Jump to content
Mon no Oni

Keeper/Seeker only. Mistep?

Recommended Posts

I know this is being discussed in other threads, but I also thing this deserves is own thread.

So... I think printing in-Clan Keeper/Seeker only cards so early in the life of the game is a mistep by several reasons.

1)  Right now, the card pool is very small and every card counts. Every clan getting one each means that, even by the end of the cycle (over sixth months from now) almost 10%of the cards in the cycle will be unusable.  It is bound to be coasters, but coasters-by-design are a bad idea. Yes, conflict cards can be splashed, but that does nothing to the Clan X player that sees half the cards in his Dynasty pack being unusable.

2)  Also, because these will be printed across several packs, by the time of the World Championships are played in November, it is unlikely that the full set of 14 cards has been fully spoiled, so the Hatamotos of some clans will have better information to make their decisions that the Hatamotos of other clans. And even if you show the full set to them in the event (which would otherwise be really cool), some will still have the advantage of their options having been discussed in depth by the whole community, while others just won't.

Edited by Mon no Oni

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Mon no Oni said:

2)  Also, because these will be printed across several packs, by the time of the World Championships are played in November, it is unlikely that the full set of 14 cards has been fully spoiled, so the Hatamotos of some clans will have better information to make their decisions that the Hatamotos of other clans. And even if you show the full set to them in the event (which would otherwise be really cool), some will still have the advantage of their options having been discussed in depth by the whole community, while others just won't.

This is my only real concern...  When we first saw the roles there were certain impressions that were made.  When the Initiate cards were spoiled, it was practically a 180 swap in opinion.  If we see SOME cards that can be used, but not all of them... then people may feel quite sore about missing out on some freshly released cards for a full year.

What I think might have been better would be to release a dynasty pack before worlds that included a full spread of seeker / keeper cards for all clans all at once.

I'm not opposed to your point 1.  The reason is that cards aren't just clan only, but also splash cards.  So far they only have 1 influence cost, so they are actually really good splash material!  The intersection of clan + splash + role should give each player some spread of options.  I trust the developers to give good options as the rest of the game is great so far - I do agree fully with your point 2 though.  Giving some of these before roles are chosen means many options are locked off before we even knew them...  Imagine January getting a new card that you may really want to use, but you can't... because your clan is the wrong type...  and you have to wait all the way 'till next Winter Court to have a chance at it...

Some people continually mention that you can play with any role in casual play.  I think this position doesn't understand the precedence tournament rules give to a game.  I certainly expect to play some games using roles that don't match the official list, but these would be exceptions to the norm.  These games would be "experiments" just like playing with proxies.  Each week in regular L5R games I expect everyone would assume we use the assigned role, and that it is part of the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll reserve judgment until FFG reveals whatever their super secret plans are for the unselected roles. They've made mention on a few occasions now that they have some sort of plan for them, and the big secret is supposed to be revealed "after the Kiku Matsuri" so I would expect to get some sort of explanation (or teaser at least) within the next week or so. Right now we really don't have ALL the information about these keeper/seeker roles and everything they entail, and while it's not quite as wild speculation as when we first got that half-spoiled image of the Seeker Initiate, it remains speculation IMO. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm kind of surprised seeing them at all in non-evergreen packs. Since that means potentially a card could be printed that is never legal for it's own clan in tournaments. If it rotates out before that clan becomes a Seeker/Keeper. Even if their plan for the unselected roles is to let people use them, they could still be all Seeker or all Keeper...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm totally fine with it up until the point when they start making clan dynasty cards seeker/keeper only. If that happens, they've crossed the line. As is, while Lion can't use their current piece of tech sure, Scorpion and Phoenix could by splashing it. But if they print a seeker only dynasty card, that's a card that may literally never be playable by anyone ever because it's totally possible that Lion always goes keeper for example.

Edited by Khift

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Khift said:

I'm totally fine with it up until the point when they start making clan dynasty cards seeker/keeper only. If that happens, they've crossed the line. As is, while Lion can't use their current piece of tech sure, Scorpion and Phoenix could by splashing it. But if they print a seeker only dynasty card, that's a card that may literally never be playable by anyone ever because it's totally possible that Lion always goes keeper for example.

idk - Lion could go seeker / keeper to enable the card, if the card is so important.  Every game is going to have some worthless coaster cards, and while LCG have less than CCG, deck building and identifying the good and bad cards is still a skill a player needs.  More than that, even filler cards like Wandering Ronin serve a purpose in enabling a lower powered single core game, while multiple cores will almost certainly dump them.

What I don't like is only that a card may be released soon after the roles are chosen, so that card is not taken into account when choosing the role.  This can lock off a new goodie that may have been much loved by the players... but they have to wait a full year before they can put it to work...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are 1 influence cards.  I think they are meant to be played out of faction.  I think it adds another interesting level of complexity to the role choices.  I wonder if we'll get a full cycle of both seeker and keeper cards for all clans.  I mean it's only 1 pack of cards out of the cycle devoted to the mechanic.  That Crane card seems crazy.

Edited by phillos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like that people picking roles don't quite have all the potential information. I'm even fine with these cards popping up so soon after the choices.
I am amused that there could be cards, particularly dynasty, that never get permitted in OP, but all the casual players can use as much as they like.
I like that it would be very easy for them to introduce new roles, and think it will be funny when some complain that their clan didn't get a chance to choose X new role at the last Winter Court and now they can't use that new power at the next Winter Court.

Overall, totally cool with Seeker/Keeper only cards coming out straight away.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the idea of seeker/keeper only cards as it provides more weight to the choice of offensive seeker and defensive keeper. In fact it is similar to a prediction I made when they first announced the idea of keeper/seeker selection. And while it does limit its use what else is new. Lots of games have limits to what cards you can use at least this one has a better explanation then "we made it too strong". And while it might have been better to start off with a deluxe explanation with all of them in it monetarily that's not a good way to start and it lets the deluxe boxes contain big endings to each cycles story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Mon no Oni said:

Eh.... What?

I cant believe you dont understand that reference unless you are Steve Rogers...

 

Apart from that, your point is interesting, but I think it is a good idea to start publishing and spoiling these cards  from the begining, so that the leaders of the clans have better information when they decide again at words...

The evolution of the game will be slightly slower as the pool grows less swiftly, but  LCGs are so by nature anyway.

Edited by Koriume

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, phillos said:

They are 1 influence cards.  I think they are meant to be played out of faction.  I think it adds another interesting level of complexity to the role choices.  I wonder if we'll get a full cycle of both seeker and keeper cards for all clans.  I mean it's only 1 pack of cards out of the cycle devoted to the mechanic.  That Crane card seems crazy.

I thought that the article confirmed that they were planning to do that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just precising: It's not 1 pack of card out of the cycle, there will be 14 cards total spread thorugh the cycle. With and even spread, that means 2-3 cards per pack. 

Now of course, taking the long view it is just a drop in the ocean. However this is the beginning of the game. Picture this: You happen to be a loyal X Clan player (we do know clan loyalty matters to some players of this game, don't we?) and you just want to make the best possible deck of Clan X, but your Clan is not up there yet in competitive play. You are getting a slow trickle of cards to better your deck, only two new cards per month, and this given month your clan gets one lackluster card which you may or may not want to use, and a perfectly good card that you cannot use for at least a year (maybe never!), while players of hated Clan Y get 2 usable cards within the same pack.

Of course, things will be smoothed over time, but that's the key point: "over time". Timing matters and I do consider the timing for this cycle of cards is not the best. At what point in a race would you rather get a stone in you shoe, supposing you cannot stop and take it out, at the very beginning, in the middle or near the end, when you already have a lead?

In any case point 1 in my original post is a done deal, so no sense crying over spilled milk. I only hope FFG has considered the effects of point 2, and the whole community for all the Clans and not only the Hatamotos has the opportunity to know what the deckbuilding consecuences are for the Worlds choices in November.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mon, you are missing a very major point right now. Due to how the influence system works each dynasty pack is not just adding 2 cards to each clan. Pretty much every single conflict card, no matter the clan, is available for any other clan to use as long as it has an influence value.

Disdainful Remark is not a Crane card. It is a Keeper card that limits the other cards you splash to Crane if you want to include it unless you are Crane Keeper.

Time for War is not a Lion card. It is a Seeker card that limits the other cards you splash to Lion if you want to include it unless you are Lion Seeker.

This is how we must look at the Clan aligned Keeper/Seeker cards in the future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Mon no Oni said:

 Also, because these will be printed across several packs, by the time of the World Championships are played in November, it is unlikely that the full set of 14 cards has been fully spoiled, so the Hatamotos of some clans will have better information to make their decisions that the Hatamotos of other clans. And even if you show the full set to them in the event (which would otherwise be really cool), some will still have the advantage of their options having been discussed in depth by the whole community, while others just won't.

You assume that the community will know what it is talking about with these discussions. That is...occasionally the case, but not the norm for LCGs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, shosuko said:

Each week in regular L5R games I expect everyone would assume we use the assigned role, and that it is part of the game.

I think it would depend a lot on your gaming group.  If you have a large, semi-competitive group, I could see sticking with the official roles to get better ideas of what sorts of decks you'll likely face.  However, for smaller groups, especially, I think you'll see a lot more variation, just to help keep things fresh while playing against the same people every week.

I also think that if the roles are going to be changing annually, we'll see a lot more stricter play early in the cycle, when everyone's adjusting to the new roles, and a bit freer play later in the cycle, when the decks are more established (apart from cards released during the year, of course).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm fine with it. In clan it's a 50/50 if you have keeper or seeker; theoretically it's possible your clan never takes that role but unlikely in the long term. And I think it will generate good internal clan discussion over what roles should be taken. Maybe Seeker Void is great for one strategy but with Keeper you could splash that "insert Influence card here" for another strategy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Mon, you are missing a very major point right now. Due to how the influence system works each dynasty pack is not just adding 2 cards to each clan. Pretty much every single conflict card, no matter the clan, is available for any other clan to use as long as it has an influence value.

Disdainful Remark is not a Crane card. It is a Keeper card that limits the other cards you splash to Crane if you want to include it unless you are Crane Keeper.

Time for War is not a Lion card. It is a Seeker card that limits the other cards you splash to Lion if you want to include it unless you are Lion Seeker.

This is how we must look at the Clan aligned Keeper/Seeker cards in the future.

I see your point but, honestly, how do you identify yourself to your fellow players? As a Crane player, or as a Seeker player? What's the mon on your profile? When opening a pack, you will look at the cards with your colors first; the rest is secondary, even if weeks later in hindsight splash card from Clan X has become a key part of your deck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Tam Palso said:

I'm fine with it. In clan it's a 50/50 if you have keeper or seeker; theoretically it's possible your clan never takes that role but unlikely in the long term. And I think it will generate good internal clan discussion over what roles should be taken. Maybe Seeker Void is great for one strategy but with Keeper you could splash that "insert Influence card here" for another strategy.

That's my point 2. That's all well if the community knows the full range of possibilities. Will all 14 cards have been spoiled by November? If not some Clans will have advantage over others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, phillos said:

They are 1 influence cards.  I think they are meant to be played out of faction.  I think it adds another interesting level of complexity to the role choices.  I wonder if we'll get a full cycle of both seeker and keeper cards for all clans.  I mean it's only 1 pack of cards out of the cycle devoted to the mechanic.  That Crane card seems crazy.

From the article:

Quote

The Imperial Cycle continues to introduce the themes found in the Legend of the Five Rings: The Card Game Core Set as well as expanding on cards tied to the Seeker and Keeper roles. 

The Imperial Cycle will place further emphasis on the role chosen for each clan during official tournament play. Each of the seven great clans will receive a Keeper role only card and a Seeker role only card.

So yes, this cycle will have Seeker and Keeper cards for each card for each clan. Hopefully FFG will preview all of these cards before the Winter Court World Championship so players can make a more informed decision about the card pool.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, shosuko said:

 

What I don't like is only that a card may be released soon after the roles are chosen, so that card is not taken into account when choosing the role.  This can lock off a new goodie that may have been much loved by the players... but they have to wait a full year before they can put it to work...

I do not like the idea of hatamotos being influenced by these cards before the tournament.

I get the impression that they want the offensive decks to choose the seekers and the defensive ones to choose the keepers, taking away some of the hatamotos free will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Danwarr said:

From the article:

So yes, this cycle will have Seeker and Keeper cards for each card for each clan. Hopefully FFG will preview all of these cards before the Winter Court World Championship so players can make a more informed decision about the card pool.

Sorry maybe I've missed this, but where is this information?

Edited by L5RBr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...