Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Archangelspiv

People's thoughts on reload action.

24 posts in this topic

Hey Everyone,

I am not a fan of this addition, my thoughts are ordinance should not be indefinite. I am not a Gunboat fanboy and this wave has been the biggest meh one for me yet. I am looking forward to Guns for Hire, but this wave I can take or leave. Even though there is the Gunboat, I believe Scum are the winners for this wave again, 2 Magilla Gorilla's with another ship or two for help, and they can slow roll in and make you rely on green die, which aren't reliable. But back to reload, the Gunboats title allows you to shoot Tractor Beams while you are reloading, will Expertise/APT Gunboats be the new threat? I think they are taking the game to a place I dont really want to follow with over complication of the game, but that's just me. 

Anyways, I dont think the sky is falling, or we are being sent to the salt mines, I am just curious on what people think about the new Action and what it means for future competitive gameplay.

 

Cheers

Arch.

Keffisch and MalusCalibur like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

40 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I don't think Reload is a problem so long as they're careful which ships it's available to.

Over-complication and increasing dominance of ordnance is not going to go away.  This will be the 4th wave in a row that pushes torpedoes/missiles and bombs so you have to get used to it.

adv slam may well have screwed that already, but i'm reserving judgement yet.....depends on how much action economy you can cram into those things to make up for chips

Edited by Ralgon
Archangelspiv likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

it's WAY too slow to be a problem

sure, infinite ordnance sounds shiny but it really isn't as significant as people believe when a lot of ships don't last much longer than two ordnance (either firing them off or getting them fired at)

when you use ASLAM (perhaps a gunboat shoot--despite--SLAM title) to accelerate reload, well you don't have chips.

 

and no worries, it's apparently everyone's favorite kneejerk reaction to believe scum wins everything despite rebels actually getting better off for having Low AND Nym, and despite this wave 12 guy being a literal B-wing. But trust me, reload is the least powerful thing on the scumboat (next to its utter lack of durability, ofc). Its entire purpose  is the bullseye arc

Edited by ficklegreendice
Stoneface, SabineKey and Icelom like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most tournament games are timed. You'd be able to get off, like, maybe 4 at most?  You can't fire it off on the turn you reload, and then you'll need a target lock for most of the missiles, so your actions are spoken for.

Odanan likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not a tournament player so take what I say with that in mind. A player invest in ordnance for an average of around 4 points then advanced slam for 2, for a total of 6 points in order to be able to shoot 1 out of every 2 or 3 turns and has the additional opportunity cost of having to using a TL or focus to shoot many missiles or torpedoes. 

How is this better than a HLC?

TasteTheRainbow likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

19 minutes ago, Wretch said:

How is this better than a HLC?

Guidance Chips, Proton Torpedoes auto crit, Harpoon Missiles area of effect damage, Cruise Missiles added die and ability to crit, just to name a few. Ordnance often does more damage than a HLC, but takes a bit more time and care to set up properly.

Edited by haslo
typo
Archangelspiv likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In fairness, the reload action is very strong, but it's also really well balanced. Yes, it's essentially infinite ordnance, but it's only firing every other turn thanks to the weapons disabled restriction. Yes, you can fire a 1-2pt cannon when your weapons are disabled, but only if you equip that title, at the cost of what will likely be a title that boosts ordnance. It's also only available on a ship who's primary attack is just 2, so it's essentially treating the ordnance as it's primary weapon, and being severely hampered when trying to reload them. Sure, you could up that to firing 2 out of every 3 turns by taking a second ordnance, but that's an investment/tax that you can opt into or out of (and one which will largely be valued based on what the missile title is, I'd imagine).

I think issues would arise if this was a mod that could be stuck on anything, but this is a specific new action that has obvious advantages, and less obvious drawbacks. The drawbacks for it are less of an issue on this frame due to the titles, but if an upgrade came out in the future which did allow for reload on other ships, the weapons disabled token would be considerably more difficult to deal with.

If anything, I have a bigger issue with Bomblet Generator than I do with this. At least reload forces you to decide when is the best time to fire, and plan your break-off and re-engagement routes. Bomblet Generator just lets you drop bombs with reckless abandon, and fire while doing so.

Weirdly, as much as I've been saying for ages that the Punisher needed an infinite missile upgrade considering those extra pods are literally just more ordnance stores, I feel like reload isn't the answer to that because of the weapons disabled token. It's single agility point and relative lack of speed means it's not going to survive long enough to make use of reload in the same way the SLAM equipped Gunboat would. Rather, I feel like Punisher needs something like an expanded EM card all of it's own. One that perhaps takes up a Torp AND Missile slot, and adds two EM tokens to each ordnance upgrade. That way, it's still limited, but it also doesn't inevitably die while reloading.

But I digress. This ship is clearly a secondary weapon specialist, and while I know people are flipping lids about the latest Scum arrival, I feel like this is still the most interesting one I've seen in a while. I'll be honest, I wasn't a fan of wave 10, and I completely checked out when wave 11 announced (still haven't even played since it launched), but Guns for Hire and the Gunboat are actually drawing me back into the game. As it stands, I feel like Gunboat with reload is more analogous to Corran and his double tap. Success with it will largely depend on timing those shots and knowing your escape routes in advance.

 

4 minutes ago, Wretch said:

Not a tournament player so take what I say with that in mind. A player invest in ordnance for an average of around 4 points then advanced slam for 2, for a total of 6 points in order to be able to shoot 1 out of every 2 or 3 turns and has the additional opportunity cost of having to using a TL or focus to shoot many missiles or torpedoes. 

How is this better than a HLC?

It has advantages and disadvantages, but lets take a 7pt investment on either side to use as a comparison: HLC vs Plasma Torpedoes (4), Advanced SLAM (2), Flechette Cannon (1).

HLC is a constant 4 dice secondary attack. It's pretty good, but you're not hugely likely to be rolling crits with it thanks to it's card text (sure you can with rerolls, I'm just suggesting it's less likely). It's also not massively cheap as a cannon goes, but that's primarily because it's so powerful.

Plasmas with reload will be firing every other turn, and only need to hit to trigger their card effect. As a result, you can pretty reliably strip shields on a target in short order. Flechette cannon then gets to fire on the alternate turns, which may only be able to do one damage max, but is still boosting your attack dice by one over your primary - making it slightly easier to land that hit, especially on lower agility ships - and has the added effect of a stress token.

Another example is Concussion Missiles, Advanced SLAM, Tractor Beam. Again, 7 points total, with Concs having built in Guidance Chips to guarantee at least one hit. Tractor beam on the alternate rounds doesn't sound like much, but if it's on a ship with an equal or higher PS than the rest of your squad, it can often put in quite a bit of work by forcing token spending to avoid the shot, or the shot landing and dropping that agility down. You may even be able to force the target ship onto a bomb or rock.

Archangelspiv likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reload takes an action and take your shot for the turn (barring the gunships title and 2pt cannon) so it slows down your offense. It runs cheaper* than adding Extra Munitions on your ships and doesn't take a slot so there is some benefit there. But its not all that great as it reduces the consistency of your damage output and action efficiency. Consider the Punisher, it usually dies before it can empty its weapons, reloading wouldn't help it at all. Although honestly, following FFG's stated goal of releasing new content instead of fixing old content, I think the gunship is an outright replacement for the Punisher as an ordinance carrier leaving the Punisher as a Scimitar minefield mapper or Deathrain; Redline may as well be retired now. 

I like reload, but I'm not going to be screaming about how awesome it is. Its nice.

*opportunity cost of having a different action on the bar?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In defense of the HLC (and other cannons) in comparison to ordnance: Most missiles and torpedos need a targetlock on the target which makes it difficult to effectively focus your fire on the target with highest priority. At least against a good opponent that can make a huge difference.

ObiWonka likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to bring up the case of the reloading mechanic already in game, namely Quinn Jast. Quinn is a fun little ship who has a potentially better reload mechanic than the action in her pilot ability as it doesn't actually cost an action. While fun, she's not exactly setting the world on fire currently. True, the Gunboat and Kimogila are beefier than a Scyk, but they are also less agile. There is an almost certainty that the Scyk has the best dial of the three, meaning it can run to reload better than the other two, even do red maneuvers and reload. Finally, Quinn can be kitted out pretty well at 24-25 points, meaning it can be slotted in with some other heavy hitters and not take up a third of the list. 

Despite these advantages, Quinn's ability hasn't made that many waves since release. Now, this isn't an exact comparison. There are differences and some are quite profound. But I still feel that with Quinn in mind,  if the Reload Action is kept on proper ships (the Punisher sounds good, and I kind of want it for the Y-Wing to give using it as a torp carrier a boost), then it shouldn't be too problematic.

Also remember that there are a lot of ships that take Extra Munitions that don't always get off all of their ordinance. 

NakedDex and Icelom like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's a very weak action to take. 

What it does well is gives you something to do if you totally borked up your previous turns and have your ship completely out of the fight both offensively and defensively. 

Reload will be nice to have as an option, but it certainly won't be a game changing mechanic. If it was an upgrade card at anything more than 0 points on ships with an empty slot for it I don't think we would see much use of it.  

It is much better on the star wing then the Kimogila simply because you are giving up less by not shooting on the re-load turn. 

What you are giving up is 1 action and one turn of shooting. That's an extremely high price to pay unless your ship is off being useless... but if that's the case you are probably screwed.

Let's take the Kimogila, say I fire a concussion missile off, then have 2 turns of my primary with modifying actions compared to firing of my concussion missile twice in 2 turns and doing nothing else? am I really getting a lot more out of my ship? no, i am in fact firing 2+ less red dice.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, kris40k said:

Reload takes an action and take your shot for the turn (barring the gunships title and 2pt cannon) so it slows down your offense. It runs cheaper* than adding Extra Munitions on your ships and doesn't take a slot so there is some benefit there. But its not all that great as it reduces the consistency of your damage output and action efficiency. Consider the Punisher, it usually dies before it can empty its weapons, reloading wouldn't help it at all. Although honestly, following FFG's stated goal of releasing new content instead of fixing old content, I think the gunship is an outright replacement for the Punisher as an ordinance carrier leaving the Punisher as a Scimitar minefield mapper or Deathrain; Redline may as well be retired now. 

I like reload, but I'm not going to be screaming about how awesome it is. Its nice.

*opportunity cost of having a different action on the bar?

Tie advanced prototypes are my ordinance carriers of choice for Empire very strong title for missiles and a price I can stomack. Will the alpha class take that spot? I highly doubt it as the TAP title is just so strong for missiles. The odds of a cheap missile ship being able to afford to waste an action and turn shooting on the reload action are very small. the Gunboats 7 hit points might make me reconsider but the reload action is just a nice option that will probably rarely be used.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

all it means is assuming the ship survives the alpha it will get 1 more shot than usual with EMs, but over the course of minimum 6 turns vs potential back to back with EM.

Gunboat having SLAM might make it difficult to take down fast enough but somehow i doubt the kimo-therapy will ever use reload more than once before dying.

Lord knows if they give it to the Punisher it will be completely non-effective. Punisher already needs its action to even stay alive (boost because pathetic dial to get away or focus + lwf to potentially survive attacks).

Malasombra and Icelom like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Icelom said:

Tie advanced prototypes are my ordinance carriers of choice for Empire very strong title for missiles and a price I can stomack. Will the alpha class take that spot? I highly doubt it as the TAP title is just so strong for missiles. The odds of a cheap missile ship being able to afford to waste an action and turn shooting on the reload action are very small. the Gunboats 7 hit points might make me reconsider but the reload action is just a nice option that will probably rarely be used.

With advanced SLAM it can go, I am guessing it has a 4 straight, so It "10" forward to get away and advance SLAM to Reload. Reload action says remove all weapon disabled toked at the end of the turn, doesnt matter how many you have. You are giving up chimps for it, but with reload you dont need to squeeze every hit onto a die because you can shoot it again next turn. Cost will be the interesting factor, ie what will the lower generics come in as. 

Malasombra likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love it. It's something new, something that will be unique among the many ships. Adds a newish mechanic to the game. For me it's only a positive. Just like the bullseye firing arc. Should be only available to a few ships. 

I like where FFG is taking the game with new ideas and abilities. It'll really enhance the game and keep it from getting stale. 

Odanan likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, Cerve said:

How many Quinn Jast did you seen on the table?

If Quin had 7 health, probably a lot more. You are looking at it the wrong way with Quin, she has to give up her ability to do what these generics can do for an action behind a tougher ship. Your argument about Quin in null and void and not very well thought out. 

 

That sounded snarky, hence the edit. What I am trying to say is, with Advance SLAM on the Starwing, Reload is essentially a free action if you aren't stressed, bump or run over an obstacle. If you do a 4 straight, SLAM to a 4K maybe, then I would have to check the timing chart whether you could free action then apply the stress or you have to apply the stress first, then you are set up for your next run.

Edited by Archangelspiv

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems FFG finally admitted the best thing for ordnance is to allow players to flip the card back. Attack Wing used disable tokens after firing for... meh effect, but it's taken FFG several waves to catch up.

Oddly I think this and the two cannon slots make the Gunboat a great fighter. Let's see what the dial's like... I'd hate to think this fighter is really a brick when everything else about it looks good. At least, looks good to my wave 5 eyes when I last really invested in this game.

Archangelspiv and Odanan like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing with the Gunboat in the original game is it was a powerhouse with ordnance and it's ion cannons.

With how ordnance is designed right now it's impossible to achieve that effect unless your name is Jumpmaster 5000-overpowered-toiletseat.

And the thing is that's how a real space missile barrage would go. I don't know if you've played Empire at War, but anytime your ordnance carriers attacked a capital ship or station, they would make a bee line towards the target, fire off a barrage, bank off, turn around, fire again, repeat. The turning around thing is them reloading and getting a better angle.

I for one dig the reload action, at least on the Gunboat because, Lord willing they have a k turn, I can play it as an actual ordnance carrier. Far too many fights in X wing become circling around an asteroid or hard turning and boosting/barrel rolling or firing out your a** while running away like a rebel b****.

The reload action may not be the best designed thing in the game, but it's the best thing they could do with how ordnance is designed in the first place.

Odanan likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

12 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

Lord knows if they give it to the Punisher it will be completely non-effective. Punisher already needs its action to even stay alive (boost because pathetic dial to get away or focus + lwf to potentially survive attacks).

A free reload action will do... but i don't think the punisher has an effective way to disengage without SLAM, in the disabled weapons turn....

 

Edited by Malasombra
derp
Archangelspiv likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ordnance platforms are usually happy to fire their big weapons once. If they fire them twice (with extra munitions) they're considered to be used very successfully. From that perspective "infinite" ordnance from reload seems like a bad joke. You won't get infinite opportunities to shoot ordnance unless you're leagues better than your opponent. You'll shoot once or twice before either going down or finishing off the opponent.

Besides, we've already had infinite ordnance for a couple of months or so with Quinn Jast. Seen him dominate the meta? Exactly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lightrock said:

Ordnance platforms are usually happy to fire their big weapons once. If they fire them twice (with extra munitions) they're considered to be used very successfully. From that perspective "infinite" ordnance from reload seems like a bad joke. You won't get infinite opportunities to shoot ordnance unless you're leagues better than your opponent. You'll shoot once or twice before either going down or finishing off the opponent.

Besides, we've already had infinite ordnance for a couple of months or so with Quinn Jast. Seen him dominate the meta? Exactly.

I believe we'll have to wait and see. Fanatical devotion to the Glorious Gunboat aside, from what I've seen of the ship purely as an ordnance carrier I think it can make the reload action worth it.

Think of it this way, most ordnance carriers (aside from that stupid designed toilet seat) either suffer from low durability (TIE Bomber) low maneuverability (Y-Wing) or over costing (TIE Punisher)

The Gunboat, on paper at least, has good durability (7 health behind 2 evade isn't too bad) good maneuverability (we can see it has a white 3 bank, and with the inclusion of SLAM it can get places fast) and the highest PS pilot costing 26 (1 less from Redline and same cost as Major Rhymer) we can (hope) suggest that the generic pilot won't be so expensive you can't run multiples.

With Adv. Slam and Reload coming in the Gunboat can do something that no other ordnance carrier prior could do: actual ordnance runs. The TIE Bomber has trouble getting away from enemies to get another shot off with their ordnance or they pop before they have the chance. Y Wings suffer from the same thing in addition to being stapled as turret carriers. TIE Punishers just melt before they even get shot at.

Like I said, I think we'll just have to wait and see before the forums pronounce this ship dead on arri- oh they already did. Dang.

Archangelspiv likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0