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Just now, Shadin said:

Oh yeah, Legion is going to sell great.  My only point is that I don't think it's going to cannibalize other wargames, or even cannibalize RuneWars.  The Star Wars fanbase is large enough and fanatical enough to keep the game afloat despite the missteps that Fantasy Flight makes in miniature wargames.  There's a reason why RuneWars isn't doing so hot and X-Wing is, despite suffering from some of the same missteps.

Oh no it certainly won't do that there is more than enough room for that in fact this may introduce others to those worlds and be good for all of our communities. Maybe I can find a few more infinity players in the future out there. 

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55 minutes ago, porkins_dietician said:

Oh no it certainly won't do that there is more than enough room for that in fact this may introduce others to those worlds and be good for all of our communities. Maybe I can find a few more infinity players in the future out there. 

Yeah I played infinity for a year straight with a friend every Monday, and the LGS even announced it as Infinity/small skirmish minis day on their website, and while we had people look and ask we never got a consistent even 3rd person.

 

I switched to X-Wing after that, but i would gladly play one or both of RuneWars or Legion if people play it locally.  That said, I don't think any stores in my town stocked a single copy of RuneWars.  40k presence runs my local scene, with X-Wing being a clear second.

 

This game looks much more like WarmaHordes in scale to me, and that's what I want since that game died locally about 3 years ago.  If 2-3 other people want to play the game, I'll probably pick up a core or 2, and might get one to treat as a board game anyway.

 

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Warmahordes is popular in my area but strictly the tournament side of it, which is annoying. Once the major tournaments are done i never, ever see those guys until the following tournament season.

Also prime example why you should never sell your minis. I sold my trollbloods and i am PISSED i did that.

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1 hour ago, Shadin said:

Oh yeah, Legion is going to sell great.  My only point is that I don't think it's going to cannibalize other wargames, or even cannibalize RuneWars.  The Star Wars fanbase is large enough and fanatical enough to keep the game afloat despite the missteps that Fantasy Flight makes in miniature wargames.  There's a reason why RuneWars isn't doing so hot and X-Wing is, despite suffering from some of the same missteps.

Aside from the fact that there are multiple accounts all over the forums saying they will not get into RuneWars before seeing how Legion turns out, and will probably move to that since it ll be better supported. Myself being one of those (since Latari Elves took AGES to come out, and a few days before release this announcement dropped)

So the question is not whether its going to cannibalize the RW community - it already is. The question will be how much.

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44 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Warmahordes is popular in my area but strictly the tournament side of it, which is annoying. Once the major tournaments are done i never, ever see those guys until the following tournament season.

Also prime example why you should never sell your minis. I sold my trollbloods and i am PISSED i did that.

Want mine?

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4 hours ago, Shadin said:

You're not wrong, but I would also add that Star Wars doesn't have enough interesting factions in it without serious shoehorning.  FFG underestimated how important having many factions in a war game is with RuneWars and here we are.  After the Empire and Rebellion, you have to start forcing factions in that are just thematically stupid, like "Scum".  I think Legion is going to be far more successful than RuneWars despite this, because the Star Wars license just prints money, but I don't think that it will seriously draw players away from other wargaming, I think it will just bring in droves of board gamers and Star Wars fans.

Legion may very well become more successful then Runewars, but I'm curious how you can say I'm wrong about what happens in my gaming circles?  I mean its not like I made it up, I asked them, they told me, I offered up our experience.  I'm 100% certain, I'm 100% right about everything I said, because they are stone cold indisputable facts.

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For what it's worth, I did not seriously consider Runewars Minis until the Legion announcement. Now, in anticipation of Legion, I've researched Runewars Minis and think that it's a better game than the GW stuff, so I'm in the process of moving over from AoS / 40K to Runewars / Legion right now. I think GW minis are better, but it looks like FFG is making better games.

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28 minutes ago, Manchu said:

FWIW Legion does not share any mechanics with RW.

They share some mechanics, but mechanically, I actually like the way that Runewars works better in many ways. I'm still excited for Legion.

Edited by HooblaDGN

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What mechanics are you thinking of in terms of what they share? I can only think of converting surges off the top of my head. Actually, I'm not sure if that's how RW works. Surges in RW actually power abilities right?

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13 minutes ago, HooblaDGN said:

They both simplify movement and employ maneuver templates, although in different forms. That matters a lot to me, as AoS/40K RAW movement is a pain.

 

yeah. Definitely really liked the movement templates in RWs so far. My group played 40K/Fantasy pretty heavily. Sadly fantasy was blown up and turned into flash Gordon super heroes and 40K is fast heading there with the return of the primarch. Honestly reading the short lore book of Runewars reminded me a lot of the old world writing, while all the new AoS stuff is fighting over the poop moat around the bone castle with raining blood from the fart clouds. Dunno why anyone wants that place XD. Add to that the removal of templates from both GW's systems and the continuing imbalances both systems still have and RW was refreshing.

 

One thing FFG does right is game mechanics and rules updates/clarifications. Really looking for SWL to scratch my 40K itch as well.

Edited by Zeelobby

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20 minutes ago, HooblaDGN said:

They both simplify movement and employ maneuver templates, although in different forms.

... via completely different mechanics.

Movement mechanics in RW and Legion might even be contrasted as opposite ends of the spectrum.

I just don't want anyone reading to get the wrong impression that RW and Legion are anything alike.

Edited by Manchu

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9 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

Legion may very well become more successful then Runewars, but I'm curious how you can say I'm wrong about what happens in my gaming circles?  I mean its not like I made it up, I asked them, they told me, I offered up our experience.  I'm 100% certain, I'm 100% right about everything I said, because they are stone cold indisputable facts.

When did I say you were wrong?

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Runewars setting is beyond bland, it's full of classic fantasy trope factions.  I suppose when you're inventing a setting for a new miniatures game, you need to go as safe as possible, and that means what's tried and true.


Legion will likely sell well, but I don't expect the game will become a huge success.  The demos at Gencon made it look pretty light and simple, with a ton of dice-rolling.  The board is so small (or at least the demo board was -- maybe it will be on a 3x6 like Runewars?  Or maybe it will keep the 3x3 like X-Wing?) that there isn't really any room for tactical flexibility.  It's kind of like Warhammer, 40k, AT-43, Confrontation, Mordheim, Warmachine, Hordes, and Dust: the game looks super fun, you get sucked in collecting the minis and fantasizing about your epic battles you'll have, but when you actually manage to find the time and an opponent to play, the game experience is always pretty lacking and leaves you wondering why you invested all that time and all that effort in building a force and setting a game up.

The real problem, though, is that Legion will continue to cannibalize from the already stretched-thin Star Wars FFG gamers.  We saw the X-Wing community shrink when Armada came out, we saw it shrink more when Imperial Assault came out, and it's take a really big hit now with Destiny out.  I don't think it's good for the Star Wars gamers to be spread across five popular concurrent FFG games, especially when four of them are tabletop miniatures games.

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6 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Runewars setting is beyond bland, it's full of classic fantasy trope factions.  I suppose when you're inventing a setting for a new miniatures game, you need to go as safe as possible, and that means what's tried and true.


Legion will likely sell well, but I don't expect the game will become a huge success.  The demos at Gencon made it look pretty light and simple, with a ton of dice-rolling.  The board is so small (or at least the demo board was -- maybe it will be on a 3x6 like Runewars?  Or maybe it will keep the 3x3 like X-Wing?) that there isn't really any room for tactical flexibility.  It's kind of like Warhammer, 40k, AT-43, Confrontation, Mordheim, Warmachine, Hordes, and Dust: the game looks super fun, you get sucked in collecting the minis and fantasizing about your epic battles you'll have, but when you actually manage to find the time and an opponent to play, the game experience is always pretty lacking and leaves you wondering why you invested all that time and all that effort in building a force and setting a game up.

The real problem, though, is that Legion will continue to cannibalize from the already stretched-thin Star Wars FFG gamers.  We saw the X-Wing community shrink when Armada came out, we saw it shrink more when Imperial Assault came out, and it's take a really big hit now with Destiny out.  I don't think it's good for the Star Wars gamers to be spread across five popular concurrent FFG games, especially when four of them are tabletop miniatures games.

Runewars: I think that going safe with a weak IP is suicide most of the time. The miniature games I have seen try to do something different to either get people from other hobbies or people that Play miniatures, but would like another setting more/ are fed up with the handling of the game. The bland nature of RW will probably be its demise.

Legion: I think that Legion has the potential to be a huge success, but FFG has to step up its promotion and supporting game.

I think that light rules that get expanded by unit and card effect is good for the game, given that FFG tries to get in new players and players from other FFG miniature games. If the card and miniature effects create difficult decisions, I don't think that the game will alienating the hard core Gamers.

I think that Legion will be disastrous for IA and Armada, because the playerbase is pretty unhappy with the competitive environment. RW will take a hit, which will hurt it in the long run, because it is in its infancy. XWing will probably take a hit, but it is lessened by the fact that the target audience of XWing is much larger than the Legion one.

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Honestly I see RW's safe setting as a blessing. Having just watched the Warhammer World get turned into a "new" and "edgy" amorphous blobs for AoS has killed my desire to play that game. It doesn't help that the writing behind it is pretty dismal as well. But game companies are snatching up IP licensing for the old world (which was as generic as can be) to create games while no one is approaching AoS. Total War: Warhammer, Mordheim, Vermintide, etc. I honestly think RW did the right thing. They just need to hire good writers and produce more books to expand the world. They've forever done this through supplemental items in games, but if they really want to build large tabletop gaming franchises they really need to dive in (an RPG book here, novel there, etc).

I mean Infinity and Malifaux are both Earth based settings. WMH is a generic trope filled steampunk fantasy world. Most fantasy games that have done well follow this same pattern, at least where tabletop gaming is concerned.

Legion already has tons of content to pull from obviously, so no worries there.

Edited by Zeelobby

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56 minutes ago, Zeelobby said:

Honestly I see RW's safe setting as a blessing. Having just watched the Warhammer World get turned into a "new" and "edgy" amorphous blobs for AoS has killed my desire to play that game. It doesn't help that the writing behind it is pretty dismal as well. But game companies are snatching up IP licensing for the old world (which was as generic as can be) to create games while no one is approaching AoS. Total War: Warhammer, Mordheim, Vermintide, etc. I honestly think RW did the right thing. They just need to hire good writers and produce more books to expand the world. They've forever done this through supplemental items in games, but if they really want to build large tabletop gaming franchises they really need to dive in (an RPG book here, novel there, etc).

I mean Infinity and Malifaux are both Earth based settings. WMH is a generic trope filled steampunk fantasy world. Most fantasy games that have done well follow this same pattern, at least where tabletop gaming is concerned.

Legion already has tons of content to pull from obviously, so no worries there.

I think that "edgy" helps sell miniature games (because war is dark and gritty). I don't like AoS, because the storytelling is BS and to me it feels like they don't even try anymore. I don't think that Warhammer Fantasy was as generic as RW (coming from DSA and DnD). The mature and gritty feel of WH made the setting pretty unique. Especially Mordheim was very exciting to play (from a setting perspective).

I wouldn't differentiate between earth and fantasyworld games, because I don't think it matters for the interest of the game (if they don't try to be historical accurate). I think that every miniature game uses tropes very frequently to garner attention and make siding with factions more easy. The difference is, that Malifaux, WMH and Infinity use different tropes and genres to garner their audience.

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1 hour ago, Zeelobby said:

Legion already has tons of content to pull from obviously, so no worries there.

It does, but it doesn't have room for a ton of truly unique/different factions.  It's not going to be like 40k or Warmahords, or even Infinity.  It's going to be like Bolt Action where any faction is different mostly in it's special rules and abilities rather than in a truly different play style.

Who knows they may do a S&V type faction, they may even go as far as doing a CIS, and Old Republic faction... Perhaps a Mandalorian Faction (Which would be Amazing to collect and paint, even though I consider Boba Fett the most over rated and Mary Sue character in fiction period...).  But you'll not get the type of differences in faction you have in 40k.  Simply because everyone in SW has the same basic tech, like they did in WWII.

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Pretty much the only issue between RWM and SWL isnt the game itself, they function completely different, its the hobby part of it.
FFG isnt putting out GW prices, but its still expensive. Yes i know several 40k people who have multiple armies (guilty....) but thats over the course of several years. Truth i have easily 7000USD sunk into 40k between orks and tau, but over 8 years......

If you play both, you are spending probably 2x the cost of your armies. Plus, now you gotta paint them all lol (which is why i am probably going to make a "Darth Vader's Chosen" type army where everyone is a shiny black since it would be super easy and fast to do that). From a 40k perspective, not that big a deal...its still less models than an Ork/Daemon/Tyranid/Tau army...but FFG rarely seems to get the attention of the people that actually like painting it seems. My god the amount of whining i got locally about having to paint the models...lol...

Edited by Vineheart01

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25 minutes ago, Ignithas said:

I think that "edgy" helps sell miniature games (because war is dark and gritty). I don't like AoS, because the storytelling is BS and to me it feels like they don't even try anymore. I don't think that Warhammer Fantasy was as generic as RW (coming from DSA and DnD). The mature and gritty feel of WH made the setting pretty unique. Especially Mordheim was very exciting to play (from a setting perspective).

I wouldn't differentiate between earth and fantasyworld games, because I don't think it matters for the interest of the game (if they don't try to be historical accurate). I think that every miniature game uses tropes very frequently to garner attention and make siding with factions more easy. The difference is, that Malifaux, WMH and Infinity use different tropes and genres to garner their audience.

I didn't mean edgy as in "dark and gritty". I meant edgy as in dinosaur riding molten dwarves with battle lasers and forest queens balancing on daemon beetles, etc. As in attempting to be cool. I do agree that the old world had that dark and gritty atmosphere. It's just absent from AoS. Honestly there's just no character building. There's lots of batles, with lots of violence, but you don't really care about the characters. They didn't grow up in the mean streets of town X to become champion of Y, etc.

And yeah, the use of different tropes is pretty common when comparing games. That said, Grymkin are basically a nod to Maulifaux factions, and even Infinity has "werewolves". So there's always some overlap.

In the end I'm happy with the Runewars world, I think it just needs to be expanded and, more importantly, needs to be supported for several years if they really want it to take off. I mean anyone expecting a game with only 2.25 of the 4 factions released, and only a year old, to be pulling in 100+ tournament players is just crazy. Well supported for several years and I could see it hit the 50/60 participants mark though. I mean people always seem to forget that Warhammer took decades to get where it is, and Warmachine/Hordes has been out for 15 years. I've heard that FFG can be fickle in it's support of things that don't immediately sell buttloads, so I'm hoping they don't just fold up shop.

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Runewars is definately going to die especially  in my area anyway.

My group got into Runewars because they wanted a miniatures system that didnt have the problems that Xwing, Armada and IA have but had the good bits from them. Hence Runewars.

Now that Legion is coming, they get that and its also Star Wars.

 

Edited by Irokenics

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21 hours ago, Zeelobby said:

I didn't mean edgy as in "dark and gritty". I meant edgy as in dinosaur riding molten dwarves with battle lasers and forest queens balancing on daemon beetles, etc. As in attempting to be cool. I do agree that the old world had that dark and gritty atmosphere. It's just absent from AoS. Honestly there's just no character building. There's lots of batles, with lots of violence, but you don't really care about the characters. They didn't grow up in the mean streets of town X to become champion of Y, etc.

Out of curiosity, how many Age of Sigmar novels and/or Battletome lore sections have you read?

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