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Guest AdmiralAndy
12 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Well seeing as the North American RuneWars Championship at Gencon only had an embarrassing turnout of 16 People, I think it's safe to say RuneWars was already being neglected well before Legion came along.

Could that be because of the 40K and AoS, and GW specialist games ala Blood Bowl general resurgence? I think other Wargame ranges will probably be feeling the same, peeps only have so much disposable income after all. Don't know when the RuneWar champs was but assuming a post 40K 8th ed release and other GW title push.

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AdmiralAndy - Can't make it any more clear: I do not know, do not claim to know, and have never claimed to know why FFG or any of its employees make decisions. That is a separate matter from what is self-evidently reasonable. Moreover, I think it is absurd to assume that the scale of a miniatures game representing a massive risk to the publisher and requiring extensive vetting by license holders was not a well-considered, thoroughly analyzed decision but rather just some mistake. Honestly not interested in your tone policing, either. Happy to continue discussing the actual topic, however.

BigKahuna - In contrast to your experience, I recently (last month) watched a ton of lets plays, read tons of article, and finally bought the RW core set, painted up the Daqans, and played ... and the game just didn't grab me. Not sure whether I will make any further purchases. Something like this happened to me with Armada, as well; I could see in an "objective" sense that it was a really tightly designed game with clever decision points but it it didn't "come alive" for me, like (say) X-Wing. I think feeling this ambivalent about RW means I don't have the same kind of stake in whether the support falls off. Meanwhile, over in the RW sub-forum, there is so much anxiety. As to anecdotal evidence, it really doesn't amount to much. When GW launched Age of Sigmar, people talked forever about how GW had made a huge mistake, the game was dead, no one was playing it at the LGS, nobody was buying it, etc, etc. Turned out to be very, very wrong. Anecdotal evidence is not only just based on what I see individually; it's based on what I want to see, albeit unconsciously.

Edited by Manchu

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7 minutes ago, Manchu said:

and requiring extensive vetting by license holders

I know for a fact that LFL/Disney is very, very hands on when it comes to the stuff FFG produces, even going as far as needing their approval of articles they publish for X-Wing on their web page.

So to say this was just some mistake that slipped by is nonsense of the highest order.  The size of the models was a deliberate and intentional decision, one approved of by not just FFG's management, but also Asmodee and LFL/Disney.  Why they came to that decision is up for debate, there's a number of possible reasons, and there is also going to be more than one reason for it.  But one thing it absolutely is not is a mistake that slipped through the cracks.

Edited by VanorDM

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this is the general consensus around me. The few people i got into RWM no longer are interested because of Legion and thin pocketbooks.
As it is, we already got at least 7 people highly interested in legion. And now 0 in RWM. Fml....

 

This isnt a question on whether FFG can support multiple games, its whether the player base can afford/paint it. It takes me about an hour to paint one 28mm model typically, which is usually somewhere between tabletop "crap but its painted" quality and showcase level of work. I already play 40k, i have RWM, and i want Legion. One of these is going away, and its going to be the one i cant find players for now. Even before Legion is shipped nobody is interested in playing RWM even if they already OWN IT.

Edited by Vineheart01

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On 8/21/2017 at 1:57 AM, BrobaFett said:

Devils advocate-

I was about to hop into Rune Wars immediately prior to Legion, but now will not be, and instead picking up Legion.

Different itches yes, but to say will not affect the other might be a little reductive.

Exactly.  One of the guys in my gaming group bought into Rune Wars.  I was on the fence about it (didn't like any of the factions yet) and now am in the "no buy" camp with the announcement of Legion.

I will add that a Legend of the Five Rings miniatures game would stop me from buying Legion...hint hint FFG. :)

Edited by ricefrisbeetreats

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1 hour ago, Manchu said:

When GW launched Age of Sigmar, people talked forever about how GW had made a huge mistake, the game was dead, no one was playing it at the LGS, nobody was buying it, etc, etc. 

And that was true. It wasn't until the game had been out for about a year and GW published the generals handbook that fixed most of people's complaints that AoS started to do well. That was also the point where most of the complaints stopped. Turned out that the anecdotal evidence was accurate enough that the company had to change the game to address the things people said were wrong with it. 

 

1 hour ago, Manchu said:

That is a separate matter from what is self-evidently reasonable.

That is a separate matter. However, as I said before, no one has actually come up with a reasonable reason for the difference, which means whatever the reason is it definitely isn't self evident, so the comment is pretty pointless. 

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I followed the trials and tribulations of AoS very closely and I don't think the General's Handbook "saved" the game at all. The game was being played and enjoyed by folks who did not require points-based army building for pick-up play support. When the GHB came out and that support was there, the folks who said that kind of support was a requirement for AoS to be a "complete game" (utter nonsense) finally stopped slagging off AoS as a matter of course. The GHB helped the tone of online banter about AoS, in parallel to GW's general "glasnost" after so many years of being aloof-to-hostile toward its customers. I don't believe GW published the GHB because AoS was incomplete or failing. Rather, given the timeline of GW opening up to spontaneously organized AoS events preceding the "three ways to play" angle, I think publishing the GHB was a way to co-opt/interface with its fanbase customers as part of the Warhammer Community roll-out.

Also I responded to your claim that there is no reasonable reason for a scale difference above, seems like you missed it.

 

Edited by Manchu

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2 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Well seeing as the North American RuneWars Championship at Gencon only had an embarrassing turnout of 16 People, I think it's safe to say RuneWars was already being neglected well before Legion came along.

Any idea what the Kings of War turn out was for GENCON? I have a feeling they're more likely the ones siphoning off players from Runewars than anyone else. It's definitely the reason I don't play Runewars. I went to Kings of Wars for my post-Warhammer fantasy itch and I've never regretted that decision. As cool as Runewars looks, I already have a good game system and models for my rank and file fantasy genre.

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Guest AdmiralAndy
2 hours ago, Manchu said:

AdmiralAndy - Can't make it any more clear: I do not know, do not claim to know, and have never claimed to know why FFG or any of its employees make decisions. That is a separate matter from what is self-evidently reasonable. Moreover, I think it is absurd to assume that the scale of a miniatures game representing a massive risk to the publisher and requiring extensive vetting by license holders was not a well-considered, thoroughly analyzed decision but rather just some mistake. Honestly not interested in your tone policing, either. Happy to continue discussing the actual topic, however.

 

The fact is your not discussing the topic however you are even at 4 lengthy paragraphs earlier regurgitating your same old arguments without incorporating anyone else view except to take great pains to show how wrong you consider they are. My original point is maybe your wrong and your pointing your opinion forward as fact, the only one who can put points across as fact is FFG you've just blindly taken for granted that your so unshakably right and if they stated any reasons it would be what you've said.

As you wrote earlier:

Reasons for scale difference are fairly apparent when you think about it. If stating them won't convince anyone, FFG stating them won't either.

Ergo what you say is what FFG will say, despite by your own admission your not privy to the inner workings of FFG anymore than the rest of us but your quite happy to say the reasons your putting forward is what FFG will say.

With that established therefore to quantify your expressing an opinion, it is FFG that put forwards the facts of the game design and decisions based around that, not you. It may turn out your right or part right or wide of the mark.

 

As for policing the only thing there I would say is until FFG do make a statement your putting forward an opinion, and unless you've never been wrong your just coming of as condescending and  dismissive of anyone's voice but your own and those in agreement with you. If you can't see someone presenting an opinion as if it where a fact is arrogant there can't be a constructive dialogue with such an individual, as it just becomes entrenched in your right there wrong that's it.

 

Please don't troll anymore of my posts, the arguments and opinions have been put forward I'm more interested to hear more of the reasoning behind the game design including scale from FFG community avenues.


 

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3 hours ago, Guest AdmiralAndy said:

Could that be because of the 40K and AoS, and GW specialist games ala Blood Bowl general resurgence? I think other Wargame ranges will probably be feeling the same, peeps only have so much disposable income after all. Don't know when the RuneWar champs was but assuming a post 40K 8th ed release and other GW title push.

Blood Bowl certainly squashed many purchases i had planned prior to the rerelease, but im different than most gamers playing Blood Bowl in that i have purchased every single thing released from GW of Forgeworld for Blood Bowl. Im an addict. BB certainly chopped into wargaming sales this year, but im not certain how much personally.

 

Personally at my FLGS, Runewars did horrible because a bunch of guys had just jumped into AOS, and a lot of the kinks there have been worked out from what i hear and its a pretty **** solid game at this point.

 

Runewars was DOA at my shop for a number of reasons, but the biggest being AOS IMO.  Why throw money at a similar game and have to desperately hunt for an opponent, when you could dive into AOS and get a match pretty much any day of the week?

 

I personally have been looking for a tabletop wargame to jump into. Runewars never enticed me. The lore draw is not there for me. This Star Wars Legion should fill my need nicely.

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1 hour ago, Forgottenlore said:

And that was true. It wasn't until the game had been out for about a year and GW published the generals handbook that fixed most of people's complaints that AoS started to do well. That was also the point where most of the complaints stopped. Turned out that the anecdotal evidence was accurate enough that the company had to change the game to address the things people said were wrong with it.

I think the cheap Start Collecting boxes helped more.

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11 minutes ago, Guest AdmiralAndy said:

The fact is your not discussing the topic

Factually incorrect. There is no point in further responding to your attempt to police my tone rather than discuss the topic. Waste of time !

5 minutes ago, Iceeagle85 said:

I think the cheap Start Collecting boxes helped more.

There were a lot of things that GW started "doing right" more or less altogether and all of a sudden. I actually believe part of the reason is because of what we are discussing at large, right here: STAR WARS MINIATURES GAME. This also corresponds to the somewhat abrupt break-up of GW and FFG, as licensor and licensee, respectively. Not to mention, getting a new and so far fairly well received edition of Warhammer 40k out right before the summer con season took off.

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I believe GW is under new management hence the new approach to business which is more modern and customer friendly they have taken over the last year or so. AoS is in great shape now and the release and roll out of 40k 8th edition has been fantastic by most accounts that has certainly reinvigorated the Warhammer community.  GW is headed in the right direction at least for now.

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1 minute ago, DesignXception said:

I believe GW is under new management hence the new approach to business which is more modern and customer friendly they have taken over the last year or so. AoS is in great shape now and the release and roll out of 40k 8th edition has been fantastic by most accounts that has certainly reinvigorated the Warhammer community.  GW is headed in the right direction at least for now.

Their specialist games division is on fire right now. I expect Dungeon bowl to drop soon, and i wouldnt be suprised if they have things like Man o War coming down the pipeline.

 

They seriously underestimated the response to Blood Bowl, and it blew them out of the water. They had to do reprints of dice/pitches etc since there was not even close to enough supply. They sold out in the first 15 minutes of pre orders.

 

GW Specialist games are going to make a huge comeback over the next couple years. GW is finally aware of the huge cash cow they have been sitting on for decades and ready to take advantage.  They have my wallet wide open for the specialist games.

 

That said, i have no desire to buy into their tabletop wargames. Star Wars Legion on the other hand will have my wallet wide open.

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Guest AdmiralAndy
1 hour ago, Manchu said:

Factually incorrect. There is no point in further responding to your attempt to police my tone rather than discuss the topic. Waste of time !

 

About the scale question your lecturing not discussing, I would also point out that in my initial post I referenced there are already dozens of posts about the scale difference issue and didn't see the need for anymore, you decided to do that anyway *sigh*.

You said that was already clear and if stated already no point FFG to make further statement regarding this.

 

An opinion has been stated, given the dozens of posts by indignant IA owners a factual explanation from FFG would re-engage some alienated consumers rather than the negativity they have been expressing.

 

You've made your opinion quite clear, I'm waiting to hear more facts from FFG, not further supposition from another forum member.

 

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48 minutes ago, DesignXception said:

Yes...the announcement of Legion should not surprise anyone.....this was coming for a while now.

I'm gonna be honest, it surprised the crap out of me.  Shouldn't have, but it did.  But in such a pleasant way.

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30 minutes ago, Zeelobby said:

I mean to be fair RW still only has like 2.5 factions available. My group said no purchase til options. It'll be the same with Legion.

No it wont. Because Legion is totally different. The Command will have a huge impact on how the team as a whole plays. So essentially all they have to do for wave one is add in one more commander for each faction, and boom there are already 4 styles of teams to field at launch. A Luke led Rebel team would function much differently than a Han solo led rebel team for example.

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7 minutes ago, JoeVandal49 said:

No it wont. Because Legion is totally different. The Command will have a huge impact on how the team as a whole plays. So essentially all they have to do for wave one is add in one more commander for each faction, and boom there are already 4 styles of teams to field at launch. A Luke led Rebel team would function much differently than a Han solo led rebel team for example.

Except coming from the non-X-Wing tabletop side of wargaming, people like to have their own factions. Sure I can switch out a Warcaster in Warmachine and my army will play differently, but nobody would have signed on with only Khador and Cygnar as the two options. It is important to many tabletop wargamers. Which is why I hope they expand Legion fast and why I think it's premature to say anything about RW at this point. 

Edited by Zeelobby

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7 minutes ago, JoeVandal49 said:

No it wont. Because Legion is totally different. The Command will have a huge impact on how the team as a whole plays. So essentially all they have to do for wave one is add in one more commander for each faction, and boom there are already 4 styles of teams to field at launch. A Luke led Rebel team would function much differently than a Han solo led rebel team for example.

That's pure speculation, and most likely false.

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