patox

A question and a statement to FFG Legion apologists

74 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Games Workshop has openly stated on many occasions that it is a miniatures company first and that it makes rules as part of selling miniatures. That is not true of FFG. FFG sells games first and foremost, some of which use miniatures as components. 

Ok, so it is not the same scale (10% difference) because they are not a miniature company. Wow. You got me.

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Just now, Guest Lucas said:

Ok, so it is not the same scale (10% difference) because they are not a miniature company.

No, that isn't the argument I made.

First, GW does not maintain a consistent scale. Their miniatures have gotten progressively bigger over the decades. But the issue there isn't scale so much as "compatibility," that is, whether you can use a miniature from (for example) Warhammer Quest Shadows Over Hammerhal in an Age of Sigmar tournament. Yes, you can do that - in fact, all the miniatures in that Warhammer Quest board game actually started off as Age of Sigmar miniatures. GW just packaged them in the board game. Again, this is because Games Workshop's business model is all about selling miniatures; that includes publishing games to sell miniatures.

Conversely, FFG sells various product lines that are not meant to be gateways to one another because they do not start with the universal goal of selling miniatures. Instead, their goal is to sell separate games. To wit, Imperial Assault and Legion are separate games. The plan was never to use Imperial Assault as a gateway to tempt customers into buying Legion (or vice versa). The components are non-compatible for the simple reason that we are talking about separate, unrelated product lines.

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4 minutes ago, Manchu said:

No, that isn't the argument I made.

First, GW does not maintain a consistent scale. Their miniatures have gotten progressively bigger over the decades. But the issue there isn't scale so much as "compatibility," that is, whether you can use a miniature from (for example) Warhammer Quest Shadows Over Hammerhal in an Age of Sigmar tournament. Yes, you can do that - in fact, all the miniatures in that Warhammer Quest board game actually started off as Age of Sigmar miniatures. GW just packaged them in the board game. Again, this is because Games Workshop's business model is all about selling miniatures; that includes publishing games to sell miniatures.

Conversely, FFG sells various product lines that are not meant to be gateways to one another because they do not start with the universal goal of selling miniatures. Instead, their goal is to sell separate games. To wit, Imperial Assault and Legion are separate games. The plan was never to use Imperial Assault as a gateway to tempt customers into buying Legion (or vice versa). The components are non-compatible for the simple reason that we are talking about separate, unrelated product lines.

This is exactly the argument you made. And of course IA is an entry point for Legion ! Why would be complain otherwise ? X-Wing has been an entry point for many players who discovered FFG, who went for armada ! Who told you" The plan was never to use Imperial Assault as a gateway to tempt customers into buying Legion (or vice versa)." ? FFG CEO himself ? If yes, he is **** stupid (and I don't believe that).

"The components are non-compatible for the simple reason that we are talking about separate, unrelated product lines." --> They are related. Of course they are !!! Why would we complain otherwise ?

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No, you asked me why miniatures are compatible across GW board games and GW miniatures games and I explained to you that the reason is because GW is first and foremost in the business of selling miniatures, according to itself.

X-Wing is not a gateway to Armada. Imperial Assault is not a gateway to Legion. You can tell this is true because there is no cross-compatibility between these games.

Again, please explain how Imperial Assault and Legion must have compatible components.

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8 minutes ago, Guest Lucas said:

You can like FFG and still admit they made a mistake. I love FFG. I have countless games from them. I spend a fortune on their games and I think their design is the best of the best. IA is a masterpiece. Rebellion is a masterpiece. I love Armada. I love X-xing. But doing 2 games with mini so close (but still incompatible) is ridiculous. Thing of a game like X-wing, but with a 10% difference in size. Wouldn't it be a bit ridiculous ? Rules are different. Ok. Number of mini is different : ok. But for example, WH Quest the board game and Warhammer are totally different games, different focus, different scale. But the mini are f****g compatible !!!!

I'm just kind of used to buying new miniatures. For example, the new Kihraxz Fighters in the scum aces pack are compatible with the old Kihraxz, but without the new cards in the aces pack, the old Kihraxzs are unusable in any competitive sense. So I'm going to need to buy a whole bunch of those aces packs, even if I already have a full fleet of Kihraxzs. After playing the other FFG games, I'm used to no cross-compatibility, no support for older titles, etc. 

I just don't think it's fair to blame FFG for making a smart business decision and not supporting reuse of an old game with a completely new one, especially since they've never done so before. Perhaps other miniatures games have done this in past, but FFG has never made a true miniatures game before. Destiny, as FFG's first CCG, also had problems because FFG didn't do what was expected in other CCGs. There's still no draft format in Destiny, for example. 

If you don't like the game, don't buy it! It's FFG. It's going to be wonky, it's going to be expensive, but it's going to be fun. If you want a normal miniatures game like WH40K, don't play this one. 

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9 minutes ago, Manchu said:

No, you asked me why miniatures are compatible across GW board games and GW miniatures games and I explained to you that the reason is because GW is first and foremost in the business of selling miniatures, according to itself.

X-Wing is not a gateway to Armada. Imperial Assault is not a gateway to Legion. You can tell this is true because there is no cross-compatibility between these games.

Again, please explain how Imperial Assault and Legion must have compatible components.

I did. Many times. Other did. Many times. Read again. Now explain why Assault and Legion must NOT have compatible components. Do you consider that this is forbidden for non miniatures companies ? I see the picture in the meeting room : 

-"IA and Legion minis could have the same scale and ..."

-"How DARE YOU ! They CAN'T AS WE DON'T HAVE THE SAME BUSINESS MODEL THAN GW !"

 

By the way "No, you asked me why miniatures are compatible across GW board games and GW miniatures games and I explained to you that the reason is because GW is first and foremost in the business of selling miniatures, according to itself." --> you know that you stated 2 or 3 posts ago that you never said that. Reminder

22 minutes ago, Manchu said:
29 minutes ago, Guest Lucas said:

Ok, so it is not the same scale (10% difference) because they are not a miniature company.

No, that isn't the argument I made.

 

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Am I the only one who realizes that IA doesn't have a consistent scale? Lando and dengar are definitely 32mm and everything in the core box is less than 28mm

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8 hours ago, Slugrage said:

Yay! Yet another thread with exactly the same argument as all the other threads about it!

too_much_salt_360.jpg

1-How would you feel if you bought table salt and Mortons then started selling kosher salt? 

2-McCormick at least sells salt blends...

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8 minutes ago, Guest Lucas said:

Now explain why Assault and Legion must NOT have compatible components.

First, there is the possible issue of a license dispute with Hasbro. If that rumor is true then FFG would be very foolish to risk losing certain legal rights to Legion because of a connection to Imperial Assault.

But we can write that off as just a rumor, if you like.

Second, compatibility of miniatures is not compatibility of games. It would be foolish for FFG to invest in a product line that customers did not need to buy in order to play. The compatibility of only one category of components, in this case the miniatures, is thus a red herring. People who own IA figures and want to use them in Legion would in any case have to obtain the rest of the components.

Third, IA figures are of adequate quality for a board game. They are not of adequate quality for a miniatures game. I suspect that many existing miniatures gamers will find even Legion miniatures to be wanting, compared to recent Games Workshop models. But all the same, mixing board game and miniatures game components is not good for the brand of the miniatures game.

I'm sure I could think of other reasons.

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2 minutes ago, Guest JackBurton01 said:

Am I the only one who realizes that IA doesn't have a consistent scale? Lando and dengar are definitely 32mm and everything in the core box is less than 28mm

No, this is a complaint that existing miniatures gamers have with IA.

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13 hours ago, patox said:

2) Even GW at their very worst, Space Hulk, Gorka Morka nad Necromunda miniatures were still allowed in 40k armies at Official GW Events

Not quite. They even changed army rules (the famous codexes) from edition to edition so sometimes one needed to buy half the army again to make them official GW tournament friendly.

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Kentares, that is a good point. Although most (not all) models made by GW are ok to use in GW events, it's not like that future proofs your GW purchases.

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1 hour ago, Guest Lucas said:

No, they are not. Stating the opposite with your friend posting +1 does not prove anything. You can argue and you have not facts, just affirmations. Anyway, you'll be pleased and FFG won't get my money.

Ok, so counter question:

Why are you so mad?

It just seems like the problem people complaining have is that they wanted a game like Legion in the first place. When IA came out they bought it anyway, even though it wasn't really what they wanted. Now the game they actually want is coming out, they are upset they bought the game they didn't really want and now feel FFG "owes them" for IA not really being what they wanted.

It's like getting pulled over for speeding, and blaming the cop. 

 

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So is this Fantasy Flight’s new business model?

To deliberately make game systems incompatible, even if it’s entirely possible to make the parts interchangeable?

It’s only been a few days, so there is no official ruling on whether Legion and Imperial Assault miniatures can be swapped out for each other at official events. But by making the same characters taller by a full head and by changing the bases entirely, the incongruities seem to indicate FFG intention to ensure incompatibility.

For those who believe the larger scale was introduced to add more detail and appease avid painters, have a look at other companies. Maybe Imperial Assault figures aren’t for everyone, but other manufacturers have been able to capture a lot of detail at 28-30mm. The Star Wars miniatures from Knight Models are a prime example of beautiful figures at 30mm.

If you think the Knight Models were only possible because they were cast in metal, take a look at CMON. They have equal success in plastics with as much detail as the Knight Models, if not more, at the 28-30mm scale.

And irrespective of the amount of detail, many wargamers are indifferent to it. From past experience, many armies go unpainted. Or they’re sloppily primed with splotches here and there. A larger-sized miniature does not lead to more painted figures. (who remembers the 54mm Inquisitor game?) The avid painter population is small compared to the overall wargamer base.

For those who believe the incompatibility is due to licensing restriction. FFG has a lot more leeway than many give them credit. From the outside, the partnership with Disney looks extremely strong, even to the point that FFG introduces new canon material (like the Raider) and releases board games like Rebellion and Imperial Assault that override Hasbro’s license. If FFG proposed the same-sized figures across all their product lines, given the broad latitude Disney has given them for other things, it would be hard to imagine that they would be denied this.

The term “apologist” was used, because the defense of Legion seems blind. If Legion were the exact same scale as Imperial Assault, it is with absolute certainty that the game would be embraced just same. (And if it were released at a scale that matched it’s name at 10-15mm, it would probably be embraced even more)

There is no official explanation to why Legion figures are a whole head taller than their Imperial Assault counterparts. As it stands (and as the miniatures stand), the most obvious conclusion is to ensure incompatibility and realize short-term monetary gain.

It would be welcome to get a true justification to why Legion is bigger, because right now everyone is just guessing, And it seems like FFG has completely disregarded the efforts of their Imperial Assault customer base. And that is the frustration you’re hearing. Many, including myself, have sunk vast amounts of time, resources, and money into Imperial Assault system.

With Legion, FFG is asking these customers to do it all over again and, if this is their new business model, are we expected to do it all over again in a few years? Because even Games Workshop, did not require their customers to continually start over again from scratch.

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1 minute ago, patox said:

The term “apologist” was used, because the defense of Legion seems blind. If Legion were the exact same scale as Imperial Assault, it is with absolute certainty that the game would be embraced just same.

If you look around the forum, it is easy to find quite a lot of discussion about why changing scales is reasonable. So criticizing the position as blind is a bit ... ironic. Additionally, if there is a such thing as "IA scale" and Legion was made in that scale, it is absolutely certain there would be complaints and that they would be nearly the same ones: "why does FFG want us to buy the same miniatures again?"

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IA was FFG's way of making Descent in the Star Wars universe. They threw together some rules and said if you want to play skirmish, here you go and we'll organize a tournament. IA is NOT a tactical wargame and if you asked anyone who plays 40k/Warmahordes/Infinity/etc would laugh at the comparison. If you want to play small skirmish games with IA, have at it. NO ONE is stopping you. Some of us who thought that IA didn't go far enough are really excited about actual squad based combat where it's a LOT of Imperials versus Rebels, not 5-6 ugnaughts or whatever non-sense won Nationals at GenCon.

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On 8/21/2017 at 3:11 PM, Guest Lucas said:

This is exactly the argument you made. And of course IA is an entry point for Legion ! Why would be complain otherwise ? X-Wing has been an entry point for many players who discovered FFG, who went for armada ! Who told you" The plan was never to use Imperial Assault as a gateway to tempt customers into buying Legion (or vice versa)." ? FFG CEO himself ? If yes, he is **** stupid (and I don't believe that).

"The components are non-compatible for the simple reason that we are talking about separate, unrelated product lines." --> They are related. Of course they are !!! Why would we complain otherwise ?

IA was not a entry to Legion as a Miniature Player and Wargamer it was quite obvious IA was not for someone like me, so I didn't buy it and waited for them to release something like Legion, they made a game with better miniatures and an actual war-game to boot, wargames have all moved to larger model scales even 28mm is now really 32+ and to be competitive in that sphere you have to create something to tackle that market. So making larger figures is the correct business case if the goal is to make a wargame to get into the arena with a strong IP

 

On 8/21/2017 at 4:14 PM, Ghostofman said:

Ok, so counter question:

Why are you so mad?

It just seems like the problem people complaining have is that they wanted a game like Legion in the first place. When IA came out they bought it anyway, even though it wasn't really what they wanted. Now the game they actually want is coming out, they are upset they bought the game they didn't really want and now feel FFG "owes them" for IA not really being what they wanted.

It's like getting pulled over for speeding, and blaming the cop. 

 

I think this is the problem to a T. It's everyone who wanted a wargame bought IA hoping it would be that,  then feeling cheated by legion being the actual wargame, it makes sense that they feel that way, but they made the choice to purchase hoping the game would become something it was never meant to be.

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Posted (edited)

If it were Imperial Assault 2.0 and none of my current figures were compatible, I would probably be a little annoyed.  Since it's not, it's Star Wars Legion, it's okay.  If I invest $1000+ into a Legion army or X-wing Collection (like I already have) and then they announce Legion 2.0 or X-wing 2.0, I'll probably be a little annoyed if zero of the old figures are compatible.

But even in that eventuality, it's the most likely that they won't be compatible with the next version.  Such is the nature.  It's going to be okay.  I refuse to apologize to anyone for being excited to play this game.  I'm not an apologist, I'm just excited, and there's nothing blind or dishonest about it.   The game looks to be a rank and file that's tailor made to me specifically.  I'm not a hobbyist and the hobbyist aspects of miniature gaming don't appeal to me.  I'm sorry others aren't as excited as me, but if the game isn't for them, that's cool.  It doesn't make me wrong for being excited or them wrong for being disappointed.  

 

I want to play this game.  Who wants to play with me?

Edited by Engine25
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51 minutes ago, patox said:

With Legion, FFG is asking these customers to do it all over again and, if this is their new business model, are we expected to do it all over again in a few years? Because even Games Workshop, did not require their customers to continually start over again from scratch.

That implies that Legion is replacing IA.  It's not.  IA is still going on in its own direction.   More IA expansions are coming and we can keep playing it like legion never happened.

They are completely different games.

This situation is nothing like GW saying the new edition of Warhammer requires brand new figures.

This is like saying you can't use your figures from Decent in Runewars.  They are set in the same universe and both come with unpainted figures, but that's about all the games have in common.

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Posted (edited)

Like I stated in another thread, IA=boardgame; Legion=tabletop miniatures wargame.  Completely different games and genres. FFG has been expanding their catalog beyond just boardgames for years now with the introduction of the LCG/CCG card games, pre-painted miniature games, and now tabletop miniatures wargames with Legion and the Runewars Miniature Game. They are all different genres that appeal to different target audiences.  FFG is just diversifying their product portfolio to increase their overall customer base. Some folks are interested in multiple genres others are very specific to one genre. With Legion, FFG is trying to tap into the hobbyist miniature wargaming community by appealing to the 40k, AoS, Bolt Action crowd not the boardgame crowd that IA is part of. There is no harm in liking multiple genres of games but you need to understand this to understand why your IA boardgame figures are not considered an entry into Legion nor expect compatability.  The gateway into Legion or Runewars Miniature Game is the core set not IA or Descent.  if you like the core set then you will expand your collection through the purchasing of expansion packs for Legion or RMG, if you don't like it then you sell the core set off and look elsewhere. Its that simple really.

Edited by DesignXception
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We had the same experience in Destiny because it wasn't an LCG, they go away eventually, or if you like you can help by ignoring them. I would also add, get a set or two on pre-order, let your store know you want it so they too get it on their pre-order. Destiny suffered because of lack of pre-orders and the forum negativity.

Soon enough well start seeing rules being published online, spoilers for various upgrades and units and so on. The conversation will turn on to more constructive topics and far more fun will be had by both sides of the discussion.

 

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On 22/08/2017 at 2:11 AM, Engine25 said:

I'm hyped, but I'm not a hobbyist.  The game looks simple and fun, and I'm not into painting and scale is irrelevant to me.  I wouldn't have expected it to be compatible with IA even if the minis were the same size, because FFG has other products that could happen for and hasn't done it.

I just want to play the game.  And I'll shamelessly put out my unpainted army across from your admittedly gorgeous and painstakingly painted figures, shake your hand, and we'll throwdown.  And you'll probably win, but at least I met you and we had a good time.  That's what really matters.

This

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