Underachiever599

Padawan Universal Tree

95 posts in this topic

This is just a dumb idea I had kicking around for a while. It's not meant to see play at the table. I don't plan on ever using it in one of my games. The idea here is to build a "Jedi Padawan" tree. Just a single tree, like Force Sensitive Exile or Force Sensitive Emergent, that can be taken by anyone for them to begin training as a Padawan instead of just someone realizing they're Force Sensitive. The goal I had in mind was to have a single tree that lets you build a base-level Clone Wars-era Jedi. If I were to ever use it at the table, I would be very explicit that this tree can only ever be purchased, and talents can only ever be purchased from it, when the player has a "Jedi Master." 

Much like with Force Sensitive Exile and Force Sensitive Emergent, if you were to buy this tree, you would automatically gain Force Rating 1, if you did not have it already.

Parry                   Uncanny Senses           Uncanny Reactions      Reflect

V                          V                                      V                                       V

Toughened        Parry                              Reflect                             Grit

V                          V                                     V                                        V

Parry      <>       Sense Emotions           Sense Danger      <>     Reflect

V                          V                                      V                                       V

Grit         <>       Defensive Training      Sense Advantage  <>  The Force Is My Ally

                             V                                     V

Force Rating <> Improved Parry            Improved Reflect   <>  Force Rating

As you can see, this tree grants 3 ranks of Parry, 3 ranks of Reflect, Improved Parry, Improved Reflect, a rank of Defensive Training, Force Rating 3, and a lot of other Jedi-like talents. Basically, any basic talent I would want to give a Jedi NPC, I put into this tree. With this tree, you could rather reasonably build a Clone Wars-era Jedi Knight with just 300 XP. Move for 10, one Strength upgrade for 10, a Range upgrade for 5, and the Hurl upgrade for 10, Influence for 10, the mind trick Control upgrade for 10, Sense for 10, Enhance for 10, and 200 XP to get both of the extra Force Ratings, which also provides Parry, Reflect, Improved Parry, and Improved Reflect. All for 275 XP, leaving 25 to play around with other talents, skills, or upgrades for Force powers. 

What do you guys think? Too ridiculous, even for a Jedi Knight NPC? Or something you would potentially let a player have access to?

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Overpowered.  Why wouldn't this be the second spec of every force and destiny character? 

 

If I was going to try my hand at this, i'd take force sensitive emergent and tweak it slightly.  Drop the stealth and indistinguishable talents gain 2 ranks parry and 2 ranks reflect, drop the 5 xp talent that grants perception and discipline as career skills, add in a well rounded.  Drop the talent in the lower left corner and add sense emotions.

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2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Overpowered.  Why wouldn't this be the second spec of every force and destiny character? 

 

If I was going to try my hand at this, i'd take force sensitive emergent and tweak it slightly.  Drop the stealth and indistinguishable talents gain 2 ranks parry and 2 ranks reflect, drop the 5 xp talent that grants perception and discipline as career skills, add in a well rounded.  Drop the talent in the lower left corner and add sense emotions.

My exact thought was "We'll that would be automatic for everyone." not that such is a bad thing but it's got enough of everything to be very very good on its own. 

The most generic tree we have is niman so far and I think that it does its job well enough. This feels better than it to me and most trees as a standalone. 

I do get the idea though. I just think people need to accept that the padawans in the clone wars era were just better trained than those in the era force and destiny intends. 

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Overpowered.  Why wouldn't this be the second spec of every force and destiny character? 

 

If I was going to try my hand at this, i'd take force sensitive emergent and tweak it slightly.  Drop the stealth and indistinguishable talents gain 2 ranks parry and 2 ranks reflect, drop the 5 xp talent that grants perception and discipline as career skills, add in a well rounded.  Drop the talent in the lower left corner and add sense emotions.

Yeah, I figured someone would say it's overpowered. That is kind of the point, after all. The goal was to build a Jedi with just a single tree. Hence why I said it's something I would never allow at my table.

Though, I am a bit curious, what exactly makes it overpowered? Soresu offers the same number of Reflect, one more Parry, Improved Reflect, Improved Parry, and Supreme Parry, in addition to a lot of other great combat talents. This one has less interesting combat talents, more utility talents, and a couple Force Rating. There are two other trees that offer 2 Force Rating, and this one is actually more expensive to get both ranks of FR than those trees (Sage and Seer).

Edited by Underachiever599

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As a general rule, Lightsaber focussed trees get only one rank (or none) of Force Rating. Also as a general rule getting to Force Rating doesn't go through good combat skills (Currently if you took the shortest route to Force Rating on EVERY tree, you'd end up with only 1 Reflect, Improved Reflect and no Parry after spending 6.5k xp. That is how rare going through defensive combat skills to get to Force Rating is.

As you point out, Soresu is great defensively, but offers 0 Force Rating. 2 Force Rating specialisations have few if any combat skills.

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6 hours ago, Underachiever599 said:

Yeah, I figured someone would say it's overpowered. That is kind of the point, after all. The goal was to build a Jedi with just a single tree. Hence why I said it's something I would never allow at my table.

Though, I am a bit curious, what exactly makes it overpowered? Soresu offers the same number of Reflect, one more Parry, Improved Reflect, Improved Parry, and Supreme Parry, in addition to a lot of other great combat talents. This one has less interesting combat talents, more utility talents, and a couple Force Rating. There are two other trees that offer 2 Force Rating, and this one is actually more expensive to get both ranks of FR than those trees (Sage and Seer).

 

4 hours ago, Darzil said:

As a general rule, Lightsaber focussed trees get only one rank (or none) of Force Rating. Also as a general rule getting to Force Rating doesn't go through good combat skills (Currently if you took the shortest route to Force Rating on EVERY tree, you'd end up with only 1 Reflect, Improved Reflect and no Parry after spending 6.5k xp. That is how rare going through defensive combat skills to get to Force Rating is.

As you point out, Soresu is great defensively, but offers 0 Force Rating. 2 Force Rating specialisations have few if any combat skills.

What he said, and "the force is my ally" tagging along with it

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7 hours ago, Underachiever599 said:

Soresu offers the same number of Reflect, one more Parry, Improved Reflect, Improved Parry, and Supreme Parry

To me it's the Improved versions.  It's a Padawan tree, it shouldn't come with Improved-anything, that's what the other specs are for.

Everyone has their take on how much XP is needed for a Padawan/Knight/Master.  As a rough guide, I'd say a Youngling has started a tree, a Padawan has completed a tree, a Knight has completed (or almost completed) 2 trees, and a Master has 3.

7 hours ago, Underachiever599 said:

The goal was to build a Jedi with just a single tree.

I don't think it's possible.  A Jedi isn't all about combat, it's about knowledge and diplomacy as well.  So having the Improved talents takes away from other useful and Jedi-like talents, such as Conditioning, Confidence, Researcher, Well Rounded, etc.

I did come up with a Padawan tree a while back, if you're interested PM me.

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Posted (edited)

On 8/22/2017 at 2:16 AM, Luahk said:

My exact thought was "We'll that would be automatic for everyone." not that such is a bad thing but it's got enough of everything to be very very good on its own. 

Yeah, in terms of game balance, if every character build would always include a certain specialization then that spec is probably OP.

Edited by papy72

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1 hour ago, whafrog said:

I did come up with a Padawan tree a while back...

BTW, just to flesh out my thoughts on this as they've evolved...a couple years ago I did post a Padawan tree on these boards.  However, as my campaign wasn't really focussed on that it never got exercised.  In my new campaign my son plays a Padawan 800 years BBY, but one that is close enough to knighthood that he can be independent (say, Anakin on his first solo mission with Padme).  Just MHO but this is a critical starting point for a Jedi PC because the last thing you want is a Jedi Master NPC helicopter-parenting every scene.

I had originally thought to resurrect the Padawan tree, but in the end it was easier and more flavourful to just do an XP dump.  He picked a Sentinel:Shadow, and I gave the Investigator, and Shien Expert for free.  Then I gave him all the first row talents in all three specs and made sure he had one rank of Reflect, one skill rank in each career skill, granted basic Move, Enhance, and Sense.  Finally I gave him something like 150XP to spend as he wished, with the restriction that he remain FR1, take a max of one 4th-row talent, and have no more than 2 ranks in any skill.

The result is a competent independent Padawan that doesn't feel overpowered for the level of capability they're supposed to represent.

He's running solo in the game, but if I had a party to deal with, including non-Force users, I'd do the same, whether the PC wants a Bounty Hunter or a Scoundrel or whatever.

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7 minutes ago, whafrog said:

BTW, just to flesh out my thoughts on this as they've evolved...a couple years ago I did post a Padawan tree on these boards.  However, as my campaign wasn't really focussed on that it never got exercised.  In my new campaign my son plays a Padawan 800 years BBY, but one that is close enough to knighthood that he can be independent (say, Anakin on his first solo mission with Padme).  Just MHO but this is a critical starting point for a Jedi PC because the last thing you want is a Jedi Master NPC helicopter-parenting every scene.

I had originally thought to resurrect the Padawan tree, but in the end it was easier and more flavourful to just do an XP dump.  He picked a Sentinel:Shadow, and I gave the Investigator, and Shien Expert for free.  Then I gave him all the first row talents in all three specs and made sure he had one rank of Reflect, one skill rank in each career skill, granted basic Move, Enhance, and Sense.  Finally I gave him something like 150XP to spend as he wished, with the restriction that he remain FR1, take a max of one 4th-row talent, and have no more than 2 ranks in any skill.

The result is a competent independent Padawan that doesn't feel overpowered for the level of capability they're supposed to represent.

He's running solo in the game, but if I had a party to deal with, including non-Force users, I'd do the same, whether the PC wants a Bounty Hunter or a Scoundrel or whatever.

This actually brings up a point that I tackled in a game, the Master NPC/Mentor.   Personally I didn't find it to be that difficult to deal with, until the inevitable death of the Master/Mentor.    I had the Master simply busy doing other stuff off camera, while the Padawan was dealing with the actual issues of the story.    To use Phantom Menace, you could easily switch Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan around, and have the Master sit in the ship, monitoring republic messages while the Padawan is sent into town on the "shopping trip."    

I've mentioned this before, so I apologize for repeating it, but I basically just couched the situation as something very minor, that is well within the capabilities of the Padawan, but ends up being slightly more risky than originally intended.    For the first few sessions, with one that is close to solo work like Obi-Wan was in Phantom Menace, just have the NPC be redirected.  He has to handle some kind of diplomatic incident, that will entail hours of boring talking about tedious trade details, and the PC is left to just "take an afternoon off, see the sights."  etc.  And while they are out sight-seeing, have something happen that they can handle.   

There are tons of examples of this to pull from.    Any time young Asohka went off to handle something so she didn't have to bother Anakin or Obi-Wan.  "I can handle this!  They are too busy to be bothered by something this minor!"  Then she finds herself dealing with a local crime syndicate or something.  Or that one episode where she is tasked with protecting...I think it was Padme?  Some politician, and for whatever reason, she was the only one around to deal with it.   

Stuff like that works really well in my opinion.   Have them separate while things are still perfectly normal, then have events escalate, and there is no time to inform the Master/Mentor NPC.    

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53 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Have them separate while things are still perfectly normal, then have events escalate, and there is no time to inform the Master/Mentor NPC.    

That certainly works too, good ideas.  The difference with mine is the overt "you're independent on this one" mission granting from the Master.  It's a long-running murder mystery, with some adult tones and themes, and the PC is the investigative lead.  In the end the whole campaign will represent his "great trial".

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3 hours ago, whafrog said:

To me it's the Improved versions.  It's a Padawan tree, it shouldn't come with Improved-anything, that's what the other specs are for.

Ahsoka. Barriss. Obi-Wan. Kanan. Ezra. Need I go on? All of these characters had "improved reflect" as Padawans. Which is why I included the two improved talents. I see the point peopl are trying to make, but I'm feeling as though my original point was missed. This isn't a spec for players, it's a spec to build a Clone Wars-era Jedi with as little bookkeeping as necessary. 

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15 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

Ahsoka. Barriss. Obi-Wan. Kanan. Ezra. Need I go on? All of these characters had "improved reflect" as Padawans. Which is why I included the two improved talents. I see the point peopl are trying to make, but I'm feeling as though my original point was missed. This isn't a spec for players, it's a spec to build a Clone Wars-era Jedi with as little bookkeeping as necessary. 

I think the disparity we are having (or at least me personally), is you calling it a Padawan tree, but giving it a total of 2 Force Rating boosts.  Which is way beyond a Padawan's level of utility of the Force.  There are only 2 F&D trees that give you access to that much Force Rating in a single tree, and they are distinctly NOT combat classes as well.   They are predominantly mental/intellectual classes, to reflect the idea of this being a Force user who doesn't focus on the martial side of the Force, but on the mental/spiritual side.     This is to keep it balanced, so you don't have a single spec tree that does both:

Make them a powerful combat monkey, that much defensive ability is pretty powerful in negating incoming damage turn after turn.

and

Make them a Force powerhouse.

With the Uncanny Senses/Reactions, you are almost guaranteeing they go first nearly every encounter, are likely to have more than enough Force pips to use their Force powers to devastating effect, and be likely to shrug off most, if not all of any damage that makes it way to them.

That's not a Padawan, that's an incredibly powerful Force user concept.

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Yes, this is an OP NPC tree. It is also kinda useless, since Adversary is easier to use and possibly more effective.

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29 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

I think the disparity we are having (or at least me personally), is you calling it a Padawan tree, but giving it a total of 2 Force Rating boosts.  Which is way beyond a Padawan's level of utility of the Force.  There are only 2 F&D trees that give you access to that much Force Rating in a single tree, and they are distinctly NOT combat classes as well.   They are predominantly mental/intellectual classes, to reflect the idea of this being a Force user who doesn't focus on the martial side of the Force, but on the mental/spiritual side.     This is to keep it balanced, so you don't have a single spec tree that does both:

Make them a powerful combat monkey, that much defensive ability is pretty powerful in negating incoming damage turn after turn.

and

Make them a Force powerhouse.

With the Uncanny Senses/Reactions, you are almost guaranteeing they go first nearly every encounter, are likely to have more than enough Force pips to use their Force powers to devastating effect, and be likely to shrug off most, if not all of any damage that makes it way to them.

That's not a Padawan, that's an incredibly powerful Force user concept.

That's where we'll have to agree to disagree. Actual Jedi Padawans have been portrayed well above the power level of an ordinary player character in this game, and that's what this spec was simulating. Again, look at the list of characters I provided, and tell me they don't have skills comparable, if not better, than this spec provides.

Padawans in Star Wars are still a force to be reckoned with. FR2-3 is perfectly reasonable for a Force User who has trained literally their whole life. Parry and Reflect 3, with the Improved version of both talents match what we see Padawans are capable of in canon. 

From what I'm seeing from people's replies, it feels as if people are picturing Padawans as newly-accepted Younglings with little-to-no training. But that's simply not the case. Padawans typically train in the Jedi arts for a decade before even becomimg a Padawan, and then keep that title for the better part of a decade after being accepted by a master.

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1 minute ago, burninghoff said:

Yes, this is an OP NPC tree. It is also kinda useless, since Adversary is easier to use and possibly more effective.

Adversary is great and all, but I wanted the Jedi NPCs to have more than just "I upgrade difficulty to hit me."

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9 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

Adversary is great and all, but I wanted the Jedi NPCs to have more than just "I upgrade difficulty to hit me."

So add the Talent(s) you want, add Adversary, and narrate.

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9 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

That's where we'll have to agree to disagree. Actual Jedi Padawans have been portrayed well above the power level of an ordinary player character in this game, and that's what this spec was simulating. Again, look at the list of characters I provided, and tell me they don't have skills comparable, if not better, than this spec provides.

Padawans in Star Wars are still a force to be reckoned with. FR2-3 is perfectly reasonable for a Force User who has trained literally their whole life. Parry and Reflect 3, with the Improved version of both talents match what we see Padawans are capable of in canon. 

From what I'm seeing from people's replies, it feels as if people are picturing Padawans as newly-accepted Younglings with little-to-no training. But that's simply not the case. Padawans typically train in the Jedi arts for a decade before even becomimg a Padawan, and then keep that title for the better part of a decade after being accepted by a master.

If you're not going to agree with any criticisms of your tree, then I don't really see why you even bothered to post the thread wanting feedback anyway.  You're clearly just going to do your own thing anyway, why ask for feedback?  

Whatever, use your tree, it's not my table so I really don't care one way or the other.

And about the Padawan thing, yes that title does cover decades of training, which does include them as a child, see Anakin in Phantom Menace.  So my question then is how quickly are you going to let them travel through this tree?  If this was being taken by a player who wanted to actually progress, they would likely get enough experience to buy out this insane tree in a matter of in game months at most, given the average XP rewards most GM's provide.  How does that reflect decades of training to no longer be a Padawan, and become a Knight, if they can just plow through a single tree, in a matter of months?  That's hardly reflective of the length and dedication they have to show to attain the title of Knight.   1 Tree does not make a Knight, or even a Padawan,   And 1 tree with FR 3, tons of reflect and reactionary talents, doesn't take one from Day 1 Youngling to the level of skill that the Padawan's that are about to graduate to Knight either.  It's more involved than that.

 

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49 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

Adversary is great and all, but I wanted the Jedi NPCs to have more than just "I upgrade difficulty to hit me."

In that case just review the Inquisitor rules and adjust accordingly.  If you aren't going to use it for PCs, why have a tree at all?  It would be easier to just grant the talents you want and be done.

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If you want a padawan tree, why not base it off the Recruit tree?  Lots of Grit, Toughened, lots of career skills, give it a FR instead of dedication, 3-4 force talents, and round it out with some "Jedi" non-force talents.

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I am going to point out that most likely Obiwan, Bariss, Ahsoka likely have multiple trees. One of the design pholosophies FFG uses is there is not a one stop shop for everything a player wants. If they want lots of capability they need to hit multiple trees. So as to balance things. The Reason they all have improved reflect is because likely all jedi dip into multiple lightsaber trees in their youth. Settling on a style and then focusing on it. One of those dips is likely to be shien. I could also see using the Mentor rules to make popping into other trees cheaper. At leas at the hieght of the jedi.

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13 hours ago, Edgookin said:

If you want a padawan tree, why not base it off the Recruit tree?  Lots of Grit, Toughened, lots of career skills, give it a FR instead of dedication, 3-4 force talents, and round it out with some "Jedi" non-force talents.

I thought about something like this too, but then I looked at the Force-Sensitive Emergent spec, and it looks an awful lot like a force-user version of Recruit.

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The biggest issue I have with the Padawan tree as presented is that it's too combat focused.  Being a Padawan isn't just about combat.  The Jedi Order isn't all about churning out lightsaber wielding death machines.  Yes, their role as protectors often necessitates the use of lightsabers, but Jedi are just as well known for other roles (negotiator being a good example).

To me, a Padawan tree should be much more broad in nature.  It should be just as desirable to the Gurdian or Warrior as it would be the Mystic or Consular.

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