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Imperial Cycle Spoilers

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There is something I don´  t like as a Dragon CLan O5R player. Every single clan except Dragon has received at least one old timer (Crab - Yasuki Taka, Crane - Doji Shizue and Kakita Yoshi, Lion - Ikoma Ujiaki, Phoenix - Isawa Kaede, Scorpion - Bayushi Yojiro and Bayushi Kachiko, and Unicorn - Ide Tadaji). 

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46 minutes ago, Isawa Tasatu said:

Well why not? you can do anything with the cards once you get them.... how do you think highlander decks came about, or any variation of the card games over the years. People made up their own rules and just had fun. Nothing stops anybody from doing this.... in the end for most of us  play amongst a small circle of friends and maybe at a local shop...... well I hope they are having fun however they decide to play the game. 

That’s my point.  People talk about roles as though they are the only house rule players could possibly use, which I find funny because players can use whatever house rules they want outside of sanctioned play.

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3 hours ago, GooeyChewie said:

I do think making Keeper/Seeker Clan-specific Dynasty cards is a mistake.  But outside of Northern Wall Sensei, every single card in this cycle is legally playable - just not always in a given Clan.

To put it another way, the vast majority of the cards in this cycle are Clan cards.  Having a Clan creates innate restrictions in regards to which decks can run these cards.  Should we complain that most cards aren’t neutral?

EDIT:  I also find it funny when people say the roles can be ignored in casual games.  Everything can be ignored in casual games.  Want to play Bayushi Shoju in your Crane deck? If you can get your opponent to agree to allowing it, go for it.

I don't think play a different role is something I need to ask my opponent about in a  non-tournament setting.

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3 hours ago, HamHamJ2 said:

I don't think play a different role is something I need to ask my opponent about in a  non-tournament setting.

You would be playing with a house rule. Would you feel the need to ask about using more than 10 conflict characters, or including influence from more than one Clan?  If so, why is the role house rule different?  If not, then I wouldn’t want to play casual games with you.

Granted, if you play against the same players all the time, it might be a standing house rule.  You might not have to ask every time, but the conversation should come up at some point before you play.

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5 hours ago, Sendatsu said:

There is something I don´  t like as a Dragon CLan O5R player. Every single clan except Dragon has received at least one old timer (Crab - Yasuki Taka, Crane - Doji Shizue and Kakita Yoshi, Lion - Ikoma Ujiaki, Phoenix - Isawa Kaede, Scorpion - Bayushi Yojiro and Bayushi Kachiko, and Unicorn - Ide Tadaji). 

I have a feeling that Togashi Mitsu is coming, no inside info, just a stirring in the Void that I sense.

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1 hour ago, GooeyChewie said:

You would be playing with a house rule. Would you feel the need to ask about using more than 10 conflict characters, or including influence from more than one Clan?  If so, why is the role house rule different?  If not, then I wouldn’t want to play casual games with you.

Granted, if you play against the same players all the time, it might be a standing house rule.  You might not have to ask every time, but the conversation should come up at some point before you play.

As I had it understood, the clan roles are obligatory only for tournaments and ffg events. For casual play you are free to choose any role you want -if any. It isnt even mandatory. Its just another part of deck building. There is no need to ask for permission because you are not going against any rule (as you are when, for example, you want to include more than 10 conflict characters, or go beyond your influence limit). This idea of playing clan roles on every match, casual or not, IS the house rule.

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7 hours ago, GooeyChewie said:

You would be playing with a house rule. Would you feel the need to ask about using more than 10 conflict characters, or including influence from more than one Clan?  If so, why is the role house rule different?  If not, then I wouldn’t want to play casual games with you.

Granted, if you play against the same players all the time, it might be a standing house rule.  You might not have to ask every time, but the conversation should come up at some point before you play.

It's not a house rule.  The rules state that a player may choose a role or may go without a role.  It's the tournament rules that require the role to match the clan's most recently chosen role.  If you're not playing in a sanctioned tournament, there is no rule limiting which role you can choose.

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On 12/2/2017 at 11:48 AM, Isawa Tasatu said:

I agree with all the points in terms of it slowing the card pool down, creating build restrictions etc.  And 1/6th of the pack is a good number of cards.

However I like the role system, it creates for dynamic deck building changes long term. And I have no problem with the idea somebody who has earned the chance dictating the way the clan must play in full tournaments. Casual play,  these restriction only applies within people's minds.  

So while I agree with the points I just dont see it as a bad thing in anyway.

Card pool evolution is enough to change deckbuilding over time (see what happened in AGoT over 3 cycles and 4 deluxes). The role system instead artificially restricts deckbuilding, which is really bad, considering each clan still has only 1 stronghold.

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13 hours ago, RafaelNN said:

As I had it understood, the clan roles are obligatory only for tournaments and ffg events. For casual play you are free to choose any role you want -if any. It isnt even mandatory. Its just another part of deck building. There is no need to ask for permission because you are not going against any rule (as you are when, for example, you want to include more than 10 conflict characters, or go beyond your influence limit). This idea of playing clan roles on every match, casual or not, IS the house rule.

From my experience - tournament rules are going to be the standard rules.  In a casual game I would assume my opponent is using the role of their clan, or I would expect them to let me know otherwise.  I don't think its on par with changing other elements of deck construction but I would put it on the level of playing with proxies of unreleased cards.  The game is played to test changes, or in anticipation of changes, but not a normal game.

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2 minutes ago, shosuko said:

From my experience - tournament rules are going to be the standard rules.  In a casual game I would assume my opponent is using the role of their clan, or I would expect them to let me know otherwise.  I don't think its on par with changing other elements of deck construction but I would put it on the level of playing with proxies of unreleased cards.  The game is played to test changes, or in anticipation of changes, but not a normal game.

Then you're working off of a flawed assumption.  

Moreover, think of it this way:  if someone plays strictly casual, does that person even know what their clan's official role is?  Assuming that a player who just shows up for a friendly game during non-sanctioned play has even heard about the official roles, much less used them in their deck, is just destined to end in frustration.  Better to just assume they could be playing any role, and check at the beginning of the game (it's not like the roles are hidden and private).

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14 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Then you're working off of a flawed assumption.  

Moreover, think of it this way:  if someone plays strictly casual, does that person even know what their clan's official role is?  Assuming that a player who just shows up for a friendly game during non-sanctioned play has even heard about the official roles, much less used them in their deck, is just destined to end in frustration.  Better to just assume they could be playing any role, and check at the beginning of the game (it's not like the roles are hidden and private).

If someone played without their official role, I think they would find out what it is pretty quick from the other players around them.  This game doesn't really work without the role cards especially with how many keeper / seeker / element role cards have been released.  I think its a bit naive to think someone could just pick and choose their role as they wished in this game.  Tournament rules are pretty much THE rules for any game unless you're explicitly playing otherwise.

I don't think there is any justification for ignorance of roles just because that information is online only - the rules reference document is online only.  You would have to be more than just a casual player to not find out the roles, you'd have to be like "my wife and I bought a box to play at home and we play once every few months" to be that level of casual.

Edited by shosuko

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3 minutes ago, shosuko said:

If someone played without their official role, I think they would find out what it is pretty quick from the other players around them.  This game doesn't really work without the role cards especially with how many keeper / seeker / element role cards have been released.  I think its a bit naive to think someone could just pick and choose their role as they wished in this game.  Tournament rules are pretty much THE rules for any game unless you're explicitly playing otherwise.

I don't think there is any justification for ignorance of roles just because that information is online only - the rules reference document is online only.  You would have to be more than just a casual player to not find out the roles, you'd have to be like "my wife and I bought a box to play at home and we play once every few months" to be that level of casual.

I wasn't speaking of ignorance of roles in general, but ignorance of what the clan's specific role is (I don't know my clan's for instance).  And looking up the rules, it explicitly draws the distinction.  

Rules Reference page 14, under "Roles":  In sanctioned tournament play, role card eligibility for each clan is determined by the Emperor’s Sanction list, which is established through player participation.

It is clearly stated that role card eligibility from the Emperor's Sanction list is for sanctioned tournament play.  For casual play, any role card may be chosen, and it is unreasonable to expect that everyone will follow the Emperor's Sanctioned list in non-sanctioned play.

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There is no argument - in every game I play, and every group I join, for board games, card games, and computer games - tournament rules are the rules.  If you do anything else then, well, you probably won't next time because people will correct you. 

Especially for L5R - a game well known for how closely the story and game are tied in to each other - I wouldn't expect anyone to NOT know their clan role, or to play it, unless it was specifically under the pretense of play-testing or playing "what if" like using proxies.

Edited by shosuko

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9 minutes ago, shosuko said:

There is no argument - in every game I play, and every group I join, for board games, card games, and computer games - tournament rules are the rules.  If you do anything else then, well, you probably won't next time because people will correct you. 

Especially for L5R - a game well known for how closely the story and game are tied in to each other - I wouldn't expect anyone to NOT know their clan role, or to play it, unless it was specifically under the pretense of play-testing or playing "what if" like using proxies.

Rules are rules, as you say.  And the rules say that the sanctioned roles are for sanctioned events.  If you want to house rule that people have to use the sanctioned roles, fine, but don't expect everyone else to break from the rules reference. 

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4 hours ago, Khudzlin said:

Card pool evolution is enough to change deckbuilding over time (see what happened in AGoT over 3 cycles and 4 deluxes). The role system instead artificially restricts deckbuilding, which is really bad, considering each clan still has only 1 stronghold.

It changed the deckbuilding over time but at what cost? 2 factions out of 8 dominating tournaments for a year with 3(even 4 before Stark box) of them being fundamentally unplayable. Great amounts of players just left the game due to how slow the changes were coming and how long they needed to wait for their house to be at least playable, not to mention the stale meta.

Card games are naturally restrictive and a few more deck building restrictions do much less harm than meta decks dominating the format for long periods of time without any variety.

Edited by BordOne

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On 11/1/2017 at 0:19 PM, Nitenman said:

Coming back on the idea of an imperial stronghold, I guess it would start with highest honor or produce one extra fate. In any way it should have a high value of Influence and/or eventually allow influence from more than one clan. 

If FFG is keeping the same lore for Yokuni in tact, then it doesn’t get more “old timer” than that. ;)

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3 hours ago, BordOne said:

It changed the deckbuilding over time but at what cost? 2 factions out of 8 dominating tournaments for a year with 3(even 4 before Stark box) of them being fundamentally unplayable. Great amounts of players just left the game due to how slow the changes were coming and how long they needed to wait for their house to be at least playable, not to mention the stale meta.

Card games are naturally restrictive and a few more deck building restrictions do much less harm than meta decks dominating the format for long periods of time without any variety.

The meta wasn't as stale (or unbalanced - unplayable factions, seriously?) as you say (the reason being that players were still free to look for solutions in all directions, and did). Also, plenty of players stayed in the game (unlike games where the meta really went stale at times, due to delays between products), even with L5R coming out.

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14 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

The meta wasn't as stale (or unbalanced - unplayable factions, seriously?) as you say (the reason being that players were still free to look for solutions in all directions, and did). Also, plenty of players stayed in the game (unlike games where the meta really went stale at times, due to delays between products), even with L5R coming out.

By unplayable I mean not able to compete on tournament level. Martell, Tyrell and Night's Watch were all but a joke on competitive scene(in the ```````````````````````````````````````1st year) other than occasional rogue deck.  

Right now there are many more cards to experiment with than there were in AGOT at this stage, even counting 10 of the cards excluded due to clan role.

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2 minutes ago, L5RBr said:

WANTED: Fate Has no Secrets spoilers.

I KNOW! I mean in theory I shouldn't support the people who were leaking all the cards, and I have to wonder if they were officially stopped since there's been nothing for pack 5 yet. But I really want to see what's coming next. I'm still holding out hope for a t cost imperial neutral...

ADD: Or any decent imperial neutrals really, Seppun  Ishikawa needs support to make him worth running in my deck. 

Edited by Zesu Shadaban

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On 02/12/2017 at 3:35 PM, GooeyChewie said:

EDIT:  I also find it funny when people say the roles can be ignored in casual games.  Everything can be ignored in casual games.  Want to play Bayushi Shoju in your Crane deck? If you can get your opponent to agree to allowing it, go for it.

Well, I play a 3-Headed Blue-Eyed White Dragon in my Scorpion deck, in casual games.

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On 12/3/2017 at 8:36 AM, shosuko said:

From my experience - tournament rules are going to be the standard rules.  In a casual game I would assume my opponent is using the role of their clan, or I would expect them to let me know otherwise.  I don't think its on par with changing other elements of deck construction but I would put it on the level of playing with proxies of unreleased cards.  The game is played to test changes, or in anticipation of changes, but not a normal game.

Luckily there are cards that tell you what roll your opponents are using!

The assumption that everyone thinks the same way you do is wrong, if you have or want to cultivate a culture amongst peoole you play with that you should announce a non-assigned roll before the match starts then thats all well and good. But to assume that others are in agreementt without asking them only sets you up for disappointment.

Communication is key!

Edit: all imo of course!

Edited by codegnave

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It's true, I find that tournament rules make their way to casual games too when I play with my friends at the kitchen table. Why? I guess it's the aspiration of "what if" they a tournament or event in the future, which they do sometimes. You can't hone your skills properly if don't play by the tournament rules.  

Also, they must have cracked down on leaks or something. The leaks are behind on schedule...

Edited by Hordeoverseer

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