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Concerns over future of this game

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16 hours ago, Imwookie2 said:

I hate this crap. Who are you to tell people that have spent large amounts of money on a game not to worry about it?

The shear amount of people worried about the future of this game proves that it is at least something worth discussing. The classic "if there is smoke there is fire" applies here.

The shear amount of people worried is difficult to say.  On these forums, I'd say the majority of active forum users really aren't worried.  Who knows about the general population?

The point is that posts of doom and gloom (especially all these largely unwarranted ones) are at worst a self-fulfilling prophecy and at best meaningless.  What will really kill the game is no one buying it.  The only evidence we have of people not buying it is anecdotal evidence of "My lgs can't sell these!"  The only hard evidence we've had is that FFG already had to reprint.  That's a pretty good sign and it makes any talk of "ded gaem" utterly false for the present moment.  The game is only dead in certain local stores which is true of many games which enjoy broader success.  Armada is mostly successful, for example, but there are occasional stores that don't really play it.  That's fine.

So yes, people can tell you not to worry (at least for now) because we have solid evidence that the game is doing fine.  Anyone who says otherwise is allowing their vision to be obscured by their own experience and is failing to see the broader picture.  To be fair if your local scene sucks, then you individually may not want to continue to buy and play the game as you do need someone to play with.

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Honestly, most of this "worry" is just marketing driven hype.

Guys... Legion and Runewars are only superficially similar. The games are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES.

The guy who is going to be so glamoured by the Star Wars IP that he ignores all other games was never going to play Runewars anyway. He was never going to look closely at the mechanics, he was never going to get excited about the Terrinoth IP, and even if he played it a little, he was NEVER going to stick with the game.

Any gamer worth his salt is going to take a look at the actual mechanics of these two games and realize that they aren't comparable. One is a very moment-by-moment reactive ranged game about position, the other is a game of planning, counterplay, and maneuver.

Not only is there room for both, but they are each going to scratch very, VERY different itches. (And, frankly, of the two I think Runewars is by far the more imaginative system, whereas Legion is a streamlining of some very old, kind of outdated gaming concepts with a couple cool mechanics glazed over the top and a coat of paint with popular appeal)

I continue to maintain that the Star Wars IP is simultaneously its greatest strength AND weakness. It'll bring in plenty of fairweather gamers, sure. It also severely limits FFG in how they can expand the game and how many factions they can possibly produce without begging The Mouse for permission.

Ultimately, though, as I said... the guy who Legion is going to pull away from Runewars was never going to stick around anyway. No loss.

Edited by Tvayumat

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4 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

Ultimately, though, as I said... the guy who Legion is going to pull away from Runewars was never going to stick around anyway. No loss.

I'm not so sure about this because you're pretty much describing me at this point.  I played Runewars a lot, and as I said, I painted and based the entire starter box.  I love the game.  Love it.  However, my imagination has really been stirred by the Star Wars Legion announcement.  I'm literally planning a custom table for Legion at this very moment and I don't plan on buying any more expansions for RMG - almost entirely because of the this amazing new Star Wars game.   Honestly, I would be much more interested in upgrading my existing armies, purchasing the new factions, etc., if it weren't for Legion.  Just food for thought...

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12 hours ago, davepaulstanley said:

I'm not so sure about this because you're pretty much describing me at this point.  I played Runewars a lot, and as I said, I painted and based the entire starter box.  I love the game.  Love it.  However, my imagination has really been stirred by the Star Wars Legion announcement.  I'm literally planning a custom table for Legion at this very moment and I don't plan on buying any more expansions for RMG - almost entirely because of the this amazing new Star Wars game.   Honestly, I would be much more interested in upgrading my existing armies, purchasing the new factions, etc., if it weren't for Legion.  Just food for thought...

Really? Personally I am sick of Star Wars franchise - X-Wing, Armada, Imperial Assault, Destiny and now Legion. 5 collectible games in the same, regurgitated ad nauseum universe.
And it comes from person who spent a tons of money on X-Wing.

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On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 8:10 PM, Imwookie2 said:

I hate this crap. Who are you to tell people that have spent large amounts of money on a game not to worry about it?

The shear amount of people worried about the future of this game proves that it is at least something worth discussing. The classic "if there is smoke there is fire" applies here.

I think the idea is, if there are any people on the fence about this game, seeing the community in a panic is probably not open arms. It's probably a sign they should go elsewhere. I think the idea of panicing so early is worrisome simply because the game hasn't really gotten started as the factions come out more will come. I know there are people just waiting for Uthuk before they even get into the game. They may not if they see the people playing the game saying they think it's going to fail.

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4 hours ago, Click5 said:

Agreed. This thread should be sent to the bin

It's an important conversation to have. Is gratifying to see the community rally. This kind of action can galvanise folk to make more of an effort. No need to suppress others opinions, there's more than enough of that in our world as it stands. 

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8 hours ago, Hepitude said:

I tend to agree. As someone who grew up loving starwars and buying tons of xwing... I feel like Disney starwars has done me in. I'm not sure I can sit through another movie pandering to nothing but nostalgia. 

Do the movies have lightsaber fights? Is someone throwing stuff around with the force? Then keep them coming for me! But yeah while I am going to get into legion fully it is because it looks like ffg doing to 40k what they did rho the concept of warhammer fantasy... ado that is beefy exiting, I left that line there because well its hilarious how bad autocorrect can be what it should say is "so that is very exciting" 

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5 hours ago, Dosiere said:

I think it's all speculation until we get a year or two of organized play under our belts.  However it's gone so far, the future is going to be shaped by how well FFG supports it, and how much organized play catches on.  

Ya know, I didn't really think about this very important aspect of the development of RMG so far - we haven't had tournaments yet.  I can see people really getting engaged when there are serious official FFG tournaments that begin to pop up here and there.  

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Just dropping in to mention that, aggregating all the available data on Legion, we've been messing around with proxied figures and tools and really... Runewars is the better game. Like, by a HUGE margin.

Legion will get played because Star Wars. That's it.

Keep playing your games, keep building communities. Don't just throw up your hands and let a better game fall by the wayside because the new one is more superficially appealing.

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18 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Just dropping in to mention that, aggreginting all the available data on Legion, we've been messing around with proxied figures and tools and really... Runewars is the better game. Like, by a HUGE margin.

Legion will get played because Star Wars. That's it.

Keep playing your games, keep building communities. Don't just throw up your hands and let a better game fall by the wayside because the new one is more superficially appealing.

If you get a chance, I'd love to read an in-depth comparison of the two. What makes Runewars so much better than Legion in your opinion?

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2 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

If you get a chance, I'd love to read an in-depth comparison of the two. What makes Runewars so much better than Legion in your opinion?

I need to sit down and do a real point by point comparison, but until I do that, I'll give you my general impressions.

I don't think I'd call any aspect of Legion (that we have access to) *bad*. I also don't feel like it really brings that many new things to the table, unless some HUGE mechanics are still hidden away.

In classic FFG fashion, they've taken a lot of clunky, awkward legacy mechanics and streamlined them down, knocking the unnecessary bits off to make the game play smoothly and easily. 

Where the game falls short, for me, is that it doesn't do anything new. The command system is about as novel as it gets, and while it's pretty cool, it's not groundbreaking. It's certainly not as interesting as the dual-dial initiative system *to me*.

While it vaguely simulates the "fog of war" by not allowing you to just choose what unit you activate, but this can be worked around (issue orders to your only two vehicles and now all you're drawing are corps tokens) and it still results in units playing a very reactive game, rather than really having to commit to a strategy the way you do in RWM. You don't have to have a plan to play Legion, you just have to know who to kill first, and make sure you're moving into cover. I don't feel like I'm really playing my opponent, I feel like I'm playing their list (a familiar feeling from numerous other wargames).

For the most part, units will move forward, take ideal firing positions, and the next few rounds will be spent rolling attack dice, rolling defense dice, and hoping the numbers work out in your favor like so many other wargames.

Defense dice are as annoying to me in Legion as they are everywhere else. There are two of them, and one is strictly better than the other one. There is a *little* wiggle room in the question of whether or not you have defensive surges, so really there are four probabilities of defense dice, but the roll-to-attack-roll-to-defend system is just an incredibly unsatisfying one, to me.

Hearing "oh well those rolls were anomalous" doesn't really do anything to counteract how bad the dice swings feel, as a player.

Alternating activation is cool, I guess. It's definitely better than IGOUGO, but once a player finds himself down a few activations there is a lot of victory momentum. Maybe this will be balanced in wave one?

For some people, the fact that Legion *feels* so much like 40k, Bolt Action, or any number of other "traditional" wargames will be an appeal. Many people want that. Personally, it really turns me off. I'm looking for something new, unique, ambitious, and fun, which is why I'm playing Runewars and intend to continue to do so.

In Runewars, I feel like I'm actually playing my opponent. We are guessing, second guessing, feinting, trying to read one another, and comparing our guesses, then letting a roll or two decide how effective our guesses were.

In Legion... I go back to feeling like I'm playing their list. I don't have to guess what they might do, outside of vaguely guessing what priority their command card is. Past that, I KNOW everything they're doing. There are generally 1-2 actions that make sense for me to perform, I perform them, rinse, repeat.

I'm probably going to play Legion, like everyone else, because I love Star Wars, but Runewars is, in my opinion, a better game overall. This opinion is of course based on play with proxied components and limited information, so this may change, but unless they are hiding some pretty big secrets I doubt it.

Edited by Tvayumat

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@Tvayumat Thanks!

Earlier up-thread I joked that the only thing I got from the demos is that I should build Runewars terrain, but that's not actually the only thing that stuck out to me. One thing that seems novel for Legion is that you don't score points for kills; objectives are all that matter. The fact that you can ignore the objective in Runewars and aim kill as much as you can to win is pretty disappointing. Then again, I suppose you win in Legion if your opponent has no more figures to activate. But after X-Wing, I love the idea of more focus on objectives.

And I suppose it makes sense thematically for the two games. The Rebels will never kill enough stormtroopers to matter, but in a fantasy medieval war, you are basically trying to drive the other faction to extinction.

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Runewars has a really great system for managing downtime.  The simultaneous command dial setting really helps reduce the amount of waiting that you do in the game (obviously borrowed from X-wing).   Once the dials are set and the turns begin, the amount of decisions to be made shrinks significantly (you decide which dice to reroll, which cards to exhaust, and whether to use a skill).    The pacing of the game is really fast.  I know they run 90 minutes on average, but it always feels like a fast 90 minutes.

I also like that nearly all damage affects your score.  You lose 1 tray and that unit is now worth less points.  The units also weaken as  they take hits too (aside from heros).  So you don't have these full strength things with a dangling hitpoint outputting the same offense as they did at the beginning.  The engaged combat is brutal, stuff dies FAST.  It really gives a huge advantage to the first attacker, which moves all of the big decision making BACK to that command dial selection.  Move your armies correct, and at the right time, and you'll win.  

 

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12 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

I don't think I'd call any aspect of Legion (that we have access to) *bad*. I also don't feel like it really brings that many new things to the table

In classic FFG fashion, they've taken a lot of clunky, awkward legacy mechanics and streamlined them down, knocking the unnecessary bits off to make the game play smoothly and easily. 

 it still results in units playing a very reactive game, rather than really having to commit to a strategy the way you do in RWM. 

Having read the rules, played a few games, and watched probably well over 100 demos of it being played, I agree with basically everything you said. Highlighting the really insightful points. I still vastly prefer RW. Part of that might be star wars overload after having played 4 years of xwing, 2 of armada, destiny, etc. but part of it is just that I feel like there is a lot more room for faction identity, and it's more fresh to me. Also, the variable initiative is seriously my favorite mechanic in a long time.

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this confirms what I thought: RW is the inferior game for the majority, and the better game for those looking for hardcore PvP environment. 

This pretty much means Legion wins this round of Game vs. Game in the market, and knowing FFG, validates this thread :(

I myself will wait for Legion too. I play Warmahordes, so I have the best competitive game on the market at home, and was looking for a change of pace.

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22 minutes ago, Kaiju said:

this confirms what I thought: RW is the inferior game for the majority, and the better game for those looking for hardcore PvP environment. 

This pretty much means Legion wins this round of Game vs. Game in the market, and knowing FFG, validates this thread :(

I myself will wait for Legion too. I play Warmahordes, so I have the best competitive game on the market at home, and was looking for a change of pace.

I don't think RW is inferior or more 'hardcore'.  They're different rulesets.  Legion is about moving between cover, focus firing and using flashy star wars minis.  RW is about timing, flanking and using generic minis (but far more likely to be customized to each individual).  I do think you're right that Legion will have more sales.  I don't think that it makes it the better game, so long as RW keeps up 'enough sales' to survive they will both co-exist.   Warhammer's fantasy line is a much smaller following than 40k right? Yet it still exists.

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7 minutes ago, Glucose98 said:

I don't think RW is inferior or more 'hardcore'.  They're different rulesets.  Legion is about moving between cover, focus firing and using flashy star wars minis.  RW is about timing, flanking and using generic minis (but far more likely to be customized to each individual).  I do think you're right that Legion will have more sales.  I don't think that it makes it the better game, so long as RW keeps up 'enough sales' to survive they will both co-exist.   Warhammer's fantasy line is a much smaller following than 40k right? Yet it still exists.

Haha... are there actually any minis from Legion's time period that could be called "flashy?" I just think they look so boring to paint. Legion's game-play doesn't look interesting enough for me to consider switching from Runewars, but it'd certainly have a better chance if it wasn't Starwars. 

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1 minute ago, Hepitude said:

Haha... are there actually any minis from Legion's time period that could be called "flashy?" I just think they look so boring to paint. Legion's game-play doesn't look interesting enough for me to consider switching from Runewars, but it'd certainly have a better chance if it wasn't Starwars. 

People love stormtroopers, AT-STs,  and Darth Vader.

Actually that's going to be the biggest issue with Legion -- it'll probably be 1/4 Rebels 3/4 Empire

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5 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

@Tvayumat Thanks!

Earlier up-thread I joked that the only thing I got from the demos is that I should build Runewars terrain, but that's not actually the only thing that stuck out to me. One thing that seems novel for Legion is that you don't score points for kills; objectives are all that matter. The fact that you can ignore the objective in Runewars and aim kill as much as you can to win is pretty disappointing. Then again, I suppose you win in Legion if your opponent has no more figures to activate. But after X-Wing, I love the idea of more focus on objectives.

And I suppose it makes sense thematically for the two games. The Rebels will never kill enough stormtroopers to matter, but in a fantasy medieval war, you are basically trying to drive the other faction to extinction.

 

In all the games we played, with objectives, at 800 pts, one player was tabled before the end of the last round.

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52 minutes ago, Glucose98 said:

I don't think RW is inferior or more 'hardcore'.  They're different rulesets.  Legion is about moving between cover, focus firing and using flashy star wars minis.  RW is about timing, flanking and using generic minis (but far more likely to be customized to each individual).  I do think you're right that Legion will have more sales.  I don't think that it makes it the better game, so long as RW keeps up 'enough sales' to survive they will both co-exist.   Warhammer's fantasy line is a much smaller following than 40k right? Yet it still exists.

Confirms what, now?

If anything, it's a vastly LESS competitive game than RWM, with fewer interesting decisions and, IMO, fairly boring gameplay. Most of the fun is the theme. The game itself is pretty standard issue, and the results far too random.

Edited by Tvayumat

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