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Hope for Mantis/Spider/Etc. Players

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I'd like to see clans like the dragonfly, Wasp, Fox, Badger, Hair, Monkey, Centipede, Mentis and so on come in to play even if they are only Allied cards you can buy with influence but I'd love to be able to play them down the line too. As for the spider I think there an important part of any L5R story but they have to play a lesser and more believable part.

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5 hours ago, DarwinsDog said:

I hate to be that guy, but I really hope the spider clan never comes back. I was not a fan of their story and all of the massive retcon that went on to make it happen. "No the emperror totally had another son this whole time. Also there were tons of people in the shadowlands who were not really bad, but they were still tainted and following the lord of Jigoku. They've also been there the whole time, you just never noticed." 

Mantis seems likely since Yoritomo has already been mentioned. It would be cool to see a way to include shadowlands, maybe as a faction that you can only purchase with influence.

well, hate to be the bearer of bad news (not really, but its the polite thing to say) but we've already seen Daigotsu (sort of?) in the new story, and his girl Shahai is headed to the imperial palace to meet him. 

 

We won't get "spider", and a classic horde faction is hard to imagine workin in the current game, but those hoping there won't be some kind of corrupted mechanic/faction (featuring by the classic shadowlands/spider leadership) are going to be sorely disappointed. They were a part of the game as much as much as any otehr clan, and FFG is going to mine them just like every other part of the story. Especially considering the large (larger than any other clan's by the end of the ccg) and rabid spider fanbase. 

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If we're talking Spider from a business sense, you really need to consider the potential losses as well as the potential gains. How many spider fans are not currently supporting the game vs how many people will quit with the introduction of a shadowland/corruption-themed faction. Assuming both of those numbers are non-zero, how will this affect short term profits? How will it affect long term profits? Will it erode consumer trust?

Edited by player2636234

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19 minutes ago, cielago said:

but we've already seen Daigotsu

No we didn't. We saw two of the Emperor's sons. There is absolutely nothing pointing to him becoming Daigotsu yet. And, to be honest, there isn't even anything pointing to Shahai becoming a Bloodspeaker in this timeline.

 

22 minutes ago, cielago said:

but those hoping there won't be some kind of corrupted mechanic/faction (featuring by the classic shadowlands/spider leadership) are going to be sorely disappointed.

Oh, seriously? Can you point me to your personal psychic? I would like to ask him the next lottery numbers.

 

24 minutes ago, cielago said:

Especially considering the large (larger than any other clan's by the end of the ccg) and rabid spider fanbase.

Yes. The Spider fanbase were larger than any other clan's by the end of the CCG because everyone else abandoned the festering pile of garbage that became the story of the CCG. I wonder* if the the Spider prominent role in the story has anything to do with it, and with the CCG capitulating...

 

* I don't. ;)

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27 minutes ago, player2636234 said:

If we're talking Spider from a business sense, you really need to consider the potential losses as well as the potential gains. How many spider fans are not currently supporting the game vs how many people will quit with the introduction of a shadowland/corruption-themed faction. Assuming both of those numbers are non-zero, how will this affect short term profits? How will it affect long term profits? Will it erode consumer trust?

That's a good question.  Are there any Spider players who are refusing to play the game just because Spider aren't in it?  Any complaints I've heard from CCG players who aren't moving to the LCG seem to be about the mechanics being different rather than this faction or that faction not being represented.  

I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see Shadowlands appear in some way, or that Spider fans wouldn't be happy to see them return in some form, but I'm pretty sure that the majority of people who used to play the CCG and currently have no interest in the LCG will have moved on by that point, and are unlikely to be won back if they haven't already been by then.  

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14 minutes ago, Mirumoto Saito said:

And, to be honest, there isn't even anything pointing to Shahai becoming a Bloodspeaker in this timeline.

"Hey, let name drop one of the most famous bloodspeakers in the old game, known by everyone for her evil role as a villain... and we will make her the complete opposite! Wont that make people happy!"

If their goal was to completely 180 her character they would have just pulled a Hotaru and made a new character. She is one of the most iconic bloodspeakers next to Yajinden and Ichuban. While her story arc and plot might change, the idea that they wont make her into what she is famous for would be a waste that would have been done better with a new character without any baggage involved.

Just like Yoritomo, you don't name drop these characters without there being a plan to utilize them. ;) 

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1 hour ago, cielago said:

 but we've already seen Daigotsu (sort of?)

Did we?  

At this point in the AEG storyline, wasn't Daigotsu (a) an infant and (b) in the shadowlands?  I wouldn't be particularly surprised if this Unnamed-Son-of-Hantei-the-38th turns out to be evil.  His eventual interaction with Shahai points in that direction.  But this character bears no resemblance to Daigotsu outside of his lineage.

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I see another path that they could take for the spider instead of them being infiltrators spies and traitors make them tainted by the shadow lands but still loyal to the emperor have them become shadow lands expert and Hunters. The other clans would see them as lepers it could make for some great story hooks.

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4 hours ago, Yogo Gohei said:

Did we?  

At this point in the AEG storyline, wasn't Daigotsu (a) an infant and (b) in the shadowlands?  I wouldn't be particularly surprised if this Unnamed-Son-of-Hantei-the-38th turns out to be evil.  His eventual interaction with Shahai points in that direction.  But this character bears no resemblance to Daigotsu outside of his lineage.

And at this point in the story, Yoritomo hadn't even been namedropped yet. It would be years before piracy would get tied to the Mantis -- they were originally mercenaries, and Yoritomo was the greatest warrior in Rokugan's history, but not especially associated with boats.

FFG is not obligated to hew to any element in the prior storyline, but simultaneously, using the character names from before does raise expectations. Shahai was only ever a Unicorn in name only, after all, and while I'd like to see a loyal Junzo this time around, the same's true with him, too. While I don't know that we've got Daigotsu on our hands in the story, I'd be very surprised if the second son isn't him or a completely redesigned Iuchiban.

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44 minutes ago, SirEuain said:

And at this point in the story, Yoritomo hadn't even been namedropped yet.

But he was canonically an adult in those islands.

46 minutes ago, SirEuain said:

FFG is not obligated to hew to any element in the prior storyline, but simultaneously, using the character names from before does raise expectations.

I agree. Shahai sort of needs to turn evil or else why even bring her up?

But everyone is, roughly, the same age they were in Rokugan 1.0. Daigotsu being an adult at this point in the story would certainly be very interesting.  I am just very doubtful that is who this is supposed to be.

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3 hours ago, SirEuain said:

And at this point in the story, Yoritomo hadn't even been namedropped yet. It would be years before piracy would get tied to the Mantis -- they were originally mercenaries, and Yoritomo was the greatest warrior in Rokugan's history, but not especially associated with boats.

 

???

daikua.jpg

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23 hours ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

"Hey, let name drop one of the most famous bloodspeakers in the old game, known by everyone for her evil role as a villain... and we will make her the complete opposite! Wont that make people happy!"

If their goal was to completely 180 her character they would have just pulled a Hotaru and made a new character. She is one of the most iconic bloodspeakers next to Yajinden and Ichuban. While her story arc and plot might change, the idea that they wont make her into what she is famous for would be a waste that would have been done better with a new character without any baggage involved.

Just like Yoritomo, you don't name drop these characters without there being a plan to utilize them. ;) 

Yeah I don't see any reason to name drop Shahai except to scream to every ol5r fan that one of the most evil characters ever just got invited to the palace...

I wonder if Shoju's SCC will be morphed with the inclusion of Shahai, to give Shoju a more present evil, and a more convincing case for the SCC while simultaneously fracturing the story to not just be about SCC.  I could imagine it if the Hantei 38 were to die, and the two sons are vying for power - Shoju sees a proper omen that one of them is evil and goes to kill them both as a matter of security.  Meanwhile clans like Phoenix and Dragon can be with the SCC focused on Shahai and Meishodo, and clans like Crane and Lion can side with the Imperials regardless of any omens.  The Scorpion are right to kill the Hantei line to stop the evil, the Phoenix are right to seek to kill the bloodspeakers, and would want to interrogate both sons of heaven to find the corruption, but the Crane and Lion aren't wrong in protected the pure son (but they would protect both).  The Unicorn may be with the Lion / Crane because it protects their Meishodo against the Phoenix.  The Crab may side with the Scorpion or Phoenix, possibly both, as a matter of securing the empire against the taint.

Mind you we were told the new pack would focus on Imperials, and it already has our first goblin...  I think we can't be blind to that...

Edited by shosuko

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6 hours ago, shosuko said:

Yeah I don't see any reason to name drop Shahai except to scream to every ol5r fan that one of the most evil characters ever just got invited to the palace...

 

Let's not forget that Shahai is not necesarily evil at this point of her life. In classic L5R she first appeared as a character during the Hidden Emperor arc. Later on we got her backstory (on a RPG book, IIRC) , which basically was "daddy problems". What we can witness now is her new origin story. As it has been hinted in the tale, she will become stranged from her clan and family, which will probably lead to her following a dark path, eventually. However I doubt that's going to happen anytime fast with no developement. It will interesting to see. We already saw something very like the Ruby of Iuchiban in Kaede's vision, and the kid-that-would-become-Daigotsu will be living relatively close to her.

Edited by Mon no Oni

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I just had a thought.  What would happen if some of the meishodo objects that Shahai brought over to teach the Hidden Guard, some of them might also hold some of the essence of P'an Ku inside, or some of them could be Eggs of P'an Ku too (this is if the mad dragon is in ver 2 of L5R)?  

:o

Look forward to seeing the story unfold regardless.  

 

Edited by BlindSamurai13

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8 hours ago, shosuko said:

Yeah I don't see any reason to name drop Shahai except to scream to every ol5r fan that one of the most evil characters ever just got invited to the palace...

That argument falls apart when you consider that that fiction would have been written alongside the one that would have been shown if meishodo had been outlawed. That is, unless you believe FFG and its writing team can: conceptualize, write, proofread, edit, re-review, approve a fiction and then draft, proofread, edit, re-review and approve a blog post announcing the fiction all within 24 hours of knowing the players' story decision.

In fact, I'd argue that Shahai becoming Jigoku-style evil would have been more likely if meishodo had been banned.

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1 hour ago, Radon Antila said:

That argument falls apart when you consider that that fiction would have been written alongside the one that would have been shown if meishodo had been outlawed. That is, unless you believe FFG and its writing team can: conceptualize, write, proofread, edit, re-review, approve a fiction and then draft, proofread, edit, re-review and approve a blog post announcing the fiction all within 24 hours of knowing the players' story decision.

In fact, I'd argue that Shahai becoming Jigoku-style evil would have been more likely if meishodo had been banned.

Well - first off, is not an argument. I don't care if anyone agrees or not, it's all purely speculation in this thread. 

Second - Shahai wasn't mentioned until the second story, and i believe it was to be ominous. Who knows what ominous occurrence would have been used had meishodo became outlawed, but they prolly both involved making it seem like the wrong choice, full of evil consequences. That's basic GMing. 

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1 hour ago, Radon Antila said:

That argument falls apart when you consider that that fiction would have been written alongside the one that would have been shown if meishodo had been outlawed. That is, unless you believe FFG and its writing team can: conceptualize, write, proofread, edit, re-review, approve a fiction and then draft, proofread, edit, re-review and approve a blog post announcing the fiction all within 24 hours of knowing the players' story decision.

In fact, I'd argue that Shahai becoming Jigoku-style evil would have been more likely if meishodo had been banned.


OR... she would have been taken to the palace no matter what choice was made, as she could have been taken as a hostage if the magic was banned, as the Ide clearly knew she could have in the first place, and that outcome would not have changed no matter what the decision was, only the reason for her invitation to the capital. 

I dont think, in any way, that she wasn't going to be sent to the imperials, especially during the IMPERIAL cycle. I think the vote was for exactly WHY she was being sent there, to teach others her precious family secrets or as a nicely treated political prisoner. 

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