Padawan Universal Tree

[mouthymerc 4,483]

Oh good, a talent tree with cherry-picked talents. Never seen that before. Might want to do a search on Padawan trees for reference.

First of all, you need to have agreement that a padawan is able to be replicated by one talent tree. Personally I don't agree with such thought. If you want a 15 year old padawan on par with movies/media/etc then they need to start with more XP and multiple trees, not one tree.

Why is the tree so focused on lightsaber use? We already have lightsaber trees. Kind of makes taking those irrelevant. Especially with the added bonus of Force Rating.

 

[Luahk 161]

On 22/08/2017 at 6:49 PM, Underachiever599 said:

Ahsoka. Barriss. Obi-Wan. Kanan. Ezra. Need I go on? All of these characters had "improved reflect" as Padawans. Which is why I included the two improved talents. I see the point peopl are trying to make, but I'm feeling as though my original point was missed. This isn't a spec for players, it's a spec to build a Clone Wars-era Jedi with as little bookkeeping as necessary. 

If I did not already make it clear here I want to point out that I do not believe that the game represents accurately enough or expresses the reality of what level a force user who was trained from an early age always to be a jedi/sith would be like. 

The issue comes from the manual saying "Knight level" is somewhere around 300 xp which is a bag of rubbish.

I do believe that most, if not all, padawans would be at least FR 2 and competent with most of the skilled you've listed however I do also think that there is no need for a tree just more xp in order to build a full fledged jedi padawan. 

I think people get too stuck in the level of an "advanced player" in force and destiny not one who existed with the entirety of the prequel jedi academy at their disposal and who have been guided effectively through their training. 

The starting exp for a padawan might be north of 300-400 rather than 100-120 its a different world and era it's a different galaxy for a jedi. 

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

I'd contend that a Padawan trained by the Jedi Order would not only have at least 150XP to start with, but would be built using Jedi-specific careers (which likely started with Force Rating 2) and specializations that F&D PCs simply don't have access to.

For the specific characters mentioned, Ahsoka and Obi-Wan are amongst the "superstars" of their era, being far more capable and talented than many of their immediate peers.  Presuming he was about 25 years old when TPM occurred Obi-Wan was only his late 30's by the time he was promoted to the Jedi Council, likely making him one of the youngest members of the Order to properly earn a seat on the Council.  Ahsoka, if one presumes that she was built using F&D rules, is probably a Sentinel/Shien Expert, who with 150 bonus XP for being Knight Level can easily start play with Improved Reflect.  Barris Offee is an experienced Jedi Padawan that is the same age as Anakin, so she too could easily have purchased a specialization over time that provides her with Improved Reflect and a Force Rating bump (there's at least two currently in print, the Sentry in Endless Vigil and the Arbiter in Disciples of Harmony).

That being said, I did create a Jedi Initiate universal specialization back during the EotE days, and revamped it to account for rules introduced in F&D, but only provided Improved Parry and a single Force Rating, and then setting up the tree so that the two talents were on opposed sides of the talent tree, so that going after one wouldn't lead you immediately to the other; in fact going for the Force Rating increase meant you were avoiding the bulk of the lightsaber-related talents that the spec offers.  And this was fully by design, as while the spec is nice and certainly offers some perks, it's also not something that every PC is going to want to take either, as there are other specs that provide a quicker route to Force Rating or easier access to Improved Parry.

Also, since NPCs don't use talent trees at all, if the GM wants to build an NPC that fits the mold of a Jedi Padawan/Knight/Master, you can just simply assign them the skill ranks, talents, and Force abilities you feel they need to fill that role, so creating a talent tree for NPC use only is superfluous, given that only the PCs have to worry about spending XP to purchase things like skill ranks, talents, or Force powers.

[Luahk 161]

2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I'd contend that a Padawan trained by the Jedi Order would not only have at least 150XP to start with, but would be built using Jedi-specific careers (which likely started with Force Rating 2) and specializations that F&D PCs simply don't have access to.

For the specific characters mentioned, Ahsoka and Obi-Wan are amongst the "superstars" of their era, being far more capable and talented than many of their immediate peers.  Presuming he was about 25 years old when TPM occurred Obi-Wan was only his late 30's by the time he was promoted to the Jedi Council, likely making him one of the youngest members of the Order to properly earn a seat on the Council.  Ahsoka, if one presumes that she was built using F&D rules, is probably a Sentinel/Shien Expert, who with 150 bonus XP for being Knight Level can easily start play with Improved Reflect.  Barris Offee is an experienced Jedi Padawan that is the same age as Anakin, so she too could easily have purchased a specialization over time that provides her with Improved Reflect and a Force Rating bump (there's at least two currently in print, the Sentry in Endless Vigil and the Arbiter in Disciples of Harmony).

That being said, I did create a Jedi Initiate universal specialization back during the EotE days, and revamped it to account for rules introduced in F&D, but only provided Improved Parry and a single Force Rating, and then setting up the tree so that the two talents were on opposed sides of the talent tree, so that going after one wouldn't lead you immediately to the other; in fact going for the Force Rating increase meant you were avoiding the bulk of the lightsaber-related talents that the spec offers.  And this was fully by design, as while the spec is nice and certainly offers some perks, it's also not something that every PC is going to want to take either, as there are other specs that provide a quicker route to Force Rating or easier access to Improved Parry.

Also, since NPCs don't use talent trees at all, if the GM wants to build an NPC that fits the mold of a Jedi Padawan/Knight/Master, you can just simply assign them the skill ranks, talents, and Force abilities you feel they need to fill that role, so creating a talent tree for NPC use only is superfluous, given that only the PCs have to worry about spending XP to purchase things like skill ranks, talents, or Force powers.

I just think that they are still padawans who are much more experienced. My issue is that 250-300 xp would still be a padawan level person. That's how I feel about it. 

I think having a tree which can give you specifics for significantly lower since it's all in one place defeats the point. The point is to reach a level where by you are competent enough to be taking the trials for example you'll have been on several missions and partaken in lots of challenging encounters. Thus you'd have acquired lots of experience points and have broadened your ability spectrum. 

Like you and underachiever said those people are well known padawan learners who each are at the feet of respected jedi. To build young obi wan from TPM would cost a lot of exp. Not simply having a focused tree. 

[Daeglan 5,950]

22 minutes ago, Luahk said:

I just think that they are still padawans who are much more experienced. My issue is that 250-300 xp would still be a padawan level person. That's how I feel about it. 

I think having a tree which can give you specifics for significantly lower since it's all in one place defeats the point. The point is to reach a level where by you are competent enough to be taking the trials for example you'll have been on several missions and partaken in lots of challenging encounters. Thus you'd have acquired lots of experience points and have broadened your ability spectrum. 

Like you and underachiever said those people are well known padawan learners who each are at the feet of respected jedi. To build young obi wan from TPM would cost a lot of exp. Not simply having a focused tree. 

Well as the Devs have said the Careers in the books do not make Jedi.

[syrath 1,316]

I agree with most here, in that , this as a specialisation is overpowered. Most padawans ready for the trials will likely be two specializations, one lightsaber tree and one not they dont have to have that many talents but will lokely be close ,if not already have their second force rating. 

It was once said that a good judge of whether something was OP was if everyone wanted to choose this. On a power level there is no one specialization in the game this far that provides the overall general power this does. it has more reflect and parry in it than most of the lightsaber specializations do as well as adding force rating and many of the best general force talents ib the game to boot. On a power scale alone it is a better 2nd lightsaber spec than any other created so far because it has a force rating. All the form lightsaber specs also require you to buy a talent that links the skill to a characteristic and have talents that link to using that characteristic, this means that for example if you buy Ataru then Soresu, you have to buy through Soresu technique to get to the better talents (or fo the long way round) you also cannot use the best talents in Soresu without using your Intellect, and you cant use Ataru wihtout a good Agility, so you are likely to buy talents you dont need. This makes this a better defensive  2nd lightsaber spec for an Ataru than Soresu as you dont waste xp on talents you dont need, and you dont have to boost INT to use them as well as also being better than Niman because it also has an FR in it. 

Most jedi masters , never mind Padawans didnt use a lot of force powers , Take Master Ima Gun Di from the clone wars. You could make him with Soresu Defender only although Id guess it would more likely be Peacekeeper/Soresu Defender/Protector, he was a Master. 

If you want to see the oower level of a Padawan , you should check out the Padawan arc in The Clone Wars. At that time Id guess they had 1 or 2 specializations but you would be lucky if they had bought into them much, they exhibited little to no reliable force powers.

Obiwan was old when he started his padawan training, and Ahsoka. was gifted, but the war necessitated them starting earlier as well 

Many Jedi Knights I think would even be just FR 1 and have one lightsaber tree. You dont see many force powers being used at the battle of geonisis (enhance , the odd move and thats about it)*

* to clarify im not saying a jedi knight would be FR 1 , but given what we see in the films and the clone wars , they could well be.

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by syrath

[Luahk 161]

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Well as the Devs have said the Careers in the books do not make Jedi.

I get that. The system is clearly designed for the era but don't you think that just making a super condensed tree is too much? 

[Daeglan 5,950]

The trees for jedi would likely be different. But I think the biggest thing is Jedi probably have extensive mentor discounts. Or just more starting XP at a younger level. Like 100xp at 15. or so. And a lightsaber. a normal person probably has that 100 xp at like 20.

[papy72 493]

10 hours ago, syrath said:

Many Jedi Knights I think would even be just FR 1 and have one lightsaber tree. You dont see many force powers being used at the battle of geonisis (enhance , the odd move and thats about it)*

* to clarify im not saying a jedi knight would be FR 1 , but given what we see in the films and the clone wars , they could well be.

I can see a Knight that is fresh from the trials being FR 2, but have a hard time with the concept of an FR 1 Knight.  In my mind a standard Knight with some experience should be FR 3.

At Geonosis I imagine the Jedi were using quite a few force powers.  On top of the enhance and move you mentioned, every single one of them had to be using Sense (committing those force dice) to help ward off the droids attacks, Protect to aid their allies, Battle Meditation, etc.

Edited August 24, 2017 by papy72

[syrath 1,316]

Just now, papy72 said:

I can see a Knight that is fresh from the trials being FR 2, but have a hard time with the concept of an FR 1 Knight.  In my mind a standard 

At Geonosis I imagine the Jedi were using quite a few force powers.  On top of the enhance and move you mentioned, every single one of them had to be using Sense (committing those force dice) to help ward off the droids attacks, Protect to aid their allies, Battle Meditation, etc.

I know which was why I included the part at the bottom of the post. Knights don't seem to use powers much, with people like Yoda being one of the exceptions in the film, but my point is that you can simulate what many do with an FR1 Saber master with one specialisation, and yes using that dice for sense. It seems to be only the exceptions use overt force powers regularly

[papy72 493]

Just noticed I dropped a sentence mid-thought.  Dang you work distractions! 

[Kyla 1,411]

So, this has come up before, and back then I whipped this up on request. It's been tested in my game, and it's actually fairly balanced. It's not the "end all, be all" of trees, but it's a solid representation of what a youngling to the order would be trained through, and provides a good foundation for any of the other career specializations later.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ytBajSy3DbRmowekNKbHM4NUU/view?usp=sharing

[AK_Aramis 1,002]

On 8/22/2017 at 10:49 AM, Underachiever599 said:

Ahsoka. Barriss. Obi-Wan. Kanan. Ezra. Need I go on? All of these characters had "improved reflect" as Padawans. Which is why I included the two improved talents. I see the point peopl are trying to make, but I'm feeling as though my original point was missed. This isn't a spec for players, it's a spec to build a Clone Wars-era Jedi with as little bookkeeping as necessary. 

Which means it's totally unneeded -

NPCs don't use the trees.

PC's having 2 or more specialty trees is de rigeur.

[Daeglan 5,950]

On 8/25/2017 at 10:26 AM, Kyla said:

So, this has come up before, and back then I whipped this up on request. It's been tested in my game, and it's actually fairly balanced. It's not the "end all, be all" of trees, but it's a solid representation of what a youngling to the order would be trained through, and provides a good foundation for any of the other career specializations later.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ytBajSy3DbRmowekNKbHM4NUU/view?usp=sharing

Why are the skill talents marked as force talents?

[Endersai 513]

I think there's a few things that can be done to enhance this:

1) Accept the prequels were awful

2) Accept this is a game system for characters, not flipping our magical space wizard ninjas with paper thin personalities

3) Accept Force and Destiny lets you build the new order of Force users are the Jedi Order was actually and objectively wiped out.

If your response to 3 is "But..." with arguments about the size and complexity of the galaxy, stop. The Jedi were wiped out. That's the operating basis of F&D.

If your response to 2 is "but Anakin and Obiwan are my favourites", you maybe should consider d20

If your response to #1 is, "no, the prequels are the bestest Star Wars", then you sir are a monster.

 

 

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

On 08/23/2017 at 11:14 PM, Donovan Morningfire said:

For the specific characters mentioned, Ahsoka and Obi-Wan are amongst the "superstars" of their era, being far more capable and talented than many of their immediate peers. 

I always find this a weird argument. They may be exceptional individuals, but they're the protagonists, and any game should work hard to make players feel like they're running characters like that.

 

[Kyla 1,411]

3 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Why are the skill talents marked as force talents?

Because this was put together quickly on the fly as a request and I've never gone back and prettied it up. The rules were tested, but someone asked me to give them a template of it in the format and I didn't have all the bits and bobs together. They shouldn't be force talents, just normal.

[whafrog 10,384]

6 hours ago, Endersai said:

If your response to #1 is, "no, the prequels are the bestest Star Wars", then you sir are a monster.

Better a monster than a fool...

[Daeglan 5,950]

6 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

I always find this a weird argument. They may be exceptional individuals, but they're the protagonists, and any game should work hard to make players feel like they're running characters like that.

 

It is easy to do. Run Knight level. Prequal era Jedi have more xp at a lower age.

[Eric42 10]

10 hours ago, Endersai said:

I think there's a few things that can be done to enhance this:

1) Accept the prequels were awful

If your response to #1 is, "no, the prequels are the bestest Star Wars", then you sir are a monster.

Hey, while the prequels aren't the "bestest" of the Star Wars saga, I don't consider them terrible.  They had terrible moments, but they had great moments too.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

14 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

I always find this a weird argument. They may be exceptional individuals, but they're the protagonists, and any game should work hard to make players feel like they're running characters like that.

The problem comes with players expecting they should be able to do all sorts of things automatically and with little to no effort or investment on their part, with the presumption being that because the leads in a particular work have a certain ability that their PCs should automatically have the ability as well, while generally overlooking that the characters they're looking to emulate either had truly extraordinary circumstances or have a load of experience under their belt, taking years to reach the point at which we meet them.

It's akin to expecting a 1st level D&D Fighter to instantly be on par with Conan during his time as King of Aquilonia.  Or that because Harry Potter was able to survive the Killing Curse no less than twice (a feat that required very specific circumstances that are nigh impossible to replicate) that a PC in that setting should be able to do the same "just because."  In the Buffy fandom, there was a run of "vampires with souls" well before Spike got his at the end of Season 6, when in the franchise Angel was unique in that aspect due to the gypsy curse he labored under, with some rationales far more implausible than others.  Or that a character in a Middle-Earth RPG is going start out being anywhere close to the level of competence of Aragorn (whose been on an errantry quest for over a century by the time of LotR) or Legolas (who is even older and more experienced), or even Gimli or Boromir.  Or having a wizard in the Dresdenverse starts out on par with SkinGame!Harry rather than being a lot closer to StormFront!Harry (who in the original FATE Dresden Files game actually was built as a legitimate starting-level character).

Even superhero RPGs can get thorny on this point; for instance the Justice League mainstays are all incredibly powerful characters that are well above what most superhero RPGs permit for starting PCs; having built Mutants & Masterminds 2e versions of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and The Flash, I can certify that no starting PC can be nearly as capable or powerful as those four, and that's not even getting into the madness that is Green Lantern or Martian Manhunter.  Marvel's setting is a little more forgiving due to its heroes not being nearly as powerful; for instance Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, and Jessica Jones are all viable as typical starting PCs in Mutants & Masterminds, but folks like Thor, Iron Man, The Hulk, are much trickier to accomplish on the build resources available to a starting PC; though Captain America, Black Widow, and even Spider-Man are possible if you're willing to cut some significant corners in the process.

This game in particular already makes players work hard to be able to emulate what we see the Jedi Knights of the Clone Wars era accomplish, especially as PCs that focus on a Lightsaber Form other than Niman are going to need to take at least one other specialization to get to Force Rating 2, while Niman Disciple sacrifices the option of both Improved Parry and Improved Reflect to include a Force Rating talent that's one of the most expensive in the game to reach.  If the player's wiling to put in the time and effort to grow their PC to a particular point.  But there are a number of folks like the OP that want a shortcut, a way to get to that endpoint a lot faster for a lower cost than the rules would permit while everyone elses' characters have to follow the normal rules of progression; they want to be Frodo who was handed respected status and notable treasures (an elven blade and mithral shirt) rather than Merry or Pippen who worked for and earned their respective statuses in the cultures of Rohan and Gondor respectively.

[Luahk 161]

3 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

The problem comes with players expecting they should be able to do all sorts of things automatically and with little to no effort or investment on their part, with the presumption being that because the leads in a particular work have a certain ability that their PCs should automatically have the ability as well, while generally overlooking that the characters they're looking to emulate either had truly extraordinary circumstances or have a load of experience under their belt, taking years to reach the point at which we meet them.

It's akin to expecting a 1st level D&D Fighter to instantly be on par with Conan during his time as King of Aquilonia.  Or that because Harry Potter was able to survive the Killing Curse no less than twice (a feat that required very specific circumstances that are nigh impossible to replicate) that a PC in that setting should be able to do the same "just because."  In the Buffy fandom, there was a run of "vampires with souls" well before Spike got his at the end of Season 6, when in the franchise Angel was unique in that aspect due to the gypsy curse he labored under, with some rationales far more implausible than others.  Or that a character in a Middle-Earth RPG is going start out being anywhere close to the level of competence of Aragorn (whose been on an errantry quest for over a century by the time of LotR) or Legolas (who is even older and more experienced), or even Gimli or Boromir.  Or having a wizard in the Dresdenverse starts out on par with SkinGame!Harry rather than being a lot closer to StormFront!Harry (who in the original FATE Dresden Files game actually was built as a legitimate starting-level character).

Even superhero RPGs can get thorny on this point; for instance the Justice League mainstays are all incredibly powerful characters that are well above what most superhero RPGs permit for starting PCs; having built Mutants & Masterminds 2e versions of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and The Flash, I can certify that no starting PC can be nearly as capable or powerful as those four, and that's not even getting into the madness that is Green Lantern or Martian Manhunter.  Marvel's setting is a little more forgiving due to its heroes not being nearly as powerful; for instance Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, and Jessica Jones are all viable as typical starting PCs in Mutants & Masterminds, but folks like Thor, Iron Man, The Hulk, are much trickier to accomplish on the build resources available to a starting PC; though Captain America, Black Widow, and even Spider-Man are possible if you're willing to cut some significant corners in the process.

This game in particular already makes players work hard to be able to emulate what we see the Jedi Knights of the Clone Wars era accomplish, especially as PCs that focus on a Lightsaber Form other than Niman are going to need to take at least one other specialization to get to Force Rating 2, while Niman Disciple sacrifices the option of both Improved Parry and Improved Reflect to include a Force Rating talent that's one of the most expensive in the game to reach.  If the player's wiling to put in the time and effort to grow their PC to a particular point.  But there are a number of folks like the OP that want a shortcut, a way to get to that endpoint a lot faster for a lower cost than the rules would permit while everyone elses' characters have to follow the normal rules of progression; they want to be Frodo who was handed respected status and notable treasures (an elven blade and mithral shirt) rather than Merry or Pippen who worked for and earned their respective statuses in the cultures of Rohan and Gondor respectively.

I feel this was deep for you

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

But why assume PCs have to start at low power? What value is there in that over starting where the most iconic characters from the movies start, in the movies?

There are games that let you play dude with bow and god of whatever right from the beginning, in the same party, and have it work perfectly. Why not start with that as a design goal instead of emulating DnD's zero to hero approach that is so foreign to the movies?

It just seems like a basic mistake for a star wars game.

 

[Eric42 10]

29 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

But why assume PCs have to start at low power? What value is there in that over starting where the most iconic characters from the movies start, in the movies?

There are games that let you play dude with bow and god of whatever right from the beginning, in the same party, and have it work perfectly. Why not start with that as a design goal instead of emulating DnD's zero to hero approach that is so foreign to the movies?

It just seems like a basic mistake for a star wars game.

Given that the game is set post-A New Hope, I think it's meant to represent the lack of training PCs have had, at least "official" training at the hands of an actual Jedi Knight/Master.  I've always thought that if they were to do books that took place back during the prequel era, they'd have to rebalance the game to represent the power level/training level of the characters at that point.  Though, this would only apply to FaD...

[whafrog 10,384]

2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

It just seems like a basic mistake for a star wars game.

If you want that, just grant extra XP after chargen.  Best of both worlds.