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Duke2000

1st Place North American Championship (Gencon) battle report

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I walked by a few of the tables during the tournament.  It was fun seeing all the armies.  I noticed waaaay more Oathsworn than anything else, but I didn't look at every single army.  If I wasn't working the show, I would have participated.

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38 minutes ago, DekoPuma said:

I'm getting the impression that units of 6x Oathsworn are incredibly good.

And I'm willing to bet that 6x of Reanimate Archers with Close Quarters Targeting is very powerful, but Waiqar players are all depending on blight still. Which is definitely good, and wins games, but I feel like Archers fold when the Cavalry come in, and being able to range attack when cavalry engage, especially with so many Oathsworn running about, will make a huge difference. And being able to blight even when you're engaged is a nice bonus. (That's just my two cents on the 'meta' as it's developing...I need more Reanimate Archers.)

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8 hours ago, Parakitor said:

And I'm willing to bet that 6x of Reanimate Archers with Close Quarters Targeting is very powerful, but Waiqar players are all depending on blight still. Which is definitely good, and wins games, but I feel like Archers fold when the Cavalry come in, and being able to range attack when cavalry engage, especially with so many Oathsworn running about, will make a huge difference. And being able to blight even when you're engaged is a nice bonus. (That's just my two cents on the 'meta' as it's developing...I need more Reanimate Archers.)

Yeah I keep seeing cavalry dominating.  I wonder what the best counter to them is?  Is it waiting for Death Knights?  Is it the 6x tray Carrion Lancer unit? (That thing is deadly).  What about the blighted vexillum bearer?  It seems throwing down a guaranteed blight on their initial charge that they can't remove before attacking would be useful.  

Close combat encounters for bigger units of archers makes sense, you don't want them to be locked out of the fight.  Combat Ingenuity would be useful for many small units of archers.  
 

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10 minutes ago, Glucose98 said:

Yeah I keep seeing cavalry dominating.  I wonder what the best counter to them is?  Is it waiting for Death Knights?  Is it the 6x tray Carrion Lancer unit? (That thing is deadly).  What about the blighted vexillum bearer?  It seems throwing down a guaranteed blight on their initial charge that they can't remove before attacking would be useful.  

Close combat encounters for bigger units of archers makes sense, you don't want them to be locked out of the fight.  Combat Ingenuity would be useful for many small units of archers.  
 

Cav's weakness (in my opinion) are blockers and archers.  If cav gets blocked and flanked, they get damaged to oblivion pretty quickly.  Archers whittle them down on the approach, making them much easier to deal with.  And of course blight to neuter their charge attack.

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2 hours ago, Duke2000 said:

Cav's weakness (in my opinion) are blockers and archers.  If cav gets blocked and flanked, they get damaged to oblivion pretty quickly.  Archers whittle them down on the approach, making them much easier to deal with.  And of course blight to neuter their charge attack.

@Duke2000  Given this -- was there a list match-up you feared?

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22 hours ago, Duke2000 said:

You know... my wife is reading this and she doesn't need to know how much I spend on Runewars!:P

Thanks! and thanks to everyone else for the kind words!

From what I've heard, the tournament was pretty well split 50/50 for humans vs undead.  I think I just got lucky (or unlucky) to have all human opponents.

Yeah Curly! His wife doesn't need to know! That's why I use my yoga checks only on Runewars cause it doesn't come out of our bank account lol. 

That's really cool that the tourney was pretty well split. Was is split as far as wins go too? Roughly equal between sides or did you notice?

Thanks for the write up, btw and congrats! Sounds like some solid strategery. Hopefully we'll see you at the next Gencon! I plan on bringing some Latari Elves if we can make it.

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22 hours ago, Duke2000 said:

From what I've heard, the tournament was pretty well split 50/50 for humans vs undead.  I think I just got lucky (or unlucky) to have all human opponents.

Personally I've had problems fighting the Daqan, while my army can come back pretty well (Waiqar), they attack and move so much earlier I've had trouble not getting killed before them. Their ability to attack early is insane. Attacking turns 3-4 is tough to go against. I've learned recently the Latari is similar in that they can move so quickly. I had Ankaur Maro in a reanimates unit and they had no options before turn 4 so Aliana charged turn 3 (I think turn two because he had the blue - 1 card) and finished maro before he could bring back more trays.

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17 minutes ago, Curlycross said:

Personally I've had problems fighting the Daqan, while my army can come back pretty well (Waiqar), they attack and move so much earlier I've had trouble not getting killed before them. Their ability to attack early is insane. Attacking turns 3-4 is tough to go against. I've learned recently the Latari is similar in that they can move so quickly. I had Ankaur Maro in a reanimates unit and they had no options before turn 4 so Aliana charged turn 3 (I think turn two because he had the blue - 1 card) and finished maro before he could bring back more trays.

That's just because you fight your roommate's Daqan, and he is some sort of wargaming savant. I want to take him to Gencon Next year and be his hype-man. \

You should fight Donnie's Daqan. But he also told me he's going full Latari, so you know... classic Donnie.

Also I saved up that ambush predator and almost wiped that unit in one turn, if I had rolled one more hit it would have been curtains for that entire 2x2. Quick attacks are super nice, but I think as the undead you have to be really good at knowing what your opponent will do or get those upgrade cards that let you counter attack before the opponent does. Or stack enough blight on the enemy to cancel their modifiers and get those auto wounds with Ankaur and the Squirmies.

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10 minutes ago, Wraithist said:

That's just because you fight your roommate's Daqan, and he is some sort of wargaming savant. I want to take him to Gencon Next year and be his hype-man. \

You should fight Donnie's Daqan. But he also told me he's going full Latari, so you know... classic Donnie.

Also I saved up that ambush predator and almost wiped that unit in one turn, if I had rolled one more hit it would have been curtains for that entire 2x2. Quick attacks are super nice, but I think as the undead you have to be really good at knowing what your opponent will do or get those upgrade cards that let you counter attack before the opponent does. Or stack enough blight on the enemy to cancel their modifiers and get those auto wounds with Ankaur and the Squirmies.

Aah Wraithist, you must be that loser Luke that was cheating with the Moment of Inspiration on Sunday. :P

8 hours ago, Duke2000 said:

Cav's weakness (in my opinion) are blockers and archers.  If cav gets blocked and flanked, they get damaged to oblivion pretty quickly.  Archers whittle them down on the approach, making them much easier to deal with.  And of course blight to neuter their charge attack.

Maybe @Wraithist and I will see you next year at Gencon.

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On August 22, 2017 at 7:08 AM, Glucose98 said:

Yeah I keep seeing cavalry dominating.  I wonder what the best counter to them is?  Is it waiting for Death Knights?  Is it the 6x tray Carrion Lancer unit? (That thing is deadly).  What about the blighted vexillum bearer?  It seems throwing down a guaranteed blight on their initial charge that they can't remove before attacking would be useful.  

Close combat encounters for bigger units of archers makes sense, you don't want them to be locked out of the fight.  Combat Ingenuity would be useful for many small units of archers.  
 

Death Knights are definitely going to put a dent in Daqan Cav lists.

I think the best game plan for archers though is to use terrain and Lancers to block for them and then just shoot into combat. Lancers can hold out stupidly long, even individual ones.

To the guys concerned about the price tag of the Oathsworn list, I wouldn't worry about that too hard because the meta is going to change dramatically the second Death Knights are out. So the real cost of that Daqan army is $225+ whatever else you're going to need to buy next month to counter Death Knights.

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12 hours ago, Elliphino said:

Death Knights are definitely going to put a dent in Daqan Cav lists.

I think the best game plan for archers though is to use terrain and Lancers to block for them and then just shoot into combat. Lancers can hold out stupidly long, even individual ones.

To the guys concerned about the price tag of the Oathsworn list, I wouldn't worry about that too hard because the meta is going to change dramatically the second Death Knights are out. So the real cost of that Daqan army is $225+ whatever else you're going to need to buy next month to counter Death Knights.

I feel bad because I'd go "You counter Death Knights with Crossbowmen!"

 

And then the Death Knights can auto-stop a mortal strike....

 

Just like "Rune golems are super tanky, low wound guys! Awesome!"

*Waiqar has easy access to mortal strikes*

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29 minutes ago, Waywardpaladin said:

I feel bad because I'd go "You counter Death Knights with Crossbowmen!"

 

And then the Death Knights can auto-stop a mortal strike....

 

Just like "Rune golems are super tanky, low wound guys! Awesome!"

*Waiqar has easy access to mortal strikes*

Yeah, Crossbowmen's access to mortal strikes is interesting, but I think they're better off just focusing on maximizing hits at threat 3. With Tempered Steel and Rank Discipline they're semi-reliably putting out 9 damage, which is just beautiful. Rune Golems may not have a CHANCE of going toe to toe with Death Knights, but they can stall them reasonably well (though the Reaping Blade is pretty nasty with those two red dice)

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And.... crossbow heavy lists would be a move away from all-cav Daqan lists, which is my point. I'm not arguing that there are no counters for Death Knights, just that Daqan armies will need something besides Oathsworn to deal with them.

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On 8/21/2017 at 10:01 AM, Duke2000 said:

Day 2-- Final 4

Game 4: Nathaniel and the glass cannons.  Nathaniel was also running dual cav but his were 4-wide using Hawthorne's ability.  He also had a deathstar to worry about.  For this game, we played Supply Raid with Hammer and Anvil deployment.  After setting out the Supply Raid tokens, I pretty much decided to ignore those because if I went after them, it would spread me out too much.  My thought was to let him pick up the tokens and just go for the kill.  In setting up terrain, I created a small area that a 3-wide tray unit could barely fit through hoping he might put his deathstar there so I could block and flank.  But he put it in the corner with 1 unit of cav and Hawthorne.  The other unit of cav was on the complete other side of the board set up to flank.  I chose to ignore that flank completely and just run down the middle with my flanker (in that 3-wide thread the needle area).  My other units were set up pretty much across from his.  I set my Rune Golems so they would be impacted on his cav charging so I could charge back with my cav.  Instead of that happening, Nathaniel sent in Hawthorne to block my cav and attempted to turn charge my golems with his 4-wide cav.  I saw the Hawthorne charge coming and keyed up a 7 initiative attack on my cav that nearly killed Hawthorne.  His turning charge from his cav impacted his own Hawthorne so that was a miss.  Next turn my Golems charged his cav to block while my own cav took out his Hawthorne.  After a couple turns of doing the unexpected, Nathaniel was on to my tricks and read me like a book and knew I would move my cav in to engage his deathstar.  He pretty much punked them leaving a single tray of knights to fight back.  I took a mental blow but it was ok since reinforcements were now on the way.  My flanker cav made it to the fight as their brothers died but got the flank and started working on his deathstar.  By round 6, Nathaniel decided to call it and gave me the win.  Thanks for a great game!

 

 

Thanks For the Game.  I loved playing those two days and I have to admit, you straight up out played me.  I feel that our game allowed me to learn so much during the event that hopefully I will be fully prepared to face you next time we meet up at an event.  I hope to be able to make it out to Gencon Next year, or if I am lucky I maybe able to make it to worlds.  Congrats on your win, You Earned it.

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Any idea what unit sizes and upgrades were in the Waiqar list?
I wonder if he relied on Blight (which after games played so far seems to be a trap) or went for just pure ranged damage while the Reanimates stalled other units in melee.

Combat Ingenuity Archers seemed cool at first, but Blighting after the opportunity to spend Inspiration is the way to go. Blighted Vexillum Bearer, Support lancers + Deathcaller and Simult Orders, that sort of thing. 

Edited by Polda

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I was the Waiqar player in the finals. @Duke2000 Thanks for the great finals game.

My list was:
2x2 Reanimate Archer with Combat Ingenuity x2
1x1 Carrion Lancer x3
3x3 Reanimate with Ardus, Blighted Vexillum Banner, Lingering Dead

The plan behind the list was to use the Archers to neutralize 2 threats with blight and pick things off at range while the Reanimates chewed through units using Ardus' surge sharing. The worms provided blocking for the archers and could utilize the blight to Mortal Strike units.

It was working well, until the round where he moved his cavalry to the edge of the board. It was something I hadn't expected and opened up my archer lines to his Rune Golems. The cavalry turned around and flanked the worms to death. This had the unfortunate side effect of also giving him objective tokens. My goal had been to charge the cavalry with the worms and stop them outside my deployment zone. But the unexpected action put them way out of position.

I disagree that blighting is a trap. It has been the only way I have been able to be successful as Waiqar against Daqan, to keep the number of dice they roll in check. I found the Support Lancer and Deathcaller trick to only really work against high armor targets, and once its realized what you are doing, your opponent won't give you a target to hit, other than the blocks of spearmen, which that effect really won't faze. Without blight, cavalry units at 3x2 or the spearmen deathstar just annihilate rank after rank of reanimates without slowing down. The only other unit I have had able to go toe-to-toe was the 3x2 carrion lancer, if you have a blight battery ready to turn on their mortal strikes.

 

Thanks to all my opponents for great games, and thanks to all who showed up.

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2 hours ago, schizoscifi said:

I was the Waiqar player in the finals. @Duke2000 Thanks for the great finals game.

My list was:
2x2 Reanimate Archer with Combat Ingenuity x2
1x1 Carrion Lancer x3
3x3 Reanimate with Ardus, Blighted Vexillum Banner, Lingering Dead

The plan behind the list was to use the Archers to neutralize 2 threats with blight and pick things off at range while the Reanimates chewed through units using Ardus' surge sharing. The worms provided blocking for the archers and could utilize the blight to Mortal Strike units.

It was working well, until the round where he moved his cavalry to the edge of the board. It was something I hadn't expected and opened up my archer lines to his Rune Golems. The cavalry turned around and flanked the worms to death. This had the unfortunate side effect of also giving him objective tokens. My goal had been to charge the cavalry with the worms and stop them outside my deployment zone. But the unexpected action put them way out of position.

I disagree that blighting is a trap. It has been the only way I have been able to be successful as Waiqar against Daqan, to keep the number of dice they roll in check. I found the Support Lancer and Deathcaller trick to only really work against high armor targets, and once its realized what you are doing, your opponent won't give you a target to hit, other than the blocks of spearmen, which that effect really won't faze. Without blight, cavalry units at 3x2 or the spearmen deathstar just annihilate rank after rank of reanimates without slowing down. The only other unit I have had able to go toe-to-toe was the 3x2 carrion lancer, if you have a blight battery ready to turn on their mortal strikes.

 

Thanks to all my opponents for great games, and thanks to all who showed up.

Thanks for letting us know what you ran, as a Waiqar player it's interesting to hear someone playing Waiqar that had some success. Since we talked about @Duke2000's side was mostly Daqan, would you say your side was mostly Waiqar or what kind of opponents did you see mostly? Question on the 3x2 Lancers do they add more than one blight at a time? I feel like the amount of inspiration thrown out for Daqan is hard to succumb, Everything having the ability to add blight in your list seems like a great idea.

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The 3x2 Carrion Lancer would still only produce 1 blight token with its Skill action, sadly.

The only way I have found to overcome the amount of inspiration Daqan can produce is to run the Archers with Combat Ingenuity; when you are putting out 2-4 blight a turn per archer, they will eventually be forced to rally it off or just attack with no dice. Less attacks from cavalry blocks and spearstars the better.

 

I waited too long to post this due to NOVA, so I don't remember the full details of all the lists.


My round 1 and Top 4 game were against the same Waiqar player.


My round 2 was also against Waiqar as well. He ran 3x2 Lancer, Ankaur, and 3x2 Rune Golems. I believe he had Master-Crafted Weapons and Combat Ingenuity on the worms.
My reanimates with archer support just shredded the golems with mortal strikes and the blights just kept them from attacking. I traded a couple worms for a couple of his worms without losing much else.
 

My round 3 was against Daqan.  Unfortunately, he made many movement mistakes, bumping himself all the time. Ultimately, he fed me one unit at a time, and it did not end well.

 

The split across the tournament seemed to be about 50/50. The cut was also 2 Waiqar and 2 Daqan.

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31 minutes ago, schizoscifi said:

The 3x2 Carrion Lancer would still only produce 1 blight token with its Skill action, sadly.

The only way I have found to overcome the amount of inspiration Daqan can produce is to run the Archers with Combat Ingenuity; when you are putting out 2-4 blight a turn per archer, they will eventually be forced to rally it off or just attack with no dice. Less attacks from cavalry blocks and spearstars the better.

 

I waited too long to post this due to NOVA, so I don't remember the full details of all the lists.


My round 1 and Top 4 game were against the same Waiqar player.


My round 2 was also against Waiqar as well. He ran 3x2 Lancer, Ankaur, and 3x2 Rune Golems. I believe he had Master-Crafted Weapons and Combat Ingenuity on the worms.
My reanimates with archer support just shredded the golems with mortal strikes and the blights just kept them from attacking. I traded a couple worms for a couple of his worms without losing much else.
 

My round 3 was against Daqan.  Unfortunately, he made many movement mistakes, bumping himself all the time. Ultimately, he fed me one unit at a time, and it did not end well.

 

The split across the tournament seemed to be about 50/50. The cut was also 2 Waiqar and 2 Daqan.

Super interested to know if you remember if that 3x2 Rune Golems ran any upgrades? 

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1 hour ago, schizoscifi said:

The 3x2 Carrion Lancer would still only produce 1 blight token with its Skill action, sadly.

The only way I have found to overcome the amount of inspiration Daqan can produce is to run the Archers with Combat Ingenuity; when you are putting out 2-4 blight a turn per archer, they will eventually be forced to rally it off or just attack with no dice. Less attacks from cavalry blocks and spearstars the better.

 

I waited too long to post this due to NOVA, so I don't remember the full details of all the lists.


My round 1 and Top 4 game were against the same Waiqar player.


My round 2 was also against Waiqar as well. He ran 3x2 Lancer, Ankaur, and 3x2 Rune Golems. I believe he had Master-Crafted Weapons and Combat Ingenuity on the worms.
My reanimates with archer support just shredded the golems with mortal strikes and the blights just kept them from attacking. I traded a couple worms for a couple of his worms without losing much else.
 

My round 3 was against Daqan.  Unfortunately, he made many movement mistakes, bumping himself all the time. Ultimately, he fed me one unit at a time, and it did not end well.

 

The split across the tournament seemed to be about 50/50. The cut was also 2 Waiqar and 2 Daqan.

Thanks for the info, I've always wondered what units if any to use from another army with ankaur. two massive blocks of sieges seems like an interesting option lol. What do you mean 2-4 blight per turn per archer? Each archer can only dish out one blight per turn since it is not a surge+, right?

NOVA?

I'm definitely going to try your set up, see if I like it. The problem I run into is my blighted vexillum always gets plugged before I can even get to a unit, stupid Latari and their accuracy on blue die.

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