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Marinealver

Is the Reload Action a bit lazy?

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So reload action as the final fix for discarding attacks. Simple you take a weapons disabled tokens and then you can fire again the next turn. 

So there are something to like about it and some things to not like about it. It brings up tempo as a more important part in the game. Now what is tempo, best way I can describe it is like Corran Horn. Corran Horn can make a double attack in a turn at the expense of not having an attack in the next turn. Now in a way it is more of a reverse as Corran has a little more flexibility in attacks, but reload has you front load the attack in preparation. When you can make super attack but only once every other turn it brings tempo that much more into the game getting the rhythm or (on the other side) breaking that rhythm.

Now there is plenty to not like about it, first of all the ships that need it the most (TIE Bomber, TIE Punisher, B-wing) are left out in the cold as this is clearly a case of mechanics creep. It also outclasses earlier attempts to fix discarding attacks while some were failures all together (munitions failsafe) others were reasonably good (extra munitions) and will still be on their ships but will eventually fall out thanks to accretion.  

So I am not sure what to make of it. Taking a look at Sunny's ability and now that might as well be a blank text as this comes up makes me wonder in what state of mind are the devs in. It almost seems like there are two different dev teams and they are not talking to each other or not planned out so things are literally coming right off the fly due to the popularity and demand of X-wing miniatures. Granted that the X-wing wave system demands not only new ships but new mechanics and the popularity of the game demands that waves and releases come more frequently. It is telling that the devs are at their limit trying to keep up. Ideas like this appear to be rushed.

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Just now, Jadotch said:

It looks like Chopper will allow a reload action at this point. So it will be available to anything with an Astromech slot.

So just like what I said, TIE Bombers, TIE Punishers and B-wings the 3 ships that need it the most and makes thematic sense to have are out of luck.

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I think it's a great way to make longer-term action management and strategy an important part of the game. And it makes the gunship fill a unique role.

I still hope for something that makes the TIE Bombers actual bombers, eventually, but I'm really looking forward to something unique and interesting for the Imperial faction. Yes, of course Scum get it as well, but my feelings from what's spoiled so far are that the Gunboat will probably make much better use of it.

Mechanism creep ... certainly. Probably power creep, too, probably. But I don't think it's lazy. Rather, I think it's pretty elegant.

Edited by haslo

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Dont worry, as with the other actions eventually something will come out for 2-4pts in the mod slot to allow it.
Which would be counter productive on the ordnance carriers. At this point the punisher already needs to be allowed 2-3 mods to function (unless its just deathfire having fun with bombletts he's fine)

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4 minutes ago, Warlon said:

That's what I'm thinking. Maybe a torpedo upgrade that adds the action? Or a modification to just cover all bases.

I think the torpedo upgrade is the better choice, because it makes it hit all the ships it's targeted at, and makes it an easy replacement for Extra Munitions.

Modification would suck unless it also gave you an additional Modification slot, because a lot of those ships need their GChips or LWFs.

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1 hour ago, DarthEnderX said:

They could always add Reload to older ships later with some kind of upgrade card.

Or just errata the punisher to have reload on its action bar. Simple, it still wouldn't be a great ship with the ability to reload, no need to make it burn an upgrade slot, unless it's a zero point torp upgrade which helps all 3 ships mentioned.

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2 minutes ago, benskywalker said:

Or just errata the punisher to have reload on its action bar. Simple, it still wouldn't be a great ship with the ability to reload, no need to make it burn an upgrade slot, unless it's a zero point torp upgrade which helps all 3 ships mentioned.

Adding reload to the punisher still just makes it a dinstinctly worse gunboat

A distinctly worse anything-else-that-can-reload, for that matter

Edited by ficklegreendice

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7 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Adding reload to the punisher still just makes it a dinstinctly worse gunboat

A distinctly worse anything-else-that-can-reload, for that matter

I agree. However, reload, the ability to add 3 mods, and a reinforce action and things start to get interesting. I would love to see complaints on the forum about how the Punisher is op. Plus then I could be the hipster that had 5 before they were good.

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1 hour ago, DarthEnderX said:

They could always add Reload to older ships later with some kind of upgrade card.

 

1 hour ago, Warlon said:

That's what I'm thinking. Maybe a torpedo upgrade that adds the action? Or a modification to just cover all bases.

 

1 hour ago, DarthEnderX said:

I think the torpedo upgrade is the better choice, because it makes it hit all the ships it's targeted at, and makes it an easy replacement for Extra Munitions.

Modification would suck unless it also gave you an additional Modification slot, because a lot of those ships need their GChips or LWFs.

Well we already have Extra Munitions as the torpedo upgrade. I think that is good enough. I could see it as a missile upgrade because then it hits almost the same ships but skipping Jumpmasters. However there is also the B-wing issue. But B-wigns was mostly cannons and weapons array it wasn't a munitions specific delivery system like hte TIE Bomber although it was capable in that role.

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Yeah. a title for TIE Bombers and Punishers that gave the Reload action would be cool.

Maybe even give it free reload actions.

TIE Ordinance Pods: 1 point: Title: TIE Bomber and TIE Punisher only: Your upgrade bar gains the Reload action. Immediately after you perform an attack with a secondary weapon, you may perform a free Reload action. Then receive 1 stress token.

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I honestly don't think Reload would be that great on Punishers.

I've played a fair bit with Redline with Extra Muntions, Cluster Missiles, and Proton Torpedoes, and the issue was seldom that I ran out of ordnance.  The issue was that I died, and I doubt I'd have had turns to spare to take Reload actions.  It would probably be the same with a Bomber, too.

With the Star Wing, the big benefit of Reload is the point cost savings relative to Extra Munitions, but if you're loading on also Cannons and maybe Advanced Slam, that goes away.  However, the fact that you'll really be able to slam out of the fight first probably goes a long way.  I really don't think it'd help Punishers muc..  If I could see any recycled benefit given to a Punisher, I'd love the IG-88-C ability.  "When you perform a Boost, you may perform a free Evade action."  That'd add a lot to survival and positioning, without benefiting ordnance attacks directly.

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A small point: Munitions don't need Reload as a mechanical fix any more; Reload is an ordnance boat fix. Extra Munitions + Guidance Chips generally works just fine, it's just struggling at action economy (which is what I'd predicted all along when they added 'yet another modifier' instead of simply allowing one of the existing ones to count, but nevermind that) on a lot of the platforms that would otherwise happily take a torpedo or something.

That said, the Punisher needs a lot more than just a Reload action, it's the hull itself that has problems.

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5 hours ago, Marinealver said:

So just like what I said, TIE Bombers, TIE Punishers and B-wings the 3 ships that need it the most and makes thematic sense to have are out of luck.

those all have either multiple torpedo slots or torpedo+missile, or both.. which means they can take Extra munitions.

with extra munitions, you can just keep firing ordnance so long as you can get target locks. a constant stream of them in some cases where you have 2 ordnance slots after extra munitions.

with Reload, you have to stop attacking for a turn to reload. and on the turn you reload, you can't target lock unless you have sunk points into upgrading for a multi-action build. (which usually means you can't load up with all the stuff to make your ordnance more effective.) so you are shooting only half as often.. you just have the potential to make each of those attack a bit punchier.

they are different approaches and allow for different play styles. a constant stream of limited ordnance verses an ordnance shot every other turn for as long as the game goes.

 

honestly i'll be interested to see how an astromech based reload and Extra munitions might interact, such as with the Y-wing. i'm assuming that you couldn't use reload to stack extra tokens using the extra munitions card.. but being able to fire off 2 Torps in a row then switch to one every other turn could be interesting.

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Think a lot of folks looking for wider use of the 'reload' action are just forgetting how it was used in the old LucasArts games!

I mean, certainly for myself, I only really remember it being critical on the Assault Gunboat - or maybe a TIE Bomber mission or two.

(So my only actual regret about seeing it, here, is that it doesn't require a DX 9 transport nearby to perform it...)

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18 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Not really well enough to matter

Punisher's single greatest failing is its rock stupid cost relative to its wet tissue durability 

 

It has one more health than a Y wing, and one less than a Scurrg. I don't think the problem is durability at all, seeing as no-one calls either of those two ships a wet tissue. The only problem is the price, which quickly exceeds that of a Y wing, and doesn't have the crucial turret upgrade of the scurrg. 

A cheap reload modification that let you add an additional mod one point or under would let you keep your long range scanners or guidance chips. I think it would have to be priced at 0-1 points because you still have to pay for the ordnance, and it takes a turn to reload. At 0 points, it would be a valid alternative to extra munitions because it would save you 2 points, but as the OP said, it would require a different rhythm to play. 

I would be willing to pay more points for something that added to the reload action, something like this:

Automated Reloading System: 1-2 points - After executing a maneuver, you may perform a free reload action.

It is the same price as extra munitions, but it doesn't work if you get blocked or are stressed. 

Do I think the idea of a reload action is lazy? No, not really. I think it finally matches the fluff behind all of the ships, because by lore, every ship with ordnance can carry much more than is represented in this game. I will be disappointed if reload can't be taken by more ships though. It is an interesting mechanic that lends itself to a different style of play, which makes me more excited about writing lists and strategizing about how to fly them. If reload is limited in the same way that mobile firing arcs has been, it will be a wasted opportunity to add an interesting dynamic to the game. Maybe it is just experimentation for X Wing 2.0?

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X health, 1 agi is NOT durable at all regardless of what anyone says

without guaranteed defenses ala c3po, evade, reinforce, regen; etc. any 8-10 health 1 agi ship can be pretty easily destroyed in two rounds by most lists (or in 1 by basically any alpha strike given the red dice creep of wave 8)

Nym only gets away with it because he's PS 10 and incredibly squirrelly (moreso than even deathrain due to combination of ignoring his own bombs or withholding his own bombs and genius). But when you shoot him, he folds fast .

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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