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Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun

New Dreadnaught and Walker Reveal

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I guess I've been dissapointed with what Disney has done so far. I don't think we needed these sequel films.

It makes me sad that they didn't get to finish the Clone Wars the way they wanted. I've read the drafts for what was to happen. It tied everything up and would have been a fitting segway into RotS.

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2 minutes ago, Battlefleet 01 Studios said:

But that is the problem. Not everyone reads the books nor feels the inclination to do so, particularly people who are just there for the movie. That was what was great about the Originals and even in some ways the Prequels. They didn't really require you to go to great lengths to understand what was happening. 

Yeah, but when I watched the movie, I hadn't read anything, my entire star wars experience was the films (uncountable times each) and they didn't really touch on anything that you NEED the books to get. We know that the Empire ended, New Republic took over, First Order are rising from the ashes of the Empire, they are fighting to take the galaxy, they fire a mega-laser into the capital of the New Republic and have they weapon destroyed. All the books do is give deeper insight of the scenario and background happenings and give more pieces to the bigger picture

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There's a scene in the beginning of the novelisation of TFA that explains the background, but it was cut from the film (and not included in the opening crawl).

The Republic and Empire eventually signed a peace treaty. As part of that, both sides decommissioned their forces - leaving the Republic with just a small fleet hanging out on wherever its capital is.

The First Order is made up of former Imperials who, unhappy with the peace treaty, left the Empire to start up their own, new Empire out in the middle of nowhere.

The Republic refused to intervene because doing so would go against their treaty with the Empire (as the First Order was operating outside Republic space). Leia wanted them to, and pushed the Republic into it, but after people found out who her father was she lost a lot of support, so she decided to screw the Republic and go and form her own anti-First Order Resistance. In the start of TFA Leia sends one of her top people to the Republic to let them know how big/dangerous the First Order is getting, and asking again for help.

In theory both the First Order and Resistance are independent of the Empire and Republic respectively. But the FO accuses the Republic of backing the Resistance (not hard to see why given who is running it), and the Resistance suspects the Empire may be involved in the First Order.

It's not clear yet how the FO's destruction of the Republic capital, leadership and fleet will affect things with the Empire - although given how decentralised the Republic was, this might not be too big a long-term blow. Personally I'd like to see a reference to senior Imperial figures coming to the support of the Republic and openly opposing the First Order as a threat to galactic stability and so on, but that's probably because I'm too much of an Admiral Pellaeon fanboy.

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1 hour ago, Badly Browned said:

The Disney Trilogy makes more sense when you take it for what it is, a soft reboot of the franchise.

It should've been a full reboot, but Disney knew they could cash in on the nostalgia. 

I think that'll be left for future films. As long as Luke and the rest of the OT crew were alive folks would question what happens. Now you get a series of films to wrap them up. Then the design space is fully open. My guess is no OT characters make it out of the last film. 

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21 minutes ago, draco193 said:

I think that'll be left for future films. As long as Luke and the rest of the OT crew were alive folks would question what happens. Now you get a series of films to wrap them up. Then the design space is fully open. My guess is no OT characters make it out of the last film. 

THIS.

Wrap up the OT, then do whatever you want with no restrictions. I assumed this from the beginning.

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55 minutes ago, draco193 said:

I think that'll be left for future films. As long as Luke and the rest of the OT crew were alive folks would question what happens. Now you get a series of films to wrap them up. Then the design space is fully open. My guess is no OT characters make it out of the last film. 

Well, they've already lost two, we just need Luke gone, and if the series follows the OT, then he'll disappear in a puff of blue like Yoda.

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14 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Well, they've already lost two, we just need Luke gone, and if the series follows the OT, then he'll disappear in a puff of blue like Yoda.

Either that or he'll be enveloped by Force Lightning as he lifts and throws Snoke down a very long shaft. He does this to save a redeemed Ben from a vengeful Supreme Leader.

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10 hours ago, Visovics said:

So you are telling me that a ship tnat is basically the size of the cannon itself can do basically the same? A fraction of the cost? Sure! But in how much more time? And how much more protection does this dreadnought have to defend itself from other ships trying to stop it in its course?

The problem with going to big is, you wont be able to field alot of these behemoths. The Empire fielded 25.000 ISD's in their heyday, to cover and policy the great expanse of the galaxy, but they would mostly be tied to areas of interest to the Empire and not wasted patroling less significant sectors, they would most likely use smaller ships less costly for those tasks.

But despite of this the large number of ISD's would still be spread thinly.

So what would happen if they replaced the  25.000 ISD's with the 7km+ ISD type. Pure simple economics would dictate that the number of ships available would be significantly less.

Lets take something as simple as manning the ships

A ISD have a crew of around 46500 men on a 1600m hull = roughly 28 men per meter hull.

A SSD have a crew around 280.000 men on a 19.000m hull = roughly 14 men per meter hull.

So if we go by the last figure of 14 crew per meter hull.

Then the new 7700m long ISD would have a crew of roughly 100.000 men

25.000 ISD is manned by 1.162.500.000 men, divided by 100.000 = 11.625x 7.700 meter ISD's

That means the number of ships is 46,5% of what it would have been, meaning more than half of the coverage the Imperial navy had to inforce its influence is gone. After all a ship can't be in two places at the same time, unless it has some sort of time traveling device from Star Trek :P

However the new 7.700 meter ISD may be build in few numbers such as the case was for the SSD's and the First order Navy, may not have the same expanse of space in the Galaxy to inforce and police as the Empire did. So a navy small in number of ships, may have an advantage in building bigger and more powerfull vessels.

All in all its a balance of how much territory the First Order have to extract funding and resources from, VS how many ships do they need to protect their existing territorial asserts added how many more ships can they build and man, to expand, conquer and attack with. ^_^

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1 minute ago, Kiwi Rat said:

The problem with going to big is, you wont be able to field alot of these behemoths. The Empire fielded 25.000 ISD's in their heyday, to cover and policy the great expanse of the galaxy, but they would mostly be tied to areas of interest to the Empire and not wasted patroling less significant sectors, they would most likely use smaller ships less costly for those tasks.

But despite of this the large number of ISD's would still be spread thinly.

So what would happen if they replaced the  25.000 ISD's with the 7km+ ISD type. Pure simple economics would dictate that the number of ships available would be significantly less.

Lets take something as simple as manning the ships

A ISD have a crew of around 46500 men on a 1600m hull = roughly 28 men per meter hull.

A SSD have a crew around 280.000 men on a 19.000m hull = roughly 14 men per meter hull.

So if we go by the last figure of 14 crew per meter hull.

Then the new 7700m long ISD would have a crew of roughly 100.000 men

25.000 ISD is manned by 1.162.500.000 men, divided by 100.000 = 11.625x 7.700 meter ISD's

That means the number of ships is 46,5% of what it would have been, meaning more than half of the coverage the Imperial navy had to inforce its influence is gone. After all a ship can't be in two places at the same time, unless it has some sort of time traveling device from Star Trek :P

However the new 7.700 meter ISD may be build in few numbers such as the case was for the SSD's and the First order Navy, may not have the same expanse of space in the Galaxy to inforce and police as the Empire did. So a navy small in number of ships, may have an advantage in building bigger and more powerfull vessels.

All in all its a balance of how much territory the First Order have to extract funding and resources from, VS how many ships do they need to protect their existing territorial asserts added how many more ships can they build and man, to expand, conquer and attack with. ^_^

The thing is, they stated that the vessel isn't a ship of the line. It's a planet bomber, a mobile heavy cannon. It's purpose is to subdue hostile planets. Being, therefore, highly specialized, I would compare it to the Interdictor of the Empire, of which there was, I think, merely a few hundred.

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1 minute ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

The thing is, they stated that the vessel isn't a ship of the line. It's a planet bomber, a mobile heavy cannon. It's purpose is to subdue hostile planets. Being, therefore, highly specialized, I would compare it to the Interdictor of the Empire, of which there was, I think, merely a few hundred.

The problem is, most fleet Admirals would take one look at it and say: Why can't something that big and powerfull not be used in the front line?

The primary purpose of the British Battle cruisers in WW1 was to police and protect the worlds oceans from enemy commerce raiders, but having big guns and being as big if not bigger than a battleship of the line, they unententionally got involved in frontline combat.

So no matter how you twist and turn it, something that big will get involved sooner or later in front line combat, either by the owners own choice, or forced too when the enemy decides to get "involved" with it, with their frontline units.

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12 minutes ago, Kiwi Rat said:

The problem is, most fleet Admirals would take one look at it and say: Why can't something that big and powerfull not be used in the front line?

The primary purpose of the British Battle cruisers in WW1 was to police and protect the worlds oceans from enemy commerce raiders, but having big guns and being as big if not bigger than a battleship of the line, they unententionally got involved in frontline combat.

So no matter how you twist and turn it, something that big will get involved sooner or later in front line combat, either by the owners own choice, or forced too when the enemy decides to get "involved" with it, with their frontline units.

Well no, because from what I gathered, its top portion is filled with anti-fighter weaponry pretty much only, and the Planet Cannons are on the bottom, able only to face down, at an angle. So it's actually rather weak against capital ships, it's focus being to keep bombers off of it long enough to go about its business planet killing before it jumps out of the system.

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2 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Well no, because from what I gathered, its top portion is filled with anti-fighter weaponry pretty much only, and the Planet Cannons are on the bottom, able only to face down, at an angle. So it's actually rather weak against capital ships, it's focus being to keep bombers off of it long enough to go about its business planet killing before it jumps out of the system.

And when the enemy decides to lure it into attacking a planet and ambush/counterattack it afterwards with a task force of Capital ships and fighters, how much bombardment can it do before it needs to make a hastily retreat or get envolved in frontline combat?

You can't escape the fact that the big guns it have, is oriented at attacking well shielded/defended planetary system or other high profile targets, And such places if the enemy is not otherwise plotwise stupid, would have asserts nearby to counterattack with.

Or worse the enemy would use scouting forces to locate it and make a pre-emptive strike at it, before it ever got near a system it wanted to attack.

And even worse again, if the enemy posseses a navy large enough with ships that has Grav weld tech, they may even mount a large scale campaign to chase it down and destroy it.

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35 minutes ago, Kiwi Rat said:

And when the enemy decides to lure it into attacking a planet and ambush/counterattack it afterwards with a task force of Capital ships and fighters, how much bombardment can it do before it needs to make a hastily retreat or get envolved in frontline combat?

You can't escape the fact that the big guns it have, is oriented at attacking well shielded/defended planetary system or other high profile targets, And such places if the enemy is not otherwise plotwise stupid, would have asserts nearby to counterattack with.

Or worse the enemy would use scouting forces to locate it and make a pre-emptive strike at it, before it ever got near a system it wanted to attack.

And even worse again, if the enemy posseses a navy large enough with ships that has Grav weld tech, they may even mount a large scale campaign to chase it down and destroy it.

I didn't say it was an intelligent design, just specific. I'm guessing it'd be escorted by 1-2 Resurgents.

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4 hours ago, Grumbleduke said:

There's a scene in the beginning of the novelisation of TFA that explains the background, but it was cut from the film (and not included in the opening crawl).

The Republic and Empire eventually signed a peace treaty. As part of that, both sides decommissioned their forces - leaving the Republic with just a small fleet hanging out on wherever its capital is.

The First Order is made up of former Imperials who, unhappy with the peace treaty, left the Empire to start up their own, new Empire out in the middle of nowhere.

The Republic refused to intervene because doing so would go against their treaty with the Empire (as the First Order was operating outside Republic space). Leia wanted them to, and pushed the Republic into it, but after people found out who her father was she lost a lot of support, so she decided to screw the Republic and go and form her own anti-First Order Resistance. In the start of TFA Leia sends one of her top people to the Republic to let them know how big/dangerous the First Order is getting, and asking again for help.

In theory both the First Order and Resistance are independent of the Empire and Republic respectively. But the FO accuses the Republic of backing the Resistance (not hard to see why given who is running it), and the Resistance suspects the Empire may be involved in the First Order.

It's not clear yet how the FO's destruction of the Republic capital, leadership and fleet will affect things with the Empire - although given how decentralised the Republic was, this might not be too big a long-term blow. Personally I'd like to see a reference to senior Imperial figures coming to the support of the Republic and openly opposing the First Order as a threat to galactic stability and so on, but that's probably because I'm too much of an Admiral Pellaeon fanboy.

That solves a lot of the plot hole issues I (and a lot of other folks I know) had with TFA. As someone with fair knowledge of the requirements of operational militaries, it's a stupid fix that creates other issues (who fights pirates and who on either side was dumb enough to trust the other), but that's no worse than the EU's mediocre offenses, let alone its worst. 

Also, Admiral Pellaeon FTW

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3 hours ago, Grumbleduke said:

There's a scene in the beginning of the novelisation of TFA that explains the background, but it was cut from the film (and not included in the opening crawl).

The Republic and Empire eventually signed a peace treaty. As part of that, both sides decommissioned their forces - leaving the Republic with just a small fleet hanging out on wherever its capital is.

The First Order is made up of former Imperials who, unhappy with the peace treaty, left the Empire to start up their own, new Empire out in the middle of nowhere.

The Republic refused to intervene because doing so would go against their treaty with the Empire (as the First Order was operating outside Republic space). Leia wanted them to, and pushed the Republic into it, but after people found out who her father was she lost a lot of support, so she decided to screw the Republic and go and form her own anti-First Order Resistance. In the start of TFA Leia sends one of her top people to the Republic to let them know how big/dangerous the First Order is getting, and asking again for help.

In theory both the First Order and Resistance are independent of the Empire and Republic respectively. But the FO accuses the Republic of backing the Resistance (not hard to see why given who is running it), and the Resistance suspects the Empire may be involved in the First Order.

It's not clear yet how the FO's destruction of the Republic capital, leadership and fleet will affect things with the Empire - although given how decentralised the Republic was, this might not be too big a long-term blow. Personally I'd like to see a reference to senior Imperial figures coming to the support of the Republic and openly opposing the First Order as a threat to galactic stability and so on, but that's probably because I'm too much of an Admiral Pellaeon fanboy.

I actually kind of like the idea of the Empire coming back, especially with Pellaeon. The Empire had lots of issues, mostly involving two sith at its core and lots of corruption and strong/manipulative people coming to the top while pushing others down but at the end of the day there were still lots of people in the Empire who wanted to do good (though those who didn't drink the koolaid often joined up with the Rebellion) or people like Luke who just wanted to get off backwater worlds that offered little and were harsh to live on. Heck for a whole generation the Empire was the government and the symbol of stability after a galaxy spanning war. We see plenty of Imperials in books that are humanized, especially in the new canon, so there is a chance they might have set that up to pull that plot string down the line especially if they are lacking the more oppressive influences like Palpatine.

The First Order on the other hand is shown to more or less only be made up of extremists (the nazi style flag is a tad on the nose) and brainwashed people who had been stolen or taken as babies to be trained in to serve the First Order (Obviously Snoke/Hux were following the Jedi's 'great' example of indoctrinating people early). In the future they might try to explore the people in the First Order like how later books did the same for the Empire but at this point I feel they are very much trying to set them up as the clear bad guy. 

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Just now, GiledPallaeon said:

That solves a lot of the plot hole issues I (and a lot of other folks I know) had with TFA. As someone with fair knowledge of the requirements of operational militaries, it's a stupid fix that creates other issues (who fights pirates and who on either side was dumb enough to trust the other), but that's no worse than the EU's mediocre offenses, let alone its worst. 

Also, Admiral Pellaeon FTW

That is actually brought up in the book where Leia's parentage was outed. Basically you know how useless the Galactic Republic's senate was? Well multiply that by ten, you have two groups, one wants a strong government while the other fights for the systems to be independent and they basically just stalemate each other and never solve anything by being stubborn. The Twi'leks come to ask for help dealing with the matter but they basically tell them to deal with the matter themselves (though they didn't exactly help their case since I think Ryloth wasn't part of the New Republic due to the issues they had with the Republic in the past as well as the Empire.)

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8 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

The First Order on the other hand is shown to more or less only be made up of extremists (the nazi style flag is a tad on the nose) 

In Star Wars Rebels, the Empire's logo is even more on the nose, being red, black and white:

 

REB_IA_5982-1536x864.jpg

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1 minute ago, Animewarsdude said:

That is actually brought up in the book where Leia's parentage was outed. Basically you know how useless the Galactic Republic's senate was? Well multiply that by ten, you have two groups, one wants a strong government while the other fights for the systems to be independent and they basically just stalemate each other and never solve anything by being stubborn. The Twi'leks come to ask for help dealing with the matter but they basically tell them to deal with the matter themselves (though they didn't exactly help their case since I think Ryloth wasn't part of the New Republic due to the issues they had with the Republic in the past as well as the Empire.)

I understand I'm applying reason to Star Wars, but I hate that. That's not there because it would be reasonable, but because it generates plot tension. If that's not true, it's definitely the way it comes across to me. I hate crap that does that. Much of the EU is guilty of that, but a hilariously large portion of the new AU timeline does this too. LSG isn't building a universe, they're building a franchise on the backs of a universe that let them have that chance, and destroying the universe to do it. Sorry, I love Star Wars dearly, and I know I see the EU with rose-tinted glasses, but it's driving a wedge between me and a dearly beloved universe. Rant over

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6 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

Sorry, I love Star Wars dearly, and I know I see the EU with rose-tinted glasses, but it's driving a wedge between me and a dearly beloved universe. Rant over

Snarky associate just looked at my screen, read that line and said, "If you loved it, you should have put a 5 billion dollar ring on it."

 

 

Edited by Drasnighta

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