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Mikael Hasselstein

How I am accepting Legion's Scale

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Like so many, I had also been hoping for a more epic scale for Legion. But let's assist one another through the stages of grief towards acceptance.

There are decent reasons why Legion should be at the skirmish scale, rather than at the mass epic combat scale.

1. Figure compatibility with Imperial Assault.

While I've also seen that the miniatures are a little off, it doesn't strike me that they are so prohibitively off that you cannot cross-use them. People with IA collections can use their minis for Legion, and also integrate Legion miniatures into their games of Imperial Assault. If you think that the <10% difference is prohibitive, that's on you.

2. Nature of the Galactic Civil War.

The Galactic Civil War simply is not like the US Civil War, WWI or WWII where regular uniformed armies face off against one another, with pitched epic battles determining the outcome of the war. It is about a galactic military hegemon fighting against a small insurgency, whose uniformed military only has the symbols of a legitimate military force.

3. Skirmish-level games are probably just more popular.

I am not sure of the measured accuracy of this, but I'm guessing that games at the scale of Legion are probably just more attractive to most players. GW tried both, and 40K just always seemed to stay on top of whatever Epic stuff they were doing. Ultimately, FFG wants to produce a product which more people will buy. Those of us who wanted something more epic just need to realize that we're probably in the (vocal) minority.

The issue, I think, with both Legion (and Armada) is that they are named in order to sell more than they are named to accurately portray the scales of the games. I do think that they might have preserved the term Legion for a possible future game of fitting scale, but I assume FFG's marketing department knows what it's doing.

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8 minutes ago, patox said:

Let's see if Imperial Assault miniatures will be allowed in Legion events.

That's kind of a passive way of stating it. What is allowed or not can really be up to local TOs in your community. You can also decide to be a TO in your community and allow IA model if you so choose.

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12 minutes ago, Kentares said:

Wasnt his question about official FFG events!?

There's official events and then there's official events. Everything from Regionals down will usually be handled by local stores or community volunteers. There's no FFG Police Division that busts in the door and arrests anyone who doesn't play like you're supposed to. Nationals might be a bit different depending where you live, but where I'm at even those are ran by the community, the distributor only provides access to the prize kits. So unless you plan on playing at FFG HQ or at Worlds or some other event that is ran by paid FFG employees, everything's a matter of talking it out with your TO/players.

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7 minutes ago, player1750031 said:

There's official events and then there's official events. Everything from Regionals down will usually be handled by local stores or community volunteers. There's no FFG Police Division that busts in the door and arrests anyone who doesn't play like you're supposed to. Nationals might be a bit different depending where you live, but where I'm at even those are ran by the community, the distributor only provides access to the prize kits. So unless you plan on playing at FFG HQ or at Worlds or some other event that is ran by paid FFG employees, everything's a matter of talking it out with your TO/players.

It doesnt need FFG Police Division. All it takes is a rules lawyering player (and you cant blame him for being right) that will point out that the FFG rules doesnt allow IA minis in Legion... youll see... Seems you dont know how half of the miniatures players behave in a tournament environment.

But im willing to give you the benefit of doubt and well talk about this in less than 1 year from now.

Edited by Kentares

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22 minutes ago, Kentares said:

Wasnt his question about official FFG events!?

Perhaps that was indeed his intention, but so what? He didn't make a Venn diagram spelling that out.

4 minutes ago, player1750031 said:

There's official events and then there's official events. Everything from Regionals down will usually be handled by local stores or community volunteers. There's no FFG Police Division that busts in the door and arrests anyone who doesn't play like you're supposed to. Nationals might be a bit different depending where you live, but where I'm at even those are ran by the community, the distributor only provides access to the prize kits. So unless you plan on playing at FFG HQ or at Worlds or some other event that is ran by paid FFG employees, everything's a matter of talking it out with your TO/players.

What @player1750031 said. Officially-sanctioned events are very rare. Even Store Championships are relaxed-level, and those are a small subset of all tournaments being played.

2 minutes ago, Kentares said:

It doesnt need FFG Police Division. All it takes is a rules lawyering player that will point out that the FFG rules doesnt allow IA minis in Legion... youll see... Seems you dont know how half of the miniatures players behave in a tournament environment.

TOs have the option of stating rules at the outset - in event advertisements even. At that point, rules lawyers have no ground to stand on. I don't know, maybe your community of tournament goers is different from mine. In my community, rules lawyers and people bellyaching about things like that are generally not in control of things, and haven't made a fuss in my experience of running events in my area.

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1 hour ago, Kentares said:

It doesnt need FFG Police Division. All it takes is a rules lawyering player (and you cant blame him for being right) that will point out that the FFG rules doesnt allow IA minis in Legion... youll see... Seems you dont know how half of the miniatures players behave in a tournament environment.

But im willing to give you the benefit of doubt and well talk about this in less than 1 year from now.

I've been playing IA competitively since the game was released, so that's what, pushing on three years now. I have also played competitive Warhammer Fantasy, Warhammer 40k, X-Wing, Magic The Gathering, World of Warcraft TCG, Dice Masters, Hordes/Warmachine and Destiny. I might be forgetting a couple still. I've also been a TO and a tournament judge myself on several occasions, both privately and as a game store employee. So I'd appreciate it if you didn't patronize me.

If your player community cannot handle one guy being a douchebag, that's not on the tournament regulations, the games designer, the game publisher etc. It's squarely on said player community for not being able to collectively put on their big boy pants and handle the issue instead of being held hostage by 'That Guy'. Grow some social skills and iron it out with your players.

Edited by player1750031

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Guest KennGP

You're right of course, a guy actually expecting a tournament to follow the rules and who has spent good money buying the correct and rules sanctioned minis for the game is a total jerk for expecting the TO to enforce the other players to do the same. Why not just allow 40k Imperial Guard, or a Cygnar Warmachine army? Once you open a door like that, it's hard to close it.

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18 minutes ago, Guest KennGP said:

You're right of course, a guy actually expecting a tournament to follow the rules and who has spent good money buying the correct and rules sanctioned minis for the game is a total jerk for expecting the TO to enforce the other players to do the same. Why not just allow 40k Imperial Guard, or a Cygnar Warmachine army? Once you open a door like that, it's hard to close it.

Ah, a slippery-slope reductio ad absurdum argument. Well done!

Any TO will create an event that (s)he thinks will garner support in the community, so as to bring people out. To that end, when they create and advertise the event, they should post the restrictions and allowances to which they plan to adhere.

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Yeah, you got me, proxying in a Cygnar Long Gunner on a 30mm base for a Star Wars Stormtrooper on a 25mm base is exactly the same as swapping in a Star Wars Stormtrooper on a 25mm base for a Star Wars Stormtrooper on a 25mm base.

Okay, you can get your hypothetical person that feels that strongly about 'sanctioned models'. It seems unreasonable to me that any grown up would make a fuss about swapping a 25mm base Stormtrooper for a 25mm base Stormtrooper that's 2mm shorter, but okay, you can have him. But then I'll have a different guy that's handicapped so that he cannot paint at all. He can still play and did due dilligence by purchasing all the relevant Legion products, but wants to sub in IA Stormtroopers because he had them painted on commision. So what now? You ban him? You ban the other guy? You ban them both?

Or maybe all three of you can put on your big boy pants and act like reasonable adults instead of making an epic drama out of missing 2mm worth of Stormtrooper helmet? I know gamers are stereotypically socially inept, but I do believe even gamers have the capacity to sit down and talk things out and play a game with toy soldiers without anyone pulling a tantrum.

Edited by player1750031

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15 minutes ago, player1750031 said:

Yeah, you got me, proxying in a Cygnar Long Gunner on a 30mm base for a Star Wars Stormtrooper on a 25mm base is exactly the same as swapping in a Star Wars Stormtrooper on a 25mm base for a Star Wars Stormtrooper on a 25mm base.

Okay, you can get your hypothetical person that feels that strongly about 'sanctioned models'. It seems unreasonable to me that any grown up would make a fuss about swapping a 25mm base Stormtrooper for a 25mm base Stormtrooper that's 2mm shorter, but okay, you can have him. But then I'll have a different guy that's handicapped so that he cannot paint at all. He can still play and did due dilligence by purchasing all the relevant Legion products, but wants to sub in IA Stormtroopers because he had them painted on commision. So what now? You ban him? You ban the other guy? You ban them both?

Or maybe all three of you can put on your big boy pants and act like reasonable adults instead of making an epic drama out of missing 2mm worth of Stormtrooper helmet? I know gamers are stereotypically socially inept, but I do believe even gamers have the capacity to sit down and talk things out and play a game with toy soldiers without anyone pulling a tantrum.

Exactly.
And I understand the "we want to sell the new game, so buy it god am it" point of view from FFG (ho and "poor company trying to make money" and all that)...
But they should be clear on the IA players issue with this. They for lots of them feels kind of cheated by this move on their part. And the issue is important, even if just for the image of the company.

And yes, because lots of players commissioned IA figures, or invested themselves in and such. And it's not that they don't want in on the fun.
But let's face it, even spending so much as the core box is already a luxury at that price for lots of player...

So yes, lots of us are wondering about FFG...

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2 minutes ago, Guest Shameful Display said:


So yes, lots of us are wondering about FFG...

But the, lots of us aren't. There's no way of knowing how many are genuinely put off by this, since the basic nature of things is that people that aren't unhappy tend to stay silent.

Anecdotally, locally we are all very happy and we mostly all have complete, painted IA collections. Elsewhere this appears to not be the case.

Ultimately it is what it is, and people will need to decide whether the game is for them or not (this includes the "not pre painted" issue too tbh).

I suspect it'll be massively popular amongst IA players as well as outside that group, but time will tell.

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2 minutes ago, NatKayz said:

Do we know the bases are the same? I expected legion to have special bases to work with the manoeuvre tool. 

They aren't the same as IA. They are the raised round ones you can see in vids and pictures, and vehicles are on bases with a slot for the movement tool.

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7 minutes ago, NatKayz said:

Do we know the bases are the same? I expected legion to have special bases to work with the manoeuvre tool. 

Infantry bases are the same diameter, but a bit taller. They're not special in any way, the tool is just a concave edge that slots in around the convex of the base. Vehicle bases are indeed special and incompatible with IA basing.

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3 hours ago, player1750031 said:

Infantry bases are the same diameter, but a bit taller. They're not special in any way, the tool is just a concave edge that slots in around the convex of the base. Vehicle bases are indeed special and incompatible with IA basing.

The Legion bases are a bit bigger I believe. 32mm instead of 25mm. That makes them a bit too big to fit on an IA board, but it probably won't cause too much of an issue with using IA miniatures for Legion.
I think I might be rebasing my Legion miniatures anyway because the thick bases they come with look weird, but I'd have to see them in person to be sure. I'll keep the correct diameter of course. 

Scale is a bigger problem. The IA troopers are noticeably smaller. Characters probably don't matter as much, but you don't want Vader being shorter than a Stormtrooper standing next to him. 

That being said, it's easy enough to put the Legion miniatures on 25mm bases so they fit IA. Then you'll have some nicer looking IA miniatures. I'm tempted to do that for some of the troopers and rangers because in IA, they are all the same miniature and the same pose. 

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8 hours ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

 

3. Skirmish-level games are probably just more popular.

I am not sure of the measured accuracy of this, but I'm guessing that games at the scale of Legion are probably just more attractive to most players. GW tried both, and 40K just always seemed to stay on top of whatever Epic stuff they were doing. Ultimately, FFG wants to produce a product which more people will buy. Those of us who wanted something more epic just need to realize that we're probably in the (vocal) minority.

The issue, I think, with both Legion (and Armada) is that they are named in order to sell more than they are named to accurately portray the scales of the games. I do think that they might have preserved the term Legion for a possible future game of fitting scale, but I assume FFG's marketing department knows what it's doing.

I don't see why people are taking like legion is such a small scale game. It's way bigger than IA.

Here is how I look at it. In IA army is 20 stormtroopers big (2 points for a single trooper, 40 points in an army.) 

Meanwhile, In Legion an army is 72 stormtroopers big (11 points for a single trooper, 800 points in an army.)

(I know neither game can meet you have a team of just single troopers like that, but that's just to give an idea of scale.)

Plus, in Armada, they raised the size of a standard fleet from 300 to 400  when the second wave hit. They may be planning something similar here. I can easily imagine an increase to 1,000 points (maybe along with an At-At release.)

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I expect that the core set will include unit cards and upgrade cards for various units. So, showing up for an event with a IA stormtrooper with heavy weapon will probably gain some comments from Legion players who don't have such a model yet. In general I think that no one will mind too much as long as you don't take advantage of them. Same problem with LOS, if my opponent is fair about playing shorter models then I will be OK too. But again, take advantage of me and I'll put my hand up for the proxy so darn fast your head will spin.

I think it is also worth considering what would happen if a player showed up to an IA event with Legion kit, would that be an issue or a non-event?

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6 hours ago, poke450 said:

In casual, people can do what they want, but there is line of sight rules in play, so smaller models would seem to have an advantage more often then not.

Easily solved in the manner of Infinity with a gabarit marker.

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13 hours ago, Inquisitorsz said:

Scale is a bigger problem. The IA troopers are noticeably smaller. Characters probably don't matter as much, but you don't want Vader being shorter than a Stormtrooper standing next to him. 

Given that Darth Vader comes with Legion's core set, this is not a problem at all. Everyone who has a core set will have a Legion-sized Darth Vader, and will not have to substitute an Imperial Assault Vader model. Instead, if you really want Darth Vader dwarfing the stormtroopers around him, you can substitute in your masses of IA stormtroopers, who will be a little smaller than the Legion stormtroopers.

So, your stormtrooper-to-Vader scaling ratio argument is one that serves the notion of allowing Imperial Assault models into Legion (and vice versa), rather than the other way around.

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Guest Mike

So has it been confirmed as to what the scale actually is? If so what is it? And what is IA?

I'm sure if they are different then characters such as IG88 could be easily used in both. The problem will come from mixing stromtroppers. 

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