triggered events would be consistent with a "simultaneous" resolution logic, but that's not really how Armada works - throughout the rules you fully resolve an effect and re-evaluate the game-state before proceeding to resolve the next.

Scenario 1

First player: Admiral Raddus

  • Admiral Raddus is in play aboard MC80
  • Profundity is set aside by Admiral Raddus
  • Hammerhead is set aside by Profundity

Second player: General Tagge 

  • VSD is set aside by Hyperspace Assault
  • General Tagge is aboard set-aside VSD

At the start of round 3, the following effects trigger:

  • Admiral Raddus
  • Hyperspace Assault

Then:

  1. Admiral Raddus is resolved first because it belongs to the first player.
  2. HSA would go next, but there is now a new "at the start of round 3" effect (Profundity) belonging to the first player, which must* be resolved first.
  3. There are no more "at the start of round 3" effects from the first player, so HSA can now resolve.
  4. There is now a new "at the start of round 3" effect (General Tagge) from the second player, which (by analogy) must* be resolved now.

*: Of course, resolving it is optional, but if the player chooses to resolve it, then it must be resolved at that point.

 

EPISODE V: THE TOKEN STRIKES BACK

It is a dark time for the rules forum. Although Thrawn has been clarified, the Admiral Raddus rules have driven the players insane and scattered their card interpretations across the galaxy. Evading the dreaded FAQ, a group of freedom fighters led by @ovinomanc3r has found a new argument based on the remote rulebook section of Defense Tokens. The evil loremaster @Drasnighta, obsessed with proving @ovinomanc3r wrong, has dispatched thousands of counter-arguments into the far reaches of space…

I think our ovine friend has made an excellent point, in that the Defense Tokens mechanic shows that order of effects need not be decided before resolving them, and is continuously evaluated until no more effects remain.

There is simply nothing in the rulebook forcing you to set the order in advance. Nor preventing you from using a token that was not (yet) available at the beginning of the Spend Defense Tokens step, but that became available at some point during that step.

"Ah-ha!" I hear you say, "but Defense Tokens are spent during a step, rather than a specific point in time, and therefore do not have the same timing!"

...at which point I would be willing to concede, except that Effect use and Timing, RRG p.5 (again) says:

"Each effect in the game has a timing during which it can resolve."

In other words: all of the effects discussed earlier resolve during the "at the start of the round" timing. Ergo, "at the start of the round" is a phase with discrete duration, and as long as it has not ended (i.e. until there are no more effects with that timing to resolve before proceeding to the next) players can continue resolving their effects. And after fully resolving each effect (which, as revealed in the second act of Episode IV, necessitates re-evaluating the game-state), they can continue to decide which effect, if any, to resolve next.  

Scenario 2:

Enter the dreaded ISD Unlikely"After you discard a defense token, you may exhaust this card to recover 1 of your other discarded defense tokens."

Under Vader's ruthless command, the Unlikely has burned through most of its defenses. It has no shields left, and only an exhausted Redirect token and a readied Contain token. It is then attacked by Admonition, dealing just enough damage to destroy its remaining hull... except...

  1. The Spend Defense Tokens timing window begins.
  2. The exhausted Redirect token is available to be resolved, and it is spent.
  3. Spending the exhausted token causes it to be discarded, which in turn triggers the Unlikely title.
  4. The Unlikely title is exhausted, so the ship recovers any 1 of its previously discarded tokens, in this case the Brace.
  5. We are still in the Spend Defense Tokens step, so the ship now chooses to spend the Brace and halve incoming damage.
  6. The ship will live! Maybe it's best to spend that Contain after all (or not, if Admo rolled no crits).
  7. Regardless of the choice made in step 6, no more effects remain to be resolved (or declined) in this timing window.

As we've established earlier, "during the Spend Defense Tokens step" is analogous to any timing or trigger - including "at the start of a round". They all designate a period of time during which effects can be resolved.

 

EPISODE VI: RETURN OF THE ANALOGY

@DiabloAzul has returned to his keyboard in an attempt to rescue his friend @Grumbleduke from the clutches of the vile loremaster @Drasnighta. Little does DA know that FFG has secretly begun construction on a new rules update even more confusing than the first dreaded FAQ. When completed, this ultimate weapon will spell certain doom for the small band of rebels struggling to restore logic to the rules forum..."

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2 minutes ago, Gadgetron said:

Is this... a new Star Destroyer title... If its not... CAN it be?

Heh! :D

Earlier today I was considering running a mini-project on Shipyards, with a dozen or so new ISD titles.

This was just a quick hypothetical example for illustrating the rules discussion, but maybe it can be the basis for one such card...

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25 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

EPISODE IV: A NEW EFFECT

It is a period of civil war. Rebel forumgoers, striking from a hidden IP address, have won their first victory against the Evil FFG Empire. During the battle, Rebel spies managed to find a fatal flaw in FFG’s ultimate weapon, @Drasnighta, a villanous loremaster with the power to memorise an entire rulebook. Pursued by FFG’s sinister agent, @DiabloAzul races to the forums with his laptop, custodian of the stolen logic that can save his people and restore freedom to the galaxy… 

From Effect use and Timing, RRG p.5:

  • If two or more of a player’s effects have the same timing, that player can resolve those effects in any order.
  • If both players have effects with the same timing, the first player resolves all of his effects with that timing first.

Note that there is no mention here that effects with a common timing have to be "inventoried" or "frozen" in any way. There is, however, an indication that the second player cannot being resolving his effects until the first player has finished resolving all of his.

More generally, a "snapshot" of triggered events would be consistent with a "simultaneous" resolution logic, but that's not really how Armada works - throughout the rules you fully resolve an effect and re-evaluate the game-state before proceeding to resolve the next.

Scenario 1

First player: Admiral Raddus

  • Admiral Raddus is in play aboard MC80
  • Profundity is set aside by Admiral Raddus
  • Hammerhead is set aside by Profundity

Second player: General Tagge 

  • VSD is set aside by Hyperspace Assault
  • General Tagge is aboard set-aside VSD

At the start of round 3, the following effects trigger:

  • Admiral Raddus
  • Hyperspace Assault

Then:

  1. Admiral Raddus is resolved first because it belongs to the first player.
  2. HSA would go next, but there is now a new "at the start of round 3" effect (Profundity) belonging to the first player, which must* be resolved first.
  3. There are no more "at the start of round 3" effects from the first player, so HSA can now resolve.
  4. There is now a new "at the start of round 3" effect (General Tagge) from the second player, which (by analogy) must* be resolved now.

*: Of course, resolving it is optional, but if the player chooses to resolve it, then it must be resolved at that point.

 

EPISODE V: THE TOKEN STRIKES BACK

It is a dark time for the rules forum. Although Thrawn has been clarified, the Admiral Raddus rules have driven the players insane and scattered their card interpretations across the galaxy. Evading the dreaded FAQ, a group of freedom fighters led by @ovinomanc3r has found a new argument based on the remote rulebook section of Defense Tokens. The evil loremaster @Drasnighta, obsessed with proving @ovinomanc3r wrong, has dispatched thousands of counter-arguments into the far reaches of space…

I think our ovine friend has made an excellent point, in that the Defense Tokens mechanic shows that order of effects need not be decided before resolving them, and is continuously evaluated until no more effects remain.

There is simply nothing in the rulebook forcing you to set the order in advance. Nor preventing you from using a token that was not (yet) available at the beginning of the Spend Defense Tokens step, but that became available at some point during that step.

"Ah-ha!" I hear you say, "but Defense Tokens are spent during a step, rather than a specific point in time, and therefore do not have the same timing!"

...at which point I would be willing to concede, except that Effect use and Timing, RRG p.5 (again) says:

"Each effect in the game has a timing during which it can resolve."

In other words: all of the effects discussed earlier resolve during the "at the start of the round" timing. Ergo, "at the start of the round" is a phase with discrete duration, and as long as it has not ended (i.e. until there are no more effects with that timing to resolve before proceeding to the next) players can continue resolving their effects. And after fully resolving each effect (which, as revealed in the second act of Episode IV, necessitates re-evaluating the game-state), they can continue to decide which effect, if any, to resolve next.  

Scenario 2:

Enter the dreaded ISD Unlikely"After you discard a defense token, you may exhaust this card to recover 1 of your other discarded defense tokens."

Under Vader's ruthless command, the Unlikely has burned through most of its defenses. It has no shields left, and only an exhausted Redirect token and a readied Contain token. It is then attacked by Admonition, dealing just enough damage to destroy its remaining hull... except...

  1. The Spend Defense Tokens timing window begins.
  2. The exhausted Redirect token is available to be resolved, and it is spent.
  3. Spending the exhausted token causes it to be discarded, which in turn triggers the Unlikely title.
  4. The Unlikely title is exhausted, so the ship recovers any 1 of its previously discarded tokens, in this case the Brace.
  5. We are still in the Spend Defense Tokens step, so the ship now chooses to spend the Brace and halve incoming damage.
  6. The ship will live! Maybe it's best to spend that Contain after all (or not, if Admo rolled no crits).
  7. Regardless of the choice made in step 6, no more effects remain to be resolved (or declined) in this timing window.

As we've established earlier, "during the Spend Defense Tokens step" is analogous to any timing or trigger - including "at the start of a round". They all designate a period of time during which effects can be resolved.

 

EPISODE VI: RETURN OF THE ANALOGY

@DiabloAzul has returned to his keyboard in an attempt to rescue his friend @Grumbleduke from the clutches of the vile loremaster @Drasnighta. Little does DA know that FFG has secretly begun construction on a new rules update even more confusing than the first dreaded FAQ. When completed, this ultimate weapon will spell certain doom for the small band of rebels struggling to restore logic to the rules forum..."

Those what my thoughts, however what about Damaged Controls dealt by overlapping an asteroids field ? Would it trigger?

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@DiabloAzul, I don't think any of that proves you can chain together HSA, Raddus, and Profundity.

No one is going to argue that Raddus can bring in Profunidty before HSA Vic. That's clear. But you cannot drop the HH from Profunidty because it missed the timing window "At the start of the round". 

Your defense token example does not do anything either. You are allowed to spend defense tokens "during" the defense token step, not "at the start of the defense token step" which is a huge difference. Because they are spent "during" the step, it also explains why I can spend an Evade and see the result, besides the FAQ.

 

It sounds like you're trying to make the argument that when the board state changes, you reopen all timing windows in the current step. 

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Damaged Controls, do you still resolve it?

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Ruptured Engine, do you still resolve it?

If you are correct, a lot of people have been playing wrong. You moved and the board state changed (suffered a crit) and now you resolve it because you reopen the "After you execute a maneuver" window.

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4 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

@DiabloAzul, I don't think any of that proves you can chain together HSA, Raddus, and Profundity.

No one is going to argue that Raddus can bring in Profunidty before HSA Vic. That's clear. But you cannot drop the HH from Profunidty because it missed the timing window "At the start of the round". 

Your defense token example does not do anything either. You are allowed to spend defense tokens "during" the defense token step, not "at the start of the defense token step" which is a huge difference. Because they are spent "during" the step, it also explains why I can spend an Evade and see the result, besides the FAQ.

 

It sounds like you're trying to make the argument that when the board state changes, you reopen all timing windows in the current step. 

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Damaged Controls, do you still resolve it?

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Ruptured Engine, do you still resolve it?

If you are correct, a lot of people have been playing wrong. You moved and the board state changed (suffered a crit) and now you resolve it because you reopen the "After you execute a maneuver" window.

You turned me to the dark side.

However, when Dras said that we can delete an effect that is not anymore, the "check point" after discarding Damaged Controls with the station is assumed.

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10 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

@DiabloAzul, I don't think any of that proves you can chain together HSA, Raddus, and Profundity.

No one is going to argue that Raddus can bring in Profunidty before HSA Vic. That's clear. But you cannot drop the HH from Profunidty because it missed the timing window "At the start of the round". 

Your defense token example does not do anything either. You are allowed to spend defense tokens "during" the defense token step, not "at the start of the defense token step" which is a huge difference. Because they are spent "during" the step, it also explains why I can spend an Evade and see the result, besides the FAQ.

 

It sounds like you're trying to make the argument that when the board state changes, you reopen all timing windows in the current step. 

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Damaged Controls, do you still resolve it?

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Ruptured Engine, do you still resolve it?

If you are correct, a lot of people have been playing wrong. You moved and the board state changed (suffered a crit) and now you resolve it because you reopen the "After you execute a maneuver" window.

 

My point was that "at the start of [...]" also has a length of time, during which you can resolve effects. It's a period in its own right, and until it's over and you're done resolving all the effects with that timing you don't move onto the next.

You don't "reopen" timing windows, you just never left them until you move onto the next non-nested one (i.e. of the same hierarchy level).

 

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Damaged Controls, do you still resolve it? 

Yes. Asteroids cause you to be dealt a faceup damage card when you overlap them. Before you proceed to the next time fragment (i.e. "after you overlap an obstacle"), the Damaged Controls card will trigger.

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Ruptured Engine, do you still resolve it?

Yes. You're still in the "after you resolve a maneuver" step.

Edited by DiabloAzul

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5 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

 

My point was that "at the start of [...]" also has a length of time, during which you can resolve effects. It's a period in its own right, and until it's over and you're done resolving all the effects with that timing you don't move onto the next.

You don't "reopen" timing windows, you just never left them until you move onto the next non-nested one (i.e. of the same hierarchy level).

 

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Damaged Controls, do you still resolve it? 

Yes. Asteroids cause you to be dealt a faceup damage card when you overlap them. Before you proceed to the next time fragment (i.e. "after you overlap an obstacle"), the Damaged Controls card will trigger.

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Ruptured Engine, do you still resolve it?

Yes. You're still in the "after you resolve a maneuver" step.

Actually it would not be the first damage card we resolved when is dealt.

It is dealt. Check it. Is the timing correct? If yes, resolve it.

The more I think on it the more sure I am about having been playing (not sure about this construction, sorry) it wrong. 

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Or to put it another way...

Let's say we are Raddusing in a Profundity. The conditions for using Profundity's title are:

  1. It must be "At the start of any round..."
  2. There must be an equipped, not set aside, ship with the Profundity title in play.

The round starts. 1 is met, 2 isn't. No Profundity fun.

Raddus then brings in the Profundity using his ability.

2 is now met. Is 1? Are we still "at the start of any round"?

I would say that we are. All of Raddus's effect happens "at the start of any round" so no game time as passed. Otherwise we're saying that once Raddus has happened we're no longer "at the start of any round" meaning that no other "at the start of [this] round" effects can happen.

The only way around this is to separate out "using/triggering" an effect and "resolving" it. If we do that, players would have to trigger all their "at the start of..." effects simultaneously, then those effects will be resolved in accordance with the p5 RRG rules. But that means we'd have to decide whether or not we're using those effects before resolving any of them - so declaring whether we'll be using RBD's before Han Solo does his activation, even if we can't actually resolve it until after. This isn't likely to be an issue much, but could be when combining Shields to Maximum! and Hondo on opposite teams; Player 1 is using Hondo, but Player 2 wants to wait to see if their Pelta gets a repair token from Hondo before deciding whether to use Shields to Maximum! But if we go with triggering simultaneously and resolving separately, they can't do that - they have to decide whether they're using it before Player 1 decides which tokens to give out. Does anyone have experience of this sort of situation?

Now onto those questions:

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Damaged Controls, do you still resolve it? 

I'm going to go with "yes" - but with a qualifier for choice of resolving ordering. The timing is something like:

  1. Are we "after executing a maneuver"? Yes, so the obstacle check rules can apply. The execution of the maneuver has just happened, and "after" effects occur immediately afterwards.
  2. Are we "when a ship overlaps an obstacle?" Yes. The ship is overlapping an obstacle ("at the moment"), so we get the Damaged Controls crit.
  3. Are we "when you overlap [an] obstacle ?" Yes. We haven't moved on from this time period, we're still in the "when" effect period. So we take that extra damage.

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Ruptured Engine, do you still resolve it?

I'm going to go with "no" for this one. Going by the RRG for obstacles, the timing is something like:

  1. Are we "after executing a maneuver?" Yes, so the obstacle check rules can apply. The execution of the maneuver has happened.
  2. Are we "when a ship overlaps an obstacle?" Yes. A ship is overlapping an obstacle ("at the moment"). We get a crit.
  3. Are we "after executing a maneuver?" No. Because we've moved on from "after executing a maneuver" to "when a ship overlaps" - we're in a different time period, and we can't go back to "after executing" because "after" things only happen once.

I don't see how we must move from one timing period to another simply because the board state changes, given - for example - the Han Solo situation; Han Solo can destroy something, while still keeping us in the same "at the start of the ship phase" timing. But I'm Ok with being wrong if we do go with the idea that effects have simultaneous triggering, but consecutive resolving. If that happens, then the Damaged Controls answer is "no" because we're applying the crit after we've left the "when a ship overlaps" period. Although that might mess with some other things (like XX-9s, perhaps? - but I'd need to think more about that).

I can also see the argument for "yes" to the Ruptured Engine question. That would be that the "when a ship overlaps" time period happens entirely within the "after executing a maneuver" period. So we're still "after" after we've resolved the "when," rather than having an "after" leading to the first "when", then a second "after.

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13 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

 

My point was that "at the start of [...]" also has a length of time, during which you can resolve effects. It's a period in its own right, and until it's over and you're done resolving all the effects with that timing you don't move onto the next.

You don't "reopen" timing windows, you just never left them until you move onto the next non-nested one (i.e. of the same hierarchy level).

 

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Damaged Controls, do you still resolve it? 

Yes. Asteroids cause you to be dealt a faceup damage card when you overlap them. Before you proceed to the next time fragment (i.e. "after you overlap an obstacle"), the Damaged Controls card will trigger.

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Ruptured Engine, do you still resolve it?

Yes. You're still in the "after you resolve a maneuver" step.

I disagree. The HSA FAQ supports my position that you cannot chain Raddus, Profundity, or HSA in any order. Raddus and Profundity use the same language as HSA, so it's safe to assume they are meant to be played the same way. Otherwise you'd have 3 cards saying the same thing but play in different ways, which is just weird.

Ships and squadrons set aside are not in play. Their abilities and upgrades are inactive and they cannot be affected by any abilities.

Under the assumption that all 3 are treated the same, their upgrades are inactive. So they never get triggered "At the start of the round", so they can never be activated. It is not "during the start of the round" nor is there a "during" implied in every timing window. Once you hit "At the start" everything with that timing is primed and ready to be activated, and then it cascades following the timing rules. Bringing in Profundity via Raddus during the start of the round will not allow Profundity to drop a ship. It was not on the table at the start of the round. Same with HSA pulling in Raddus. HSA specifically says Raddus is inactive, so Raddus cannot be triggered.

 

Neither crit would trigger because their timing window has passed.

When a ship or squadron overlaps an obstacle after executing a maneuver, it resolves an effect that depends on the type of obstacle it overlapped: 

I've just executed a maneuver, so "after" timings get to trigger, which includes landing on an asteroid. I immediately resolve the crit. Since the crit was not present for the timing, they will not resolve, where as Projector Misaligned has no timing, except the implied "resolve immediately. 

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3 minutes ago, Grumbleduke said:

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Ruptured Engine, do you still resolve it?

I'm going to go with "no" for this one. Going by the RRG for obstacles, the timing is something like:

  1. Are we "after executing a maneuver?" Yes, so the obstacle check rules can apply. The execution of the maneuver has happened.
  2. Are we "when a ship overlaps an obstacle?" Yes. A ship is overlapping an obstacle ("at the moment"). We get a crit.
  3. Are we "after executing a maneuver?" No. Because we've moved on from "after executing a maneuver" to "when a ship overlaps" - we're in a different time period, and we can't go back to "after executing" because "after" things only happen once.

This is why I used the "non-nested" qualifier earlier. You don't move from "after executing a maneuver" to "when a ship overlaps" - you open an "when a ship overlaps" nested period within the "after executing a maneuver" step. When the nested period is over, you return to the step right where you left it.

For example, imagine you already had a Ruptured Engines and a Damaged Controls critical card before you landed on the asteroid. Both overlapping and Ruptured Engines share a timing ("after executing a maneuver"), so you could choose which to resolve first. If you choose to resolve the overlapping first, this opens a nested step ("when a ship overlaps") within which you will resolve the Asteroid and Damaged Controls in any order. When you finished with that, you must return to the parent "after executing a maneuver" step, because you still have the old Ruptured Engines effect pending! ...and maybe a new one, too.

 

(Note that, you could argue that "when you overlap an obstacle"  is its own timing, which happens immediately (i.e. before all other "after you execute a maneuver" events). In that case, though, this entire argument is irrelevant to the HSA/Raddus/Profundity discussion - as there is no shared timing window at all, the analogy breaks down.)

 

4 minutes ago, Grumbleduke said:

I can also see the argument for "yes" to the Ruptured Engine question. That would be that the "when a ship overlaps" time period happens entirely within the "after executing a maneuver" period. So we're still "after" after we've resolved the "when," rather than having an "after" leading to the first "when", then a second "after.

Exactly.

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@DiabloAzul

While you're working on these...  Because I think these have the same "nested vs stacked vs simultanious-choice" issues as described in the Raddus Bomb concept:

 

Scenario:

Boarding Engineers, an Engineering Value of 4, and a target who has 3 Damage Cards face down, (at least) one of which is a Structural damage, which you know about because, y'know, let's say Dodonna did it earlier.

 

 

1) How many cards can be flipped face up?

2) Can we flip up cards that are generated by flipping cards up?

3) Can we flip cards that have already been flipped, and have been returned to a face-down state due to the critical effect resolution?

Edited by Drasnighta

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2 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Raddus and Profundity use the same language as HSA, so it's safe to assume they are meant to be played the same way. Otherwise you'd have 3 cards saying the same thing but play in different ways, which is just weird.

Ships and squadrons set aside are not in play. Their abilities and upgrades are inactive and they cannot be affected by any abilities.

They are not in play until they are deployed. And they are deployed at the start of the round. At that point it is still the start of the round (you have not yet moved onto the next phase) so they still get triggered. "The start of the round" is not over until all effects with that window have been resolved.

More generally, if resolving an effect with a timing window creates more effects with the same timing window, you still get to resolve them.

Thinking more about it... I think there is nevertheless some merit to your position. Except I would only apply to "when" effects, which have an instantaneous effect and timing window.

I guess ultimately where we disagree is on whether "the start of the round" is an instant (Raddus missed it because he was in Hyperspace) or a phase (Raddus came out of Hyperspace during the start of the round, and therefore still got to trigger). 

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3 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

They are not in play until they are deployed. And they are deployed at the start of the round. At that point it is still the start of the round (you have not yet moved onto the next phase) so they still get triggered. "The start of the round" is not over until all effects with that window have been resolved.

More generally, if resolving an effect with a timing window creates more effects with the same timing window, you still get to resolve them.

Thinking more about it... I think there is nevertheless some merit to your position. Except I would only apply to "when" effects, which have an instantaneous effect and timing window.

I guess ultimately where we disagree is on whether "the start of the round" is an instant (Raddus missed it because he was in Hyperspace) or a phase (Raddus came out of Hyperspace during the start of the round, and therefore still got to trigger). 

Also, there is no definition to "At" or "during" in the RRG. I think of "at" as being immediately. Something to ask FFG.

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8 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Scenario:

Boarding Engineers, an Engineering Value of 4, and a target who has 3 Damage Cards face down, (at least) one of which is a Structural damage, which you know about because, y'know, let's say Dodonna did it earlier.

1) How many cards can be flipped face up?

2) Can we flip up cards that are generated by flipping cards up?

3) Can we flip cards that have already been flipped, and have been returned to a face-down state due to the critical effect resolution?

This is a little different:

  1. "look at its facedown cards" is fully resolved first (and you don't get to resolve it again if more cards are later added)
  2. "flip a number of them" (where "them" is the set of cards that was defined in point 1)
  3. "one at a time" (meaning you fully resolve one before moving onto the next)

Point 1 is not a timing window, it's an effect that you must resolve fully before moving onto the next effect (point 2).

So, to respond to your questions:

1) Three: the ones that you got to look at.

2) No, because you don't get to look at them.

3) No, because "flip 2 cards (one at a time)" is not the same as "flip 1 card, then flip 1 card" (but rather: "flip 1 card, then flip 1 different card")

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Just now, DiabloAzul said:

This is a little different:

  1. "look at its facedown cards" is fully resolved first (and you don't get to resolve it again if more cards are later added)
  2. "flip a number of them" (where "them" is the set of cards that was defined in point 1)
  3. "one at a time" (meaning you fully resolve one before moving onto the next)

Point 1 is not a timing window, it's an effect that you must resolve fully before moving onto the next effect (point 2).

So, to respond to your questions:

1) Three: the ones that you got to look at.

2) No, because you don't get to look at them.

3) No, because "flip 2 cards (one at a time)" is not the same as "flip 1 card, then flip 1 card" (but rather: "flip 1 card, then flip 1 different card")

I'm hoping that it was the case.  But you've frankly got me questioning everything now.

And no less than 7 of the people who I have "told they were wrong" about the rules are needling me now.  Sharks in the water, I guess.

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2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I'm hoping that it was the case.  But you've frankly got me questioning everything now.

And no less than 7 of the people who I have "told they were wrong" about the rules are needling me now.  Sharks in the water, I guess.

You could tell them "You're the best man. I really appreciate your fleet builds. Keep up the good work." and leave it at that.

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1 hour ago, DiabloAzul said:

EPISODE IV: A NEW EFFECT

It is a period of civil war. Rebel forumgoers, striking from a hidden IP address, have won their first victory against the Evil FFG Empire. During the battle, Rebel spies managed to find a fatal flaw in FFG’s ultimate weapon, @Drasnighta, a villanous loremaster with the power to memorise an entire rulebook. Pursued by FFG’s sinister agent, @DiabloAzul races to the forums with his laptop, custodian of the stolen logic that can save his people and restore freedom to the galaxy… 

From Effect use and Timing, RRG p.5:

  • If two or more of a player’s effects have the same timing, that player can resolve those effects in any order.
  • If both players have effects with the same timing, the first player resolves all of his effects with that timing first.

Note that there is no mention here that effects with a common timing have to be "inventoried" or "frozen" in any way. There is, however, an indication that the second player cannot being resolving his effects until the first player has finished resolving all of his.

More generally, a "snapshot" of triggered events would be consistent with a "simultaneous" resolution logic, but that's not really how Armada works - throughout the rules you fully resolve an effect and re-evaluate the game-state before proceeding to resolve the next.

Scenario 1

First player: Admiral Raddus

  • Admiral Raddus is in play aboard MC80
  • Profundity is set aside by Admiral Raddus
  • Hammerhead is set aside by Profundity

Second player: General Tagge 

  • VSD is set aside by Hyperspace Assault
  • General Tagge is aboard set-aside VSD

At the start of round 3, the following effects trigger:

  • Admiral Raddus
  • Hyperspace Assault

Then:

  1. Admiral Raddus is resolved first because it belongs to the first player.
  2. HSA would go next, but there is now a new "at the start of round 3" effect (Profundity) belonging to the first player, which must* be resolved first.
  3. There are no more "at the start of round 3" effects from the first player, so HSA can now resolve.
  4. There is now a new "at the start of round 3" effect (General Tagge) from the second player, which (by analogy) must* be resolved now.

*: Of course, resolving it is optional, but if the player chooses to resolve it, then it must be resolved at that point.

 

EPISODE V: THE TOKEN STRIKES BACK

It is a dark time for the rules forum. Although Thrawn has been clarified, the Admiral Raddus rules have driven the players insane and scattered their card interpretations across the galaxy. Evading the dreaded FAQ, a group of freedom fighters led by @ovinomanc3r has found a new argument based on the remote rulebook section of Defense Tokens. The evil loremaster @Drasnighta, obsessed with proving @ovinomanc3r wrong, has dispatched thousands of counter-arguments into the far reaches of space…

I think our ovine friend has made an excellent point, in that the Defense Tokens mechanic shows that order of effects need not be decided before resolving them, and is continuously evaluated until no more effects remain.

There is simply nothing in the rulebook forcing you to set the order in advance. Nor preventing you from using a token that was not (yet) available at the beginning of the Spend Defense Tokens step, but that became available at some point during that step.

"Ah-ha!" I hear you say, "but Defense Tokens are spent during a step, rather than a specific point in time, and therefore do not have the same timing!"

...at which point I would be willing to concede, except that Effect use and Timing, RRG p.5 (again) says:

"Each effect in the game has a timing during which it can resolve."

In other words: all of the effects discussed earlier resolve during the "at the start of the round" timing. Ergo, "at the start of the round" is a phase with discrete duration, and as long as it has not ended (i.e. until there are no more effects with that timing to resolve before proceeding to the next) players can continue resolving their effects. And after fully resolving each effect (which, as revealed in the second act of Episode IV, necessitates re-evaluating the game-state), they can continue to decide which effect, if any, to resolve next.  

Scenario 2:

Enter the dreaded ISD Unlikely"After you discard a defense token, you may exhaust this card to recover 1 of your other discarded defense tokens."

Under Vader's ruthless command, the Unlikely has burned through most of its defenses. It has no shields left, and only an exhausted Redirect token and a readied Contain token. It is then attacked by Admonition, dealing just enough damage to destroy its remaining hull... except...

  1. The Spend Defense Tokens timing window begins.
  2. The exhausted Redirect token is available to be resolved, and it is spent.
  3. Spending the exhausted token causes it to be discarded, which in turn triggers the Unlikely title.
  4. The Unlikely title is exhausted, so the ship recovers any 1 of its previously discarded tokens, in this case the Brace.
  5. We are still in the Spend Defense Tokens step, so the ship now chooses to spend the Brace and halve incoming damage.
  6. The ship will live! Maybe it's best to spend that Contain after all (or not, if Admo rolled no crits).
  7. Regardless of the choice made in step 6, no more effects remain to be resolved (or declined) in this timing window.

As we've established earlier, "during the Spend Defense Tokens step" is analogous to any timing or trigger - including "at the start of a round". They all designate a period of time during which effects can be resolved.

 

EPISODE VI: RETURN OF THE ANALOGY

@DiabloAzul has returned to his keyboard in an attempt to rescue his friend @Grumbleduke from the clutches of the vile loremaster @Drasnighta. Little does DA know that FFG has secretly begun construction on a new rules update even more confusing than the first dreaded FAQ. When completed, this ultimate weapon will spell certain doom for the small band of rebels struggling to restore logic to the rules forum..."

I didnt read any of this. I'm just liking it for "Episode 4: A New Effect"

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